Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

[bespangeled]

Anya, of course. She was powerful and over 1000 years old, considered a star of the Vengeance Demons by D'hoffryn. But she fell in love with Xander and never even tried to get her powers back. She became almost human, so she could trust herself not to hurt him, and Xander would love her back. She gave up everything for completely selfish reasons.

Angel gave it all up for Buffy. He spent an entire century in hell, enduring incredible pain and torment. But he was willing to do that for love of Buffy - to make sure she was safe. It was just for Buffy, to save her from who he has been and how he has hurt her. He was incredibly selfish. After all, he didn't even seem to care about the world.

Faith was kind of an expert on this - as well as destroying out of hate. Hell, with the mayor she gave up her entire moral sense for pretty toys and affection, a semblance of love. She murdered 3 men, and then she tried to impress Angel by turning herself in and going to jail. Buffy had nothing to do with this really. Faith is a murderer, but only Buffy really matters enough for redemption? No, the only thing is Buffy is close to Angel. No, Faith gave up her freedom because she loved Angel and it was what she knew he wanted. He was going to ask her to do it after all.

Willow quit her overwhelming dark magic addiction for the love of Tara - but blew up the world when Tara wasn't there. Clearly her reformation was purely selfish. Oh, and then Willow later sought help after loosing control. She wanted to be a certain kind of person, a person who can be trusted not to hurt all the people she loved.

Giles gave up everything he was after he poisoned Buffy, and put her in danger. A father's love for the child, yeah?

I think I an come up with lots of example - and, oh yeah. The vampire who went around the world to get a soul - for the same reason the others did - that incredible selfish motivation of loving someone.

 

[Wildfly]

Everyone seems pretty selfish 🙂
What about Buffy's sacrifice for Dawn?
(But ouch, maybe it was the effect of the monks brainwashing her to protect the key at all costs)
Then Darla. Darla's sacrifice for Connor. That was real selfless, right?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Anya, of course. She was powerful and over 1000 years old, considered a star of the Vengeance Demons by D'hoffryn. But she fell in love with Xander and never even tried to get her powers back. She became almost human, so she could trust herself not to hurt him, and Xander would love her back. She gave up everything for completely selfish reasons.

Is this right? I thought she became human, tried and failed to get her powers back and then fell in love with Xander. She didn't became almost human so she could trust herself not to hurt him, she was robbed of her power and became that.

Angel gave it all up for Buffy. He spent an entire century in hell, enduring incredible pain and torment. But he was willing to do that for love of Buffy -

He had no choice. It was not his will that kept him there. He was sent there by her. He didnt volunteer to stay, he couldnt get out. Wasn't it the PTB that freed him?
 
@Wildfly "But the moment she desires, she is hired again. She didn't want to. Cos of Xander." When was this?

 

[Wildfly]

I meant after she broke up with Xander she became a vegenance demon again.


(That is, she didn't want her powers back while she was happy with Xander)

It was easy to get her job back.
Which is funny, because in the Wish D'hoffryn outright refuses her, but then later takes her back. Maybe he became senile.

EDIT: oops. In Doppelgangland. I mean he refuses her then. Maybe it's not just D'hoffryn who became senile.

 

[bespangeled]

Is this right? I thought she became human, tried and failed to get her powers back and then fell in love with Xander. She didn't became almost human so she could trust herself not to hurt him, she was robbed of her power and became that.

Do you really think that Anya couldn't have gotten her job back at any time? Hell, he offered it to Willow. But one she fell in love she never tried to get it back. She gave it up for love.

He had no choice. It was not his will that kept him there. He was sent there by her. He didnt volunteer to stay, he couldnt get out. Wasn't it the PTB that freed him?

He could have pushed Buffy away and run. Simple enough. But he loved her, so he stayed and was sucked into hell. Unless this is all just accidental and Angel had no desire for redemption, it was just forced on him again. I'm really not sure you can say love of Buffy made him give up the rat eating, though. He had never even spoken to her.

I meant after she broke up with Xander she became a vegenance demon again.

Yup! She was selfish t have withheld vengeance just because she had it good.😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He could have pushed Buffy away and run. Simple enough. But he loved her, so he stayed and was sucked into hell.

He didn't know what was going on. At that point the soul was treated as amnesia. That's why he was confused. The last thing he remembered was having the sex with her. Or at least thats how I always interpreted it. He certainly didn't play it like he was aware of what was going on when he was re-ensouled. And maybe that's on David's early wooden acting, but.. he still seemed oblivious to what was going on.

Do you really think that Anya couldn't have gotten her job back at any time?

If she could get her job back at any time then why didnt she? Why did she have to resort to tempting Willow with dark magic in an attempt to open a portal to another reality to bring her amulet back to her. She didn't love Xander then. She was still trying to get her powers back. I don't think she couldnt get them back, it was shown she couldnt get them back.

 

[bespangeled]

He didn't know what was going on. At that point the soul was treated as amnesia. That's why he was confused. The last thing he remembered was having the sex with her. Or at least thats how I always interpreted it. He certainly didn't play it like he was aware of what was going on when he was re-ensouled. And maybe that's on David's early wooden acting, but.. he still seemed oblivious to what was going on.

So Angel gave nothing up or Buffy -he had absolutely no control. This is definitely not a matter of sacrificing his entire self for love. So - Angel was unselfish - not changing and giving something up for love? He didn't seek redemption, he just got Hoovered.😳

I know he loved Buffy - I guess I would say that he sought to do good and help others because he loved Buffy. It didn't happen until he was with her. So his redemption is kinda meaningless since he did it for love. Change has to be of pure and unselfish motives, but Angel wanted her to love him back.

This is actually an interesting lens to look through. By this standard, all of Angel's actions and choices are tainted because Angel is not selfless. He loves Buffy, and he wants her to love him. so he does whatever she would want him to do. His presence in the group is divisive.....trope!

If she could get her job back at any time then why didnt she? Why did she have to resort to tempting Willow with dark magic in an attempt to open a portal to another reality to bring her amulet back to her. She didn't love Xander then. She was still trying to get her powers back. I don't think she couldnt get them back, it was shown she couldnt get them back.

Ah, she fell in love, and gave up trying. She gave all that up for love of Xander. Obviously she could get her powers back - after all she did become a demon again once the love turned out to be a lie. I've always felt bad for Anya. 1000 years of listening to scorned women and she still let herself trust..

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So - Angel was unselfish - not changing and giving something up for love? He didn't seek redemption, he just got Hoovered.😳

I wouldn't call it unselfish as much as ignorant. I think if he KNEW what was happening then you can either call him selfish or unselfish. He was, as far as I am concerned, just unaware.

Ah, she fell in love, and gave up trying. She gave all that up for love of Xander.

The only thing she gave up, as you just said, was trying. She said screw it, I'm a human again, might as well get some kicks. She didn't give up her powers. She lost hope in ever getting them back and settled for Xander instead.


as an aside, I do appreciate you not copying and pasting a metric ton of screenplay at me! I actually READ what you say instead of just :skip:

 

[bespangeled]

I wouldn't call it unselfish as much as ignorant. I think if he KNEW what was happening then you can either call him selfish or unselfish. He was, as far as I am concerned, just unaware.

Ignorant works for me. The topic is the characters who gave it up or love. The topic has been wound through many threads but I never actually took other characters and look at their big changes and who they love. It surprises me to see how often that was used, and how some characters are rejected as selfish for changing because of love. Spike is the usual topic, though Willow and some others have been called on it.

I was willing to say Angel did what he did for love - but I can see where ignorant is probably more accurate.

The only thing she gave up, as you just said, was trying. She said screw it, I'm a human again, might as well get some kicks. She didn't give up her powers. She lost hope in ever getting them back and settled for Xander instead.

Until she got together with Xander, she was still trying - and she hated every bit of human life. Once she was in love she made the choice of letting herself become human (which is apparently a process and not a moment) and give it all up. Then, whe she goes back she has changed too much and can no longer do it.

as an aside, I do appreciate you not copying and pasting a metric ton of screenplay at me! I actually READ what you say instead of just :skip:

Only one metric ton? 😀

 

[Lyri]

Anya gave up trying to get her powers back LONG before she fell in love with Xander. We don't see her trying again, at all, after her stint with Willow. That had nothing to do with Xander and everything to do with the fact that D'Hoffryn very pointedly turned her down:


D'Hoffryn: (resolutely) Do not ask again.

Anya: (shocked) But... But I...

D'Hoffryn: (sternly interrupts) Your powers were a gift of the lower
beings. You have proved unworthy of them.

Anya: I was robbed of them.

D'Hoffryn: By your carelessness.

Anya: (dramatically) For a thousand years I wielded the powers of The
Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth
destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared
and worshipped across the mortal globe. (disgustedly) And now I'm stuck
at Sunnydale High. (despondently) Mortal. Child. And I'm flunking math.

D'Hoffryn: (dismissingly) This is no concern of ours. You will live out
your mortal life and die.

Anya: (pleadingly) Give me another chance. You can fold the fabric of
time. Send me back to that place and I'll change it. I won't fail again.

D'Hoffryn: Your time is passed.

Anya: (desperately) Do you have any idea how boring twelfth graders
are? (stands up) I'm getting my power center back. (defiantly) And if
you won't help me, then, by the pestilent gods, I will find someone who
will!


Probably because she had nothing to offer him at that moment. When he came to her in 'Hells Bells', she was hurt, humiliated, angry, and he probably thought he would get a lot from her. Sadly, he was wrong.

As for Angel, he didn't really have a choice in being sent to hell, did he? He might claim that he 'signaled her with his eyes', but he wasn't really in his right mind when all that was going on, and Buffy didn't exactly say 'I'm going to run you through with this sword, so close your eyes so that your surprised. There wasn't a choice there.

 

[bespangeled]

Probably because she had nothing to offer him at that moment. When he came to her in 'Hells Bells', she was hurt, humiliated, angry, and he probably thought he would get a lot from her. Sadly, he was wrong.

As for Angel, he didn't really have a choice in being sent to hell, did he? He might claim that he 'signaled her with his eyes', but he wasn't really in his right mind when all that was going on, and Buffy didn't exactly say 'I'm going to run you through with this sword, so close your eyes so that your surprised. There wasn't a choice there.

So neither of them made big changes just for love?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So neither of them made big changes just for love?

Angel made a big change for love when he left for LA. And when he made the deal with W&H.

 

[Lyri]

I think it depends on what your idea of 'selfish' is.

You could say that Angel was selfish for leaving Buffy in 'Graduation Day' because he didn't want to risk the possibility of losing his soul again.

He was also selfish in not giving Connor up for adoption or something. He knew that bringing a child into his world would be dangerous, and yet he didn't it anyway, he risked Connor's life by keeping him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

You could say that Angel was selfish for leaving Buffy in 'Graduation Day' because he didn't want to risk the possibility of losing his soul again.

Or that he was unselfish because he gave up what he wanted to make sure he would never hurt her again.

He was also selfish in not giving Connor up for adoption or something. He knew that bringing a child into his world would be dangerous, and yet he didn't it anyway, he risked Connor's life by keeping him.

He protected Connor by keeping him. They could have done any kind of locating spell to find the kid, or just use old fashioned detective work to see where he was put up for adoption. The only thing that kept Connor safe was Holtz.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Oz had a good thing going with Willow but gave it up to travel the world searching for a cure for his lycanthropy. He came back able to avoid the change until he found out that Tara and Willow were playmates of the sexual kind and Willow had moved on.

 

[bespangeled]

Angel made a big change for love when he left for LA. And when he made the deal with W&H.

Left for LA - yeah, I can see that. Connor may well be the epitome of doing something for love. So both are, according to the OP very selfish acts. He did both things because he loved someone, and not for pure reasons.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

not for pure reasons.

What do you consider pure reasons? The only pure reasons are accidents. Any time you think on a course of action it is influenced by outside stimuli thus becoming impure, as your mindset, desires, history, thoughts and expectations 'taint' the decision and the reason for the action.

 

[bespangeled]

Or that he was unselfish because he gave up what he wanted to make sure he would never hurt her again.

Nope - if there is a person you love involved then the act is now selfish. This is, as I said, a frequent judgement about Spike, as well as both Willow and a few others. Yes, I can see how doing something to keep someone you love safe could be seen as selfless, but you have to higher motive. You're only doing it to please another person because you want them to care about you.
 

What do you consider pure reasons? The only pure reasons are accidents. Any time you think on a course of action it is influenced by outside stimuli thus becoming impure, as your mindset, desires, history, thoughts and expectations 'taint' the decision and the reason for the action.

Myself - not really sure. As I understand it, changing in some positive way, doing something special, because you love someone is doing it for selfish reasons because you only want the other person to care about you. It's not about seeing the entire world and sacrificing your self for completely selfless reasons.

I agree that all choice is influenced - but that is not the judgement I've seen in several threads. I decided it would be interesting to look at the other characters and see how many of the actions - the big ones - are done for love and how many are purely selfless. Then I am trying to flip the whole selfish/unselfish lens to get the picture seen through other eyes.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Buffy working at Doublemeat to keep Dawn. Pretty selfless

 

[Blaze]

The two most "selfish" sacrifices in the series were both made for family I think. One was Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn. The other was Angel wiping everyone's memory for Connor. But like Lyri said, depends on your idea of selfish, cause both of those decision could also be considered completely selfless.