Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[Silverspike]

The 'results' were these women were altered without having any so in it whatsoever. Thats not empowering at all, thats dictating imo. Having a say in what happens to your OWN body is a fundamental right for anyone, and so having this done to them without consent is NOT empowering at all, because they had no say in the outcome.

Joss should have realized that when he came up with little idea, but evidently the whole idea of giving consent alluded him.

But hey, If you don't see it, you don't see it.

So the more I think about it, the more I prefer NFA to Chosen.

---------- Post added at 06:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------

Thank you for just proving my point.

Okay I'll bite. In what way?

 

[thetopher]

You're focusing on the idea of what they did- that's your opinion and thats fine, but look at what actually happened there's no evidence of resentment from any of the girls we've seen, no mention of the word 'violation', no women being burned at the stake, or being beheaded because they suddenly get superpowers.

If any of those things had happened in the comics I could see your point- it would make it more grey area than it actually is.
But the results are, pretty much, positive, which is why I don't get this whole 'Buffy/Willow violated/riuned their lives' stuff, its just taking the idea of what happened and running with it.

I know you don't follow the comics but that's what happens, in canon- no denying it. 🙂

You want to look at a grey area ending look no further than 'Not Fade Away', being partly responsible for sending LA to hell is pretty grey area.

For the record I'm not opposed to doing more 'grey area morality' stuff with the empowerment spell, it might make for some interesting storytelling, but until then I'll take 'Chosen' in the spirit in which it was intended- sharing the slayer power, not hoarding it and using itin a controlling manner like the Watcher's intially intended.

 

[Silverspike]

Lets take this down to the most basic level.

Say somebody crept into your room whilst you slept one night and changed your face via surgery, hell lets take it down further and say they just dyed your hair a different colour because they thought you'd be better off looking like that, would you be pissed?

Would you be happy that somebody took it upon themselves to decide whats best for you without asking you first?

 

[The Bronze]

Lets take this down to the most basic level.

Say somebody crept into your room whilst you slept one night and changed your face via surgery, hell lets take it down further and say they just dyed your hair a different colour because they thought you'd be better off looking like that, would you be pissed?

Would you be happy that somebody took it upon themselves to decide whats best for you without asking you first?

If the fate of the world rested on my hair colour I think I'd get over it 😛

 

[Silverspike]

If the fate of the world rested on my hair colour I think I'd get over it

But sadly you wouldn't be in a position to know what the hell was going on. Just that you life had been changed and for some not for the good.

If Chosen is meant to be a metaphor for female empowerment, well imo I don't think Joss thought the implications through.

For me, no consent, no true empowerment.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Not buying the "consent" issue. Did you "consent" to the body you were born with?

If I were choosing a body, I would have picked taller, stronger, leaner, healthier and more handsome and athletic, so if some unknown circumstance suddenly pushed me in those directions, the only problem I would have is needing a new wardrobe. The potentials did not have that problem. None of the changes were visible.

Stronger is ALWAYS better than weaker, especially if you are being chased by bringers.

Confidence is always attractive to people who are not looking for some mousy little girl who can be intimidated.

Ability to recover from injuries faster than the ordinary person? Do you seriously think anyone would object to that?

Every change has been positive and if you are concerned about culture, none of the changes have been visible.

 

[Silverspike]

"Not buying the "consent" issue. Did you "consent" to the body you were born with?"

Not the same thing as these women already existed. They experienced a fundamental change that they had no say in.

 

[bespangeled]

Strength is good - super healing is good. They don't make you a slayer

Intelligence, experience, training, practing, hunting, planning, intuition, dedication, daptability. These are what makes a slayer.

That was why they had to train the potentials. Because some people are not good people, and some people don't want to be chosen, and some people live in precarious situations where being chosen can put lives in danger. One of the rules of BTVS magic is that closer is easier, smaller is easier. I have a hard time believing it was easier to turn girls all around the world into slayers than to turn the ones in the yard.

---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------

Not buying the "consent" issue. Did you "consent" to the body you were born with?

If I were choosing a body, I would have picked taller, stronger, leaner, healthier and more handsome and athletic, so if some unknown circumstance suddenly pushed me in those directions, the only problem I would have is needing a new wardrobe. The potentials did not have that problem. None of the changes were visible.

Stronger is ALWAYS better than weaker, especially if you are being chased by bringers.

Confidence is always attractive to people who are not looking for some mousy little girl who can be intimidated.

Ability to recover from injuries faster than the ordinary person? Do you seriously think anyone would object to that?

Every change has been positive and if you are concerned about culture, none of the changes have been visible.

Sorry - we both know the change was done to young adults, without their permission.

Strength, confidence, and healing ability are not always gifts - and sometimes that mousy girl is Willow 😎. In some situations that are not American suburbia, a girl suddenly gifted and not cunning enough to make sure no one ever knows would be executed. Even if she survives, think of Buffy in such a life. Even she felt that the slaying powers were a curse and not a gift.

 

[danajsparks]

The 'results' were these women were altered without having any so in it whatsoever. Thats not empowering at all, thats dictating imo. Having a say in what happens to your OWN body is a fundamental right for anyone, and so having this done to them without consent is NOT empowering at all, because they had no say in the outcome.

Buffy, herself, regularly laments, at least in the early seasons, about having no choice about becoming the slayer. And it's not only the responsibility of being the slayer that bothers her. The nature of simply being a slayer sets her apart from others and affects her in numerous ways.

When you become a slayer, you become part-demon. You are no longer fully human. I'd say that turning someone into a part-demon, even with their consent, is a pretty drastic action to take.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy, herself, regularly laments, at least in the early seasons, about having no choice about becoming the slayer. And it's not only the responsibility of being the slayer that bothers her. The nature of simply being a slayer sets her apart from others and affects her in numerous ways.

When you become a slayer, you become part-demon. You are no longer fully human. I'd say that turning someone into a part-demon, even with their consent, is a pretty drastic action to take.

That mainly comes from the fact that she alone is the slayer, one girl in all the world with nobody to share her burden with, nobody to understand what its like to be the slayer.
And to be fair she over this by the end of Season 3.

The nature of being the slayer- well, Buffy pretty much denies that she enjoys all the fighting, but she does, she quips, she slays, she likes it, it even, on some level, arrouses her (sex and violence are intrinsically linked in humans anyway- psychologically speaking)

Faith is much more open about enjoying all the fighting and slaying- their conversation in 'End Of Days' can be summed up basically as 'It sucks to be alone and isolated because nobody can know what it's llike to be us, to be the slayer- but hey, we have superpowers which is really cool!'

Now there are thousands of girls, all of whose can, if they choose to, be mentored by girls who know what its like, who can be friends with girls exactly like them, who can share that burden and be taught how to deal with all those downsides.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Buffy, herself, regularly laments, at least in the early seasons, about having no choice about becoming the slayer. And it's not only the responsibility of being the slayer that bothers her. The nature of simply being a slayer sets her apart from others and affects her in numerous ways.

When you become a slayer, you become part-demon. You are no longer fully human. I'd say that turning someone into a part-demon, even with their consent, is a pretty drastic action to take.

Now that there are a number of slayers, some will not have to face the demons and vampires. They have the option, which no previous slayer had, to opt out of the battle.

When you are a potential, you are part demon. That is how the bringers tracked them. Becoming the slayer is something that formerly only one girl did at a time.

Remember, these girls were being actively hunted and killed for no reason they could understand. Few of the potentials survived as the intro to Season 7 showed. This was already setting them apart.

 

[bespangeled]

That mainly comes from the fact that she alone is the slayer, one girl in all the world with nobody to share her burden with, nobody to understand what its like to be the slayer.
And to be fair she over this by the end of Season 3.

The nature of being the slayer- well, Buffy pretty much denies that she enjoys all the fighting, but she does, she quips, she slays, she likes it, it even, on some level, arrouses her (sex and violence are intrinsically linked in humans anyway- psychologically speaking)

Faith is much more open about enjoying all the fighting and slaying- their conversation in 'End Of Days' can be summed up basically as 'It sucks to be alone and isolated because nobody can know what it's llike to be us, to be the slayer- but hey, we have superpowers which is really cool!'

Now there are thousands of girls, all of whose can, if they choose to, be mentored by girls who know what its like, who can be friends with girls exactly like them, who can share that burden and be taught how to deal with all those downsides.

And who need to be found first.

So it took Buffy three years, with a watcher and a good support system. With training, and a full understanding of what she is and what she is wedded to. Even then she longed for a normal life.

A potential who is suddenly changed has no idea what is going on, has massive physical changes which will create a new situation without any training, support or explanation. Gotta figure there are some bad eggs in the bunch - and some in incredible danger. But they can be called collateral damage, right. Dana is collateral damage - as are the two men she killed. I seriously doubt they were the only collateral damage.

 

[danajsparks]

When the potentials were activated, they were granted superpowers. Yay!

They were also granted disturbing visions/memories and violent urges that can be difficult to control. Even Buffy had to learn some self-control so that she didn't accidentally kill a human. (See "Ted")

Being a slayer affects a girl psychologically in ways that are inherent to being a slayer, regardless of social context.

 

[bespangeled]

Now that there are a number of slayers, some will not have to face the demons and vampires. They have the option, which no previous slayer had, to opt out of the battle.

When you are a potential, you are part demon. That is how the bringers tracked them. Becoming the slayer is something that formerly only one girl did at a time.

Remember, these girls were being actively hunted and killed for no reason they could understand. Few of the potentials survived as the intro to Season 7 showed. This was already setting them apart.

Then where do the hundreds from the comics come from?

Why does Xander have to go to Africa? Why the concentrated effort to find and train slayers? We saw a handful of European slayers, and only one from China. The others were mainly american by their accents.

I think Buffy and Willow had to come up with something in a hurry - and they didn't think it through.

 

[white avenger]

I think Buffy and Willow had to come up with something in a hurry - and they didn't think it through.

As I've said before, I don't think that anyone, Buffy, Willow, or even Giles, had any idea just how many Potentials there were in the world. Most likely, the Watchers had some method of locating the few girls who were the most likely to be Called as Slayers, but either ignored or simply didn't detect all of the other possible candidates. Willow's activation spell, however, instead of being selective like the original spell was, simply had a shotgun effect, empowering every girl in the world who would have had any trace of the Potential essence, for want of a better word, regardless of whether or not they were actually capable of being the Slayer.

There must be some kind of natural selection process connected to the Shadow Men's original spell that bypassed Potentials who were in some way ineligible to actually become the Slayer, such as Dana, or girls who had suffered debilitating injuries or diseases. Willow's spell almost certainly eliminated that necessary safety factor, at least to some degree, basically throwing the entire process into chaos.

 

[thetopher]

And who need to be found first.

So it took Buffy three years, with a watcher and a good support system. With training, and a full understanding of what she is and what she is wedded to. Even then she longed for a normal life.

A potential who is suddenly changed has no idea what is going on, has massive physical changes which will create a new situation without any training, support or explanation. Gotta figure there are some bad eggs in the bunch - and some in incredible danger. But they can be called collateral damage, right. Dana is collateral damage - as are the two men she killed. I seriously doubt they were the only collateral damage.

Buffy longed for the option of a normal life, for some time off, for that choice- which all these girls have. They, simply put, have all the power and none of the responsibility that Buffy herself had.

I'm actually surprised so many girls signed up to be 'slayers', they certainly didn't have to. I'm guessing there was a good sales pitch.

We see the 'bad eggs', of course there's a downside, we see the 'collatoral damage'- which is still better the Potentials being murdered and the world being overrun with, y'know, evil.

I just don't see 'horrible violation' as a justifiyable arguement for the spell being a bad thing.
There's so little evidence to back it up, not one slayer we've seen calls Buffy out on what they've done, (maybe Simone in S9?) quite the opposite actually. There seems to be a lot of hero worship on their part about who Buffy is and what she's done.

Anything other that what we see in the comics is wild speculation coming from the fact that some people don't like the idea of what Buffy and Willow did, not the reality.

It's an emotive argument with nothing substative to back it up, all 'doubts' aside. 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of CONSENT. That underpins everything imo.

No consent (whatever the outcome) no empowerment.

Imo you can't make a decision on behalf of a women and then call it 'empowerment'.

I think Buffy and Willow had to come up with something in a hurry - and they didn't think it through.

No sadly that be Whedon, who If he really wanted to go that route should have thought the idea through more thoroughly.

Buffy the character was just dealt a really crappy hand and did her best with it.

 

[thetopher]

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of CONSENT. That underpins everything imo.

No consent (whatever the outcome) no empowerment.

Imo you can't make a decision on behalf of a women and then call it 'empowerment'.



No sadly that be Whedon, who If he really wanted to go that route should have thought the idea through more thoroughly.

Buffy the character was just dealt a really crappy hand and did her best with it.

Empowerment is all about working with what you have, whatever that is.

If these girls are given power (or having it forced on them) then of course what they do with it matter. They can take ownership of that power and become stronger, better- empowered.

It's not always about consent. Things happen to people for no reason that they have no control over- you can't just throw up your hands and go 'oh well, that's it for me!'.
You can take control and be responsible.

That, to me, is empowerment. 🙂

'Are you ready to be strong?'

 

[Silverspike]

If these girls are given power (or having it forced on them) then of course what they do with it matter.

'Forced'. Now thats REAL empowering isn't it. 😀

For me It's about being given the ability to decide what to do with ones own body. Something that women have looong history of being denied, and you'd think Whedon would understand given he likes to think he's a feminist.

Thanks for flagging up what I (and several others) have trouble with this idea.

Imo Joss really didn't have his thinking head on when he came up with this.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

People that dont see the Slayer spell as a good idea relaly dont see the bigger picture imo.
I dont see how anyone can moan about consent, when all the girls activated already lost concent.
Every potential was already marked, already chosen and already altered in some way.

If they hadn't done the spell, one of those girls would have had to fight no choice - that is the problem Buffy complained about in the earlier seasons. Once you're chosen, you fight end of story, Noe if you are one of the slayers, you can choose what you do, you dont have to fight cuz powers were forced on you, becasue powers were forced on you you now dont have to do anything about that.

Yes, none of those girls got a choice in if they got the power, but so what? They were never going to get a choice, they weren't denied a choice in the matter they were only given a choice what to do with the power.
If the spell had activated random normal people and made them slayers, the whole matter of consent would be valid, but the fact is the girls were already potentials.
The consent issue is with the original spell, and I dont think anyone would argue otherwise. The spell wasn't perfect, but it still lessened the burden of the original spell, and allowed more freedom to the girls.

They were also granted disturbing visions/memories

People always go on and one about this, but how many disturbing dreams did Buffy actually have?
She had like what, 5/6 over 7 years? I've probably had 5/6 disturbing/weird dreams over a 7 year period.
People have never had control over their dreams.

Imo you can't make a decision on behalf of a women and then call it 'empowerment'.

That means nothing has ever been empowering then.

There has never been a vote done to count every single women in the worlds opinion on something, yet there have been many laws and whatever changed that are empowering to women