Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[The Bronze]

Part of me was never keen on how Chosen ended as imo basically Buffy could be accused of doing to the potentials what the shadowmen did to the first Slayer and thats force a physical change on them without their consent.

You mean Willow not Buffy. Also Willow did have the consent of a large represntative group of potentials. It's nothing like what the shadowmen did to the first slayer.

 

[Silverspike]

Buffy thought up the plan and asked Willow to put into into action.

Also Willow did have the consent of a large represntative group of potentials

She didn't have the consent of all those thousands of young women who were activated all over the world though. Many of which would have never been activated in their life time and would have gone on to enjoy a normal life.

I remember many women in the online fandom at the time it aired being annoyed with that side of things.

 

[bespangeled]

Without a doubt, Buffy and her team did it right, and for the proper reasons. They were stopping the army of the First Evil from overrunning the world, and they pretty much accomplished that, at least as far as the ubervamps were concerned, and, with Caleb's death, the Bringers were left pretty much leaderless, at least until a new general could be recruited and conditioned (assuming, of course, that Caleb was the commander of all of the Bringer forces) Buffy's team stopped the First Evil from escaping the hellmouth, and, as we saw by the events of Dark Horse's Season 8, there were long lasting results from her actions.

Angel's team, I'm not so sure. What they did to the Senior Partners seemed more of a gesture of defiance, and a most likely suicidal one at that, than any sort of plan aimed at actually stopping any plans that they might have had. Yes, they killed all of the members of the Circle Of The Black Thorn, which apparently served as the Senior Partners' Board Of Directors for the world, but that didn't in any way stop what they were capable of doing, as was illustrated by the army of demons in the alley and the act of sending the entire Los Angeles area and its entire population to hell, as we saw later on IDE's "After The Fall" arc. Angel might have caused the Senior Partners to act prematurely on plans that they already had in place, but they were still able to act.

On the other hand...

Would the fact that the Senior Partners apparently left Earth at the end of IDE's final Spike miniseries count as an eventual victory for Angel's team? If so, then it might be argued that Angel set in motion a chain of events that culminated in what might be interpreted as the success of his plan.

Ultimately, the results of the 2 battles were that Buffy and her team pretty much stopped the First Evil and its plans to take over the world, whereas Angel just manager to stir the Senior Partners up enough to make them send a whole bunch of noncombatants to hell a bit sooner than they had originally planned to do.

Not a comic fan here, so I can't comment on the last part. I loved the Angel ending, but at the same time I see it as...self indulgent. I found it telling that he uses the Camelot phrase "For one big shinning moment" when Camelot was about having a peaceful place in a time of war. I know that Angel and company wanted to strike at the Black Thorn, but I wish they had planned it in such a way the mass civilian casualties would not be the result.

---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

Buffy thought up the plan and asked Willow to put into into action.



She didn't have the consent of all those thousands of young women who were activated all over the world though. Many of which would have never been activated in their life time and would have gone on to enjoy a normal life.

I remember many women in the online fandom at the time it aired being annoyed with that side of things.

I have to say that I agree with you. There are some cultures where a girl who showed this much strength would be immediately executed. The fact that so many were not consulted is an issue. Another choice would have been to empower only those girls who had given permission.

 

[The Bronze]

Pitching an idea is not the same as actually casting the spell. Oz pitched the idea of actacking the Mayor with humus. If Buffy had went in armed with Humus it would have been on her not Oz.

The potentials were already effected by the spell cast by the shadowmen all those years ago. It marked them out as different and as first in the firing line of The First. No one in Sunnydale had the time to call every potential on the planet and come to a decision. They asked the girls that were there and it looked unanimous to me. A representative sample is the best they could do in the time frame.

 

[Silverspike]

Sorry Whedon devised a story which had the protagonists fundamentally altering these girls bodys without their consent. Something that women today are all too familiar with.

I remember at the time some people stating it was more a metaphor for rape then empowerment.

I wouldn't go as far as that, but I can see what they meant.

 

[The Bronze]

Metaphor for rape? The potentials world wide were being murdered all year by bringers. The ones in Sunnydale by bringers, Caleb, Uber-Vamps etc. The ones in Sunnydale were desperate to be able to fight back and voted for the plan to be activated. They were already different, this just made them different and able to fight. Rape victims don't vote in favour of being raped.

 

[Silverspike]

Sorry but thats how some folks saw it. As the ultimate violation.

For women power over their own bodies has historically always been a big issue, and so to have Whedon devise a story where yet again these decisions were taken out of their hands just didn't seem all that empowering to some. I can see what they mean.

 

[The Bronze]

Each to their own I guess. I always thought the slayers with the ability to defend themselves came across as more empowered than the potentials being stabbed to death by bringers though.

 

[Silverspike]

For me some can only be empowered If they have some kind of say in whats being done to them. The girls all over the word had no idea what was going to happen to them, so imo thats far from putting across a good message.

But then as I said Buffy was making the best of the rotten cards Whedon had dealt her.

 

[white avenger]

I agree that Buffy activating all the Potentials in the world was stupid, uncaring, and downright dangerous in many ways, but, and this is just a thought that occurred to me recently, was it really Buffy's plan to affect all those girls all around the world? Her final speech on the matter, "Now every girl who COULD be a Slayer, WILL be a Slayer..." would seem to say that it was, and all of the scenes of girls suddenly becoming suddenly empowered would appear to enforce the fact, but it's quite possible that Buffy wasn't aware that Willow's spell would have such global results.

Remember what Giles first told Buffy about the Potentials? "Used to be, there were many more, but now THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL..." and those were all supposed to be heading to Sunnydale. "Only a handful," doesn't imply, to me, at least, that there are several thousand girls who will be affected. I've heard the argument that, considering the world's total population, several thousand girls could, indeed, qualify as a handful, but that is not how the expression is usually used, and it might not have been how Buffy interpreted it. I think that it is a definite possibility that Buffy actually thought that all, or at least most, of the Potentials actually were in Sunnydale at the time that the activation spell was cast. That being the case, Willow's spell might not have been intended to be as invasive on such a large scale as it ultimately turned out to be.

 

[bespangeled]

Pitching an idea is not the same as actually casting the spell. Oz pitched the idea of actacking the Mayor with humus. If Buffy had went in armed with Humus it would have been on her not Oz.

The potentials were already effected by the spell cast by the shadowmen all those years ago. It marked them out as different and as first in the firing line of The First. No one in Sunnydale had the time to call every potential on the planet and come to a decision. They asked the girls that were there and it looked unanimous to me. A representative sample is the best they could do in the time frame.

If they could do a spell encompassing all the girls in the world, then why not do a more limited spell? And yes - while the potentials are like cheerleader Buffy a Hemory they don't seem to have much in the line of super powers. It's when you get called that that becomes part of the package. In essence, that was what the spell around the wotld did -called them to reach their full potential.

---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

Each to their own I guess. I always thought the slayers with the ability to defend themselves came across as more empowered than the potentials being stabbed to death by bringers though.

Yes - the potentials in the show definitely needed to be slayers.

Imagine girls in some cultures. Physical strength and nightmares. and no warning or training. This would change them and in some societies it could kill them. But even if they are able to maintain, would you really want to wear wear a Burqa or an Abaya with Niquab. You have no say over your life, you can't be seen by a man outside your family, you can't drive a car and in some places you can't go to school. You can't show you have strength to fight back. There are cultures around the world where sudden super strength would be seen as some sort of devil's work.

 

[thetopher]

To me, calling the spell Willow did 'rape' is the height of fallacy, since rape is all about stripping somebody of their power and making them a victim, not about making somebody stronger.
Is there a downside? Sure, its a gamble, and we do see darker consequences with Dana and Simone and such in the future of the Buffy-verse, but balance that against the end of the world and its a small price to pay.


So yeah, I like the 'Chosen' ending better- you can watch it, cheer for all the ones that made it and then either go off and read the comics or fan-fic or daydream about what happens next- its a good ending to the show.

'NFA' is also a good ending but it does leave your favourite characters hanging in limbo, pretty much ready to die in battle. I also have to go and read 'After the Fall' when Season 5 ends, otherwise I just imagine all of them dying heroically in battle.

 

[Silverspike]

In this instance they were stripped of their consent over their own bodies. A really basic, but incredibly important point.

Thats what the real issue was. Imo If Joss wanted to write a ending that was truly about female empowerment he should have tweaked it to encompass that. But as I said up steam Joss dealt Buffy some really crappy cards in this and the character had to make the best of it. It was only the writers in AtS that showed the fallout of her actions.

'NFA' is also a good ending but it does leave your favourite characters hanging in limbo, pretty much ready to die in battle.

Imo as all great myths and legends do.

 

[The Bronze]

If they could do a spell encompassing all the girls in the world, then why not do a more limited spell? And yes - while the potentials are like cheerleader Buffy a Hemory they don't seem to have much in the line of super powers. It's when you get called that that becomes part of the package. In essence, that was what the spell around the wotld did -called them to reach their full potential.

At a rough guess it just wasn't an option. It looked like an all or nothing deal to me and unless it comes up at some point in the comics I don't suppose we'll ever know.

Yes - the potentials in the show definitely needed to be slayers.

Imagine girls in some cultures. Physical strength and nightmares. and no warning or training. This would change them and in some societies it could kill them. But even if they are able to maintain, would you really want to wear wear a Burqa or an Abaya with Niquab. You have no say over your life, you can't be seen by a man outside your family, you can't drive a car and in some places you can't go to school. You can't show you have strength to fight back. There are cultures around the world where sudden super strength would be seen as some sort of devil's work.

Come again? If you didn't want to wear something to begin with then being given powers doesn't change the fact that you don't want to wear it. If someone somewhere is living in an oppressive culture that they hate and are given powers then they can either fight back or carry on exactly as before. They've not lost anything.

The argument that someone somewhere *might* have a problem if given powers is pretty thin. The same someone somewhere would have a problem if a bringer came to stab them to death. They would have a problem if The First was able to enter every person on the planet. If they live in such an oppressive culture then odds are they would be having problems to begin with, the extra power might give them the ability to defend themselves or at least go down swinging.

 

[bespangeled]

Each to their own I guess. I always thought the slayers with the ability to defend themselves came across as more empowered than the potentials being stabbed to death by bringers though.

But can they defend themselves - with no watcher, no trainnig, no idea why they are suddenly so strong? Are their families in danger, or their friends and enemies. Just because you are a potential doesn't mean that you are a good person who will use the power wisely.

---------- Post added at 12:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

To me, calling the spell Willow did 'rape' is the height of fallacy, since rape is all about stripping somebody of their power and making them a victim, not about making somebody stronger.
Is there a downside? Sure, its a gamble, and we do see darker consequences with Dana and Simone and such in the future of the Buffy-verse, but balance that against the end of the world and its a small price to pay.


So yeah, I like the 'Chosen' ending better- you can watch it, cheer for all the ones that made it and then either go off and read the comics or fan-fic or daydream about what happens next- its a good ending to the show.

'NFA' is also a good ending but it does leave your favourite characters hanging in limbo, pretty much ready to die in battle. I also have to go and read 'After the Fall' when Season 5 ends, otherwise I just imagine all of them dying heroically in battle.

The problem with rape is choice. The choice of how you want to deal with this person is taken away and your body is violated. Even if something is believed to be good for me - I want to chose.

Like I said, if there was a spell to transfer power to every potential in the world, then surely they could do a spell with parameters that included only the house. These girls know what is going on, and they have training.

---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

At a rough guess it just wasn't an option. It looked like an all or nothing deal to me and unless it comes up at some point in the comics I don't suppose we'll ever know.




Come again? If you didn't want to wear something to begin with then being given powers doesn't change the fact that you don't want to wear it. If someone somewhere is living in an oppressive culture that they hate and are given powers then they can either fight back or carry on exactly as before. They've not lost anything.

The argument that someone somewhere *might* have a problem if given powers is pretty thin. The same someone somewhere would have a problem if a bringer came to stab them to death. They would have a problem if The First was able to enter every person on the planet. If they live in such an oppressive culture then odds are they would be having problems to begin with, the extra power might give them the ability to defend themselves or at least go down swinging.

Since there is no word either way I assume this was Doylist - and I still think it's a bad decision on a Watsonian level.

Okay - if someone lives in an opressive society filled with restriction, and they suddenly become super strong with no outlet, I suspect they would have to deal with some serious repercussions. One angry punch that does damage to a man might well warrant a public beating and a long prison sentence or more. These are realities unless you believe all the potentials come from european countries.

Dana is a perfect example of how one girl somewhere had problems. Do you truly believe she was the only one?

BTW - the final battle didn't hurt the First, it only destroyed his army. If he could get into all minds before the battle then he could do the same after the battle.

 

[The Bronze]

Okay - if someone lives in an opressive society filled with restriction, and they suddenly become super strong with no outlet, I suspect they would have to deal with some serious repercussions. One angry punch that does damage to a man might well warrant a public beating and a long prison sentence or more. These are realities unless you believe all the potentials come from european countries.

Dana is a perfect example of how one girl somewhere had problems. Do you truly believe she was the only one?

BTW - the final battle didn't hurt the First, it only destroyed his army. If he could get into all minds before the battle then he could do the same after the battle.

Dana is the perfect example of a girl who already had an awful existence. The activation may have made things slightly worse for her to begin with. It also might have eventually made things better for her in the long run. We haven't caught up with her to find out.

If The First could get into everyone's mind before the battle or after the army was defeated then it would have. That's what it wanted to do. The only reason it didn't is because it couldn't.

The idea that people living in oppressive regimes shouldn't be given strength because it might make an already miserable existence a bit worse is quite hard to swallow. They get given an option to use it or carry on as before. It's not a bad thing for them. Certainly not compared with the consequences for everyone of inaction.

 

[bespangeled]

Dana is the perfect example of a girl who already had an awful existence. The activation may have made things slightly worse for her to begin with. It also might have eventually made things better for her in the long run. We haven't caught up with her to find out..

Wow - can't see a girl who watched her family get killed and then went through years of forced drugs, rape and torture until she was completely insane as a perfect example of anything. The activation put her over the edge, gave her the strength to escape - where she murdered a few people and mutilated Spike. Not sure what you think could get her better - she's already been institutionalized and drugged and that didn't help. In fact, she should be facing charges of double murder but she is too insane for anyone to hold her culpable. Her problems began long before the slayer dreams and the super strength screwed her up even more, and got two innocents killed

The idea that people living in oppressive regimes shouldn't be given strength because it might make an already miserable existence a bit worse is quite hard to swallow. They get given an option to use it or carry on as before. It's not a bad thing for them. Certainly not compared with the consequences for everyone of inaction.

Dana didn't have an option to use it or carry on as before. In fact, I don't recall a single mention in canon of any such option. Anyone who had the potential to be a slayer was turned into a slayer. That's fine for the girls in Sunnydale - they know what's happening and they know they will be changed. No one else in the world knows. The decision already cost at least two lives.

You seem, to me at least, to prefer to minimize what problems super powers can have in certain cultures. Let's look at the Nigerian girls recently kidnapped by the Boko Haram. A sudden acquiring of super strength and healing abilities would be seen as intrinsically evil and be reason for immediate execution. The consequences of inaction can be survival. All it needs is for one newly-empowered girl to shove someone and them flying across the room. In plenty of cultures that would also go if a girl sent someone flying, no matter where she was - reason to believe evil spirits or the devil is the source.

If these girls had signed on to fight oppression, that would be great. But they didn't sign on. They have no watchers. They have no training (a fair amount won't be able to read). They have no idea what a potential or a slayer is. Quite frankly, that's conscripting children in a war they didn't chose to fight.

 

[Silverspike]

Exactly, but then I feel this is an example Whedon not bothering about thinking the whole idea through. I supose in reality he felt he didn't need to for he intended the show/story to end right there.

The more you think about the plot the more you can drive bloody big holes through it. I mean don't get me started on the fact a group of, what, 25 or so inactivated Potentials could successfully hold off thousands upon thousands of Ubervamps without being overrun in twenty seconds.

But as Whedon said later down the line he was burnt out by the whole Buffy thing by then, and wanted to concentrate on other projects.

 

[The Bronze]

You seem, to me at least, to prefer to minimize what problems super powers can have in certain cultures. Let's look at the Nigerian girls recently kidnapped by the Boko Haram. A sudden acquiring of super strength and healing abilities would be seen as intrinsically evil and be reason for immediate execution. The consequences of inaction can be survival. All it needs is for one newly-empowered girl to shove someone and them flying across the room. In plenty of cultures that would also go if a girl sent someone flying, no matter where she was - reason to believe evil spirits or the devil is the source.

Those poor girls have already been kidnapped. I'm not fully up to date on their current situation but I beleieve there was a strong chance many of them were going to be raped / murdered / sold in to slavery. Being turned into a slayer would not be the low point of their year. It might even give them a chance to escape.

If these girls had signed on to fight oppression, that would be great. But they didn't sign on. They have no watchers. They have no training (a fair amount won't be able to read). They have no idea what a potential or a slayer is. Quite frankly, that's conscripting children in a war they didn't chose to fight.

I'm not saying the spell was cast and everyone lived happily ever after. We know that's not the case. What I'm saying is the positives far outweigh the negatives. No one was conscripted to anything by Willow. They were drafted in as the first victims in line by the shadowmen many years ago. The First and the bringers were coming for them already. Once activated no one was forced to fight. If someone came to attack them they could just as easily have stood there and accepted it like they had done previously. What they received was the option to fight back. What everyone got was a bit more time in the world because The First was stopped.

 

[thetopher]

You seem, to me at least, to prefer to minimize what problems super powers can have in certain cultures. Let's look at the Nigerian girls recently kidnapped by the Boko Haram. A sudden acquiring of super strength and healing abilities would be seen as intrinsically evil and be reason for immediate execution. The consequences of inaction can be survival. All it needs is for one newly-empowered girl to shove someone and them flying across the room. In plenty of cultures that would also go if a girl sent someone flying, no matter where she was - reason to believe evil spirits or the devil is the source.

If these girls had signed on to fight oppression, that would be great. But they didn't sign on. They have no watchers. They have no training (a fair amount won't be able to read). They have no idea what a potential or a slayer is. Quite frankly, that's conscripting children in a war they didn't chose to fight.

I'm not gonna comment on the Dana thing but this Boko Haram business- the girls were taken to be sold into slavery, I'm thinking maybe a couple of them having the ability and instinct to fight back would be a good idea. 🙂

And lets just look at what actually happes in the comics for a moment, these girls aren't 'chiild soldiers' forced into a war, they are approached by one of the Scooby's and told the situation- what they are, their powers and such- given the soft sell. If they choose to join up, cool, if not then they're not abducted against their will or anything.
There are a few instances where things go wrong, and they can't be ignored, but from what we see the empowered slayers are just that; empowered, not violated, not raped, not victims of abuse, not one of them says 'thanks Buffy for ruining my f***ing life!' (In fact- that would be interesting to see in the comics- a bunch of slayers- all with personal horror stories about being 'chosen'- teaming up to take down Buffy and/or Willow, who they deem as responsible for their plight.)

As it is I see people not liking the idea of what Buffy, so they completely ignore the results- in other words the facts we are shown- so they can get all righteous and throw the word 'rape' around.
As it stands in the Buffy-verse that word is not warrented for what we see.