Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

[bespangeled]

Ironically at the time Spike didn't know this, he really did think it was all his soul making him crazy.
And yeah, lying by ommision if somebody says 'you're not telling me everything' and then going out of your way to obscure the fact- see attacking Anya, etc- is still lying.
Like Angel wasn't being honest in S1 up until Buffy found out that he was a vampire- he wasn't being fully truthful, for reasons.



He couldn't run away is what I mean. He was standing there, he could gesture and touch, but he couldn't make a run for it like it was claimed.

What if it isn't their damn business?


BUFFY
I just don't know what you've changed
into. You come back to town, you
make with the big surprises -
twice - and I don't know what your
game is, Spike, but I know - there's
something you're not telling me.

SPIKE
You're right.....There is. But we're not best friends
anymore, so too bad for me - I'm not
sharing.

Spike wasn't lying - he told Buffy he had something he hadn't told her and he didn't want to share it with her. Anya was gonna blab and Spike prevented her. Any person has the right to privacy and to share what they want, when they want, to whom they want.

As for Angel - kind of a big thing not telling the vampire slayer that you are a vampire.

 

[thetopher]

What if it isn't their damn business?

Quote all you wants but if Spike wants to work/ally himself with somebody he had previously attacked then it's her right to know- for her peace of mind.
Besides the fact that Spike is mentally unstable. Buffy still has a right to know.

Anya was gonna blab and Spike prevented her.

You mean when Spike attacked her then attacked Buffy? Yeah, he 'prevented' them from learning his little secret. What a hero. Or, y'know, asshole. Coin-toss really.

Spike wasn't lying - he told Buffy he had something he hadn't told her and he didn't want to share it with her.

Again, if Spike wants to ally himself with Buffy- given what he did to her in the past- then its in both their interests if he tells her. Since their hunting some beastie or other and trust might be, y'know' important.

As for Angel - kind of a big thing not telling the vampire slayer that you are a vampire.

'But its none of Buffy's damn business.' right? 🙄 (that's for the clear double-standard)

One could at least argue that a complete stranger blurting out that he's a mortal enemy of the slayer is kinda understandable. Still, I would indeed call in a lie- but then Angel is still feeling his way from 30 years of living in alleys and avioding people because of all the self-loathing- so the circumstances make it understandable.

Spike, on the other hand 'got his soul for Buffy' (its the S7 tag-line!), so his reticence is far more puzzling.

 

[bespangeled]

Quote all you wants but if Spike wants to work/ally himself with somebody he had previously attacked then it's her right to know- for her peace of mind.
Besides the fact that Spike is mentally unstable. Buffy still has a right to know.

Quote what?

Spike told her he was just someone with his ear to the ground. He would do anything Buffy wanted, or nothing if she wanted - and if she wanted him to leave he would. Now, had he told her about the soul right then, you would say he's manipulating - since didn't, you say he's lying. Kinda no win situation there.

You do remember that Buffy had already seen Spike babbling n the basement of crazy - if she didn't know he was unstable then she really needs a new calling.

You mean when Spike attacked her then attacked Buffy? Yeah, he 'prevented' them from learning his little secret. What a hero. Or, y'know, asshole. Coin-toss really.

You have such a girl/boy strength double standard. If Dawn had attacked Anya - no big deal. But Spike - a male - attacked Anya (who had grabbed him and wouldn't let go) and then she picked him up and threw him across the room. She's older and stronger than he is.

Oh, and Spike really can be both an asshole, and a hero - that's part of his charm. It's actually part of Angel's charm - they just do it differently. In this case, he has nothing to lose except his privacy. If Buffy or anyone else staked him it would be a relief.

Again, if Spike wants to ally himself with Buffy- given what he did to her in the past- then its in both their interests if he tells her. Since their hunting some beastie or other and trust might be, y'know' important.

He does tell her - and then he goes back to the basement of crazy for several more weeks because she is not impressed. It was her choice if she wanted him as an ally. Again - you've actually used both arguments talking about this episode😀
Telling is manipulation
Not telling is lying.
Not telling and then telling is a Machiavellian plot to control everyone😕

'But its none of Buffy's damn business.' right? 🙄 (that's for the clear double-standard)

Buffy's business is slaying vampires - so it is actually her business that Angel is lying about it. She's the Chosen one, and all that. Spike getting a soul has nothing to do with the vampire slaying gig. Not her business unless he decides to share. Again - manipulation if/when he does. Lying if/when he doesn't. Flip a coin - but no way to win.

One could at least argue that a complete stranger blurting out that he's a mortal enemy of the slayer is kinda understandable. Still, I would indeed call in a lie- but then Angel is still feeling his way from 30 years of living in alleys and avoiding people because of all the self-loathing- so the circumstances make it understandable.

Yes, Angel's lies are always understandable - he really has suffered so much in the past century (hanging out with the Rat Pack, going to Elvis's wedding, cozying up to the LV mafia, letting a paranoia demon make a hotel full of people paranoid - and then telling the demon to kill them all....because they were too paranoid.) He's 250 years old - spent the last century in an orgy of manic depression. Lots of secrets there, too - and not all that mentally stable at times. I love them both - I don't close my eyes to the aspects of their lives that don't fit my ideal image.

He's had a year with Whistler to get ready. He wanted Buffy to trust him. Hell, he made her tell him twice that she loved him before he would tell her how he tortured Dru into insanity. Angel is....well, no angel. His circumstances are no more understandable than anyone else who chooses not to reveal all their secrets. But I don't think he's lying.

Spike, on the other hand 'got his soul for Buffy' (its the S7 tag-line!), so his reticence is far more puzzling.

Yes. A character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love😀

 

[thetopher]

Quote what?

Quoting the script like you did. It's not really nessesary.

Spike told her he was just someone with his ear to the ground.

He came directly into her home and offered her help under false pretences. What if Spike had lost his shit right before 'worm boy' was about to chomp Buffy? He wants her trust but he's not willing to offer truth in return? Kinda a one-way thing is you ask me.

Now, had he told her about the soul right then, you would say he's manipulating

Oh, would I?
That is interesting because I've never said this. I've always said that he should've told her and that not telling her made no sense. It was counter-produtive to Spike's intend, idiotic and selfish.

You have such a girl/boy strength double standard.

No I don't. I have this thing about unprovoked assault (Spike does this to Buffy, Anya and Faith all in one season). Spike hit Anya first for no real good reason (he could've just pulled himself out of her grip given that they are of comparable stength) instead he lashes out in desperation. Dick move.

If Dawn had attacked Anya - no big deal.

Because Dawn hasn't got any superpowers. 🙄
If Buffy had hit Anya for no reason, I'd call her out on it. I even have a problem with Buffy smacking Angel in the face without provokation in 'Sanctuary' and have said as much.

Basically you don't know what you're talking about. 😛

But Spike - a male - attacked Anya (who had grabbed him and wouldn't let go)

Then he should've pulled her hand off, since I don't consider grabbing (especially in this instance) as any form of aggressive attack. She was asking him a question and he responded with violence.

Oh, and Spike really can be both an asshole, and a hero

Really? You seem to make a much of excuses for his clearly asshole-ish behaviour and challenge people who don't see it the way you do.

Again - you've actually used both arguments talking about this episode😀
Telling is manipulation
Not telling is lying.

When have I ever said that Spike was being manipulative in this episode?
Later on? Sure, he manipulates Buffy as surely as the day is long but this episode? Never said it. What you might be refering to is when I said that the end scene is gross manipulation by the writers.
That's not Spike's fault but its still, emotionally, a hollow episode for me.

Buffy's business is slaying vampires - so it is actually her business that Angel is lying about it.

No, he's just there to help with info or the occasional life save-age. Not her business beyond him being a shadowy ally. Whistler told Angel to go help the girl, not to confess all about a complex, morally grey, situation in hopes that the vampire slayer wouldn't stake him before the end of his story.

Angel is trying to help Buffy in a 'non-selfish' capacity because he doesn't want to get emotional involved with her. He fails but he still tries. His motives is a perfect example of non-selfish love. 😀

Spike getting a soul has nothing to do with the vampire slaying gig.

Which has everything to do with Buffy because Spike is in Sunnydale specifically because of her and also (from her perspective) Spike has attacked her in the past, so everything about him is her business if they want to partner up again.
Otherwise he should f**k off back to him basement.

Again - manipulation if/when he does. Lying if/when he doesn't. Flip a coin - but no way to win.

Never said it. Spike should've told her the truth, that's been my position for a while.

Yes, Angel's lies are always understandable

Actually I disagree.
Example: when Angel lied about not sleeping with Darla and that (rather selfish, questionable) decision came back to bie him in S3 its entirely justified to see Angel squirm.
Example 2: Connor lied to his son when he secretly went to see Holtz. Came back to bite him in the ass the very next episode. Cordelia even warned him.

Yes. A character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

'To be what she deserves.' Or to get in a girl's pants.
I'm with Angel on this one. 😀

 

[Silverspike]

"Really? You seem to make a much of excuses for his clearly asshole-ish behaviour and challenge people who don't see it the way you do."

Come on now, isn't that what you've been known to do now and again? Is your view really the only one?

If we all went around constantly ragging on Faith and her fans wouldn't you respond?

 

[thetopher]

Come on now, isn't that what you've been known to do now and again?

Actually I posted a thread about 'Moments where you hate your favourite character' for precisely this purpose.
And yes, Faith (and Buffy, Giles, Angel and Wesley) was on there because there are moments were she is a jerk/evil/horrible. Buffy is also a favourite character of mine but I won't deny that she has faults, and can do some pretty stupid/horrible things (and I'm not talking about Spike 😉).

I don't deny that sort of thing, but I've seen some truly astonishing arguments made in defense of Spike and his actions.

Is your view really the only one?

Nope.

If we all went around constantly ragging on Faith and her fans wouldn't you respond?

People aren't 'ragging on' Spike (nor all his fans), but if you critize him in the slightest they you tend to be nearly constantly badgered, challenged, have your arguments distorted and called a hater. At least in my experience.

There are posters who dislike Faith (for example)- who say that the actress playing her is crap, that her arc is weak, that she didn't atone enough for the evils she commited, etc.
People can disagree (or even agree to disagree) respectfully.

 

[Silverspike]

"At least in my experience."

Which differs from mine of course because I haven't seen that. Not in the way you're describing anyway. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

Which differs from mine of course because I haven't seen that.

Oh, really?

See here: https://www.buffy-boards.com/threads/change-one-thing-in-s5.55182/page-7

@jom and @gite63 posts, which you 'liked'. So I'm guessing you must've seen them. 😉


After checking that 'scene wheres you hated your favourite character' only @Smile Time and @sosa lola ever mentioned something about Spike. They also tend to have a more balanced view of his strengths and faults- from the comments I've read of theirs.

 

[Silverspike]

Look I get you have a certain view about Spike and his fans but to be honest I don't really care. 🙂

And as for balance how often do you se me go around trying to have a dig at other folks fav characters?

I pretty much love all the characters and love how the TV seasons panned out. I don't think you've ever seen me keep harping over what should have been and how I don't like about certain characters or their fanbase.

Live and let live imo.

 

[bespangeled]

Basically you don't know what you're talking about. 😛

Really? You seem to make a much of excuses for his clearly asshole-ish behaviour and challenge people who don't see it the way you do.

People aren't 'ragging on' Spike (nor all his fans), but if you critize him in the slightest they you tend to be nearly constantly badgered, challenged, have your arguments distorted and called a hater. At least in my experience.

Does not sound like you're really up for much rational discussion here.

People can disagree (or even agree to disagree) respectfully.

Yeah - we've done it in the past. Maybe sometimes in the future.

 

[Fuffy]

It was not Spike, it was obvious that he just wanted to get into Buffy's pants.

Even thought Spike's morality never really changed, he somehow managed to stay awesome (except for the AR).

After checking that 'scene wheres you hated your favourite character' only @Smile Time and @sosa lola ever mentioned something about Spike. They also tend to have a more balanced view of his strengths and faults- from the comments I've read of theirs.

It's nice to find out that my views on one of my favorite characters are considered balanced 😉

 

[nightshade]

Can we keep to the discussion and not nit pick at each other please. If you can't talk about one character without insults then move on to a different one that you can have a reasonable discussion about.

 

[thetopher]

Does not sound like you're really up for much rational discussion here.

I answered all your points respectfully enough. Did I put words in your mouth? Say that you said things you didn't say?
I don't know what the problem is.

Yeah - we've done it in the past. Maybe sometimes in the future.

Whatever. TTFN.
 

Look I get you have a certain view about Spike and his fans but to be honest I don't really care.

Then just ignore what you don't care about. Probably be simpler that way right?

I don't think you've ever seen me keep harping over what should have been and how I don't like about certain characters or their fanbase.

Just the comics right? 😉

Look, I don't really want to 'harp on' about Spike, as you put it. All I do is voice my opinion and defend it if its challenged.

 

[bespangeled]

I answered all your points respectfully enough. Did I put words in your mouth? Say that you said things you didn't say?
I don't know what the problem is.

I believe you don't, which sums up the problem exactly. You may want to reread what I quoted and ask if you would consider it respectful if addressed to you.

All I do is voice my opinion and defend it if its challenged. I don't call anyone a hater, or make personal remarks about them or their fan base. We see things differently, but somewhere along the line our attempt to communicate just turns into gotcha.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Okay. FFS stop it. Everyone.

No one in this argument is blameless, and everyone here who thinks they never criticize someone else's ideas had better take a long look at their previous posts because I can tell you, it's there. So cut out the holier than thou, martyr complex bs and have a civilized discussion or leave the thread.

I'm sorry - this is a matter of interpretation. If you believe differently that's fine - but you have no right to decide what is right and what isn't.

Lighten up - she was just giving her own opinion.