Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[Silverspike]

Well if things were all kittens and rainbows like that, Willow should have just done a spell to turn the First into a cloud and gone about her day.

Thats not what I was getting at and you damn well know it hon. If Whedon wanted to write some great feminist feel good ending he should have written it differently imo.

You have inherent abilities that others do not have.

Which they can''t access yet.

And as for the rest well I think you still don't get what I'm trying to say, and I strongly disagree with your answers, so I think I've said enough as we're now just going around in circles.

 

[danajsparks]

The empowering part of the spell wasn't that all these potentials got super strenght, it was the girls could not choose what do with it.
When Buffy found out she's a slayer she had no choice but to fight. The new slayers have a choice.
Every single slayer and potential slayer is a victim of the original spell, but the empowering part is now they get to choose to fight or not.

I think where we disagree on this is that I believe that there are costs to being a slayer even if she chooses not to fight demons.

--A slayer is granted super-strength and other heightened abilities, which she then has to be careful to hide if she doesn't want anyone to know about them
--A slayer instinctively responds to threats (real or perceived) with violence, and this is something that she has to learn how to control so that innocent (or even not so innocent) people don't get hurt.
--A slayer must deal with disturbing visions and dreams. We saw that this was, at least, a serious problem for Dana.
--A slayer has accelerated healing, which might be a problem if she's ever seriously injured and she lives in a community that has problems with "witchcraft"
--A slayer is actually part-demon, and her family and community may not react positively to that fact. (See Tara's family.) In some cultures, they might kill her. (A potential may also already be part-demon, but it appears that the demon is basically dormant until she is activated to be a slayer.)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Which they can''t access yet.

No, the quote is "You have inherent abilities that others do not have." full stop.
No where does it say "that you can't access yet."
You are adding that, and it's not back up in fact.

The show doesn't say that and the show doesn't support your hypothesis that they are perfectly normal girls.

The show says they have abilities others to do, it shows us a 16 year old girl using those abilities, and it shows us that potentials are different tenough that they can be identified as different.

If they were normal girls there wouldn't be potential slayers, all girls would be potentials.

Potentials are a subset of all girls, becasue they are already different.

And as for the rest well I think you still don't get what I'm trying to say, and I strongly disagree with your answers, so I think I've said enough as we're now just going around in circles.

I dont see how we're going in circles, when you ask for backed up facts, I give them, you dismiss it with more un-backed up facts and can't back up the points I asked for, thats not circles, thats just your point being proven wrong.

 

[danajsparks]

I think part of the problem is that we learned after Season 7 that there apparently were well over 1000 Potentials who were leading completely ordinary lives and were not being targeted and killed by the Bringers.

 

[Silverspike]

I'm afraid I'm not having you derail my argument which If you remember was about how IMO OPINION the slayer spell wasn't empowering as it lacked consent. If Whedon wanted that he should have written it differently.

I don't give a fig about the rest. Think what you want to for as I said I've had enough.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think where we disagree on this is that I believe that there are costs to being a slayer even if she chooses not to fight demons.

Absolutely.

--A slayer is granted super-strength and other heightened abilities, which she then has to be careful to hide if she doesn't want anyone to know about them

Buffy didn't seem to have much trouble hiding her strength from people.
She had problems hiding the whole thing from her mom, but if a slayer chose not to slay she wouldn't have that problem.

--A slayer instinctively responds to threats (real or perceived) with violence, and this is something that she has to learn how to control so that innocent (or even not so innocent) people don't get hurt.

She does?
They are not like a feral animal, they dont instinctually jump back with violence, thats never really shown on the show.

--A slayer must deal with disturbing visions and dreams. We saw that this was, at least, a serious problem for Dana.

1 slayer that was a problem for.
1 slayer is the exception, not the rule.
Danas problems are more the responsibility of her kidnapper, and her attention seeking/incompetent doctor
The dreams were only particually violent for Dana, becasue of her past.
We've seen Buffys dreams they aren't anything physopathic, and no odder than a normal persons random dreams they have no control over.

--A slayer has accelerated healing, which might be a problem if she's ever seriously injured and she lives in a community that has problems with "witchcraft"

Yeah fine, in a case where they are hiding it, thats harder.

--A slayer is actually part-demon, and her family and community may not react positively to that fact. (See Tara's family.) In some cultures, they might kill her. (A potential may also already be part-demon, but it appears that the demon is basically dormant until she is activated to be a slayer.)

But this were it gets sketchy, is a potential part demon?
The slayer power isn't a single power moving from girl to girl. The fact that Buffy retains her power after she dies means that the power is part of her, unique to her.
If potentials have that power in them, just waiting for it to be activated they are already part demon.
The fact that they have better strength, speed and reflexes backs that up, as does the fact they can be identified.
They've already been changed.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 PM ----------

I think part of the problem is that we learned after Season 7 that there apparently were well over 1000 Potentials who were leading completely ordinary lives and were not being targeted and killed by the Bringers.

They were all being targed they just hadn't got to them yet!

and the fact that they track down all 1000+ girls should dispel most of the concerns in your list.

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

I'm afraid I'm not having you derail my argument which If you remember was about how IMO OPINION the slayer spell wasn't empowering as it lacked consent. If Whedon wanted that he should have written it differently.

I don't give a fig about the rest. Think what you want to for as I said I've had enough.

Thats absolutely fine, I only had part of your arguments as you were presenting them as if they were based on fact, which they weren't.
you can have an opinion, that is 100% your opinion and ignore fact to believe it, but the rest of us are allowed to point out the flaws in logic with actual facts.

 

[thetopher]

Cordelia never consented to take Doyle's visions.

Y'know, the painful, agonising, slowly killing her visions. And she never blamed Doyle once.
At all. She just learned to deal with it.

That's far more difficult than the slayer situation at the end of S7, by any measure.

By your rational Doyle is a horrible person because he didn't ask for Cordelia's consent, she never had a choice.
I, on the other hand, focused on what she went on to do with the power/how she coped, how it changed her and allowed her to grow in character.

Bottom line: Focusing soley on 'consent' is an incredibly narrow way to look at empowerment and feminism, imo
It matters, sure- but its not the only way to judge a situation, as the above example proves.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Bottom line: Focusing soley on 'consent' is an incredibly narrow way to look at empowerment and feminism, imo
It matters, sure- but its not the only way to judge a situation, as the above example proves.

Totally!

Focusing on the consent part is irrelevant. The empowering part is the choice afterwards.

Seemingly the spell to activate the potentials was an all or nothing deal. Had Willow made contact and asked all the potentials a yes or no andone said no, none get them get the power, everyone dies fighting the first, and the one girl who said no gets the power anyway, as consent is irrelevant in this scenario, the bit they should be consenting to is already done and over, they are already marked.

 

[The Bronze]

Swinging back around to the beginning of the thread and Not Fade Away. I already said I liked the plan but does anyone else like to assume that a few phone calls were made off screen by Angel and crew to let others know what they were intending? I tend to think maybe Angel got in contact with Buffy or perhaps Wesley tipped Giles off. I just think that fits in better rather than leaving the whole world in the dark when there could be big consequences.

 

[thetopher]

Swinging back around to the beginning of the thread and Not Fade Away. I already said I liked the plan but does anyone else like to assume that a few phone calls were made off screen by Angel and crew to let others know what they were intending? I tend to think maybe Angel got in contact with Buffy or perhaps Wesley tipped Giles off. I just think that fits in better rather than leaving the whole world in the dark when there could be big consequences.

I kinda find this hugely frustrating in a way- there's a massive knowledge hole between the end of Season 5 of Angel and the start of Buffy 8.

We don't really know how Buffy finds out that Spike is alive again or what she thinks about that, any knowledge of the Scooby gang's reactions to the events of 'Not Fade Away'
Do any of them care that Wes died, or Fred (this would mostly be Willow, since she had the most contact) and we barely get any mention to Cordelia's passing except one throwaway line.

There's a huge mine for stories during that 18 month period, if you discount a lot of the Angel IDW stuff.

 

[Silverspike]

We don't really know how Buffy finds out that Spike is alive again or what she thinks about that

Going by Jeanty's comments in a recent interview that all happened off camera so to speak and we're meant to take it as red Andrew told her.

Which for me comes across as just being lazy and not realizing that by ignoring all this back story it would annoy some of their readership who wanted to know these things.

 

[NothingVentured]

Totally!

Focusing on the consent part is irrelevant. The empowering part is the choice afterwards.

Seemingly the spell to activate the potentials was an all or nothing deal. Had Willow made contact and asked all the potentials a yes or no andone said no, none get them get the power, everyone dies fighting the first, and the one girl who said no gets the power anyway, as consent is irrelevant in this scenario, the bit they should be consenting to is already done and over, they are already marked.

That is the part that seems to be ignored in the discussion. The girls' consent was already disregarded by whatever mechanism chooses potentials. They weren't regular girls; they were targets even if they were unaware of it.

You are given a message that 100 people will be killed. You can give them the ability to defend themselves, but it's all or none. What do you do? There will be downsides to this decision. One of those people might use that ability to rob a bank or kill their lover later on. That's the life of being a hero. The person you just saved might kill a hundred people. But what do you do?

What interesting is I've often seen the opposite discussed: It's not really empowering at all because only a small group was given power, not the whole population.

 

[bespangeled]

Most potentials were never even aware that they were potentials. Once they are activated as slayers there is literally no way to go back. Their bodies are no longer their own.

Are you ready to be strong - funny how the majority of girls were never even asked that question. The choice was made for them. And I have seen nothing in canon that even implies that slayers can choose to have a normal life. They are no longer physically normal - this obviously has an impact on choosing a normal life.

You need my consent to in any way alter my body - but since others assume that I would want superpowers does not give them the right to impose them on me.

Look at how demons are attracted to slayers. Look at Amanda. She'd be dead without Dawn there to rescue her and explain what was going on, and how to fight vampires.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

If you are a woman in Canada, you have the right to vote. Not every woman wanted it, but a small number of suffragettes agitated for it after WWI and now you have it whether you want it or not, just like every potential was activated whether they wanted it or not.

Some women welcome the opportunity to have a say in how they are governed. Some feel that it is an obligation to learn about the party platforms and cast their vote and they do so. A number of others couldn't be bothered and think believe they were better off not having any obligation whatsoever. But what they have is choice, which did not exist before.

The potentials in Buffy's house were like the original suffragettes. No one is forced to fight, just like no one is forced to vote. The empowerment is having an option that was not there before. Note that a small number of women in the suffragette movement made a choice that was then foisted on all women. If you are against activation, would you have been against women getting the vote? And yes, many of the suffragettes were hated and reviled for what they did, just as a woman who got the vote may have been reviled for going to the polling station. But they prevailed. BTW the Province of Ontario elected the first openly gay female premier (like a governor of an American state) on June 12 last week.

If you believe:

"Be not afraid of greatness. Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them."
― William Shakespeare, Twelfth Night

then having greatness thrust upon you is not something you could rationally object to. Maintaining the status quo would not be the feminist choice.

 

[white avenger]

This whole discussion about empowerment and free will reminds me of something that we had in the United States back when I was a young man, called the Draft. I could just imagine Richard Nixon saying, "From now on, every young man who COULD be a soldier, WILL be a soldier." Viewed from that perspective, it sheds a whole new light on the process. I can only think of a few of us "Potentials" who felt in the least bit empowered, and that was the ones who volunteered before they were notified for the draft. To everyone else, it was just forced servitude for what some called patriotic duty.

(Incidentally, for any who might be interested, I was one of the ones who joined before my number came up)

 

[Ethan Reigns]

This whole discussion about empowerment and free will reminds me of something that we had in the United States back when I was a young man, called the Draft. I could just imagine Richard Nixon saying, "From now on, every young man who COULD be a soldier, WILL be a soldier." Viewed from that perspective, it sheds a whole new light on the process. I can only think of a few of us "Potentials" who felt in the least bit empowered, and that was the ones who volunteered before they were notified for the draft. To everyone else, it was just forced servitude for what some called patriotic duty.

(Incidentally, for any who might be interested, I was one of the ones who joined before my number came up)

That was not empowerment, it was slavery. The draftees did not have a choice to be where they were. They did not have a choice about engaging the enemy. No one else made the decision for a potential about what to do with their training and special abilities.

 

[NothingVentured]

This whole discussion about empowerment and free will reminds me of something that we had in the United States back when I was a young man, called the Draft. I could just imagine Richard Nixon saying, "From now on, every young man who COULD be a soldier, WILL be a soldier." Viewed from that perspective, it sheds a whole new light on the process. I can only think of a few of us "Potentials" who felt in the least bit empowered, and that was the ones who volunteered before they were notified for the draft. To everyone else, it was just forced servitude for what some called patriotic duty.

(Incidentally, for any who might be interested, I was one of the ones who joined before my number came up)

The analogy is inadequate. They were drafted when they became potentials. The moment that happened, they were soldiers. All Buffy and Willow's spell did was give them a weapon to fight with.

They were already being targeted, hunted down and killed.

 

[bespangeled]

If you are a woman in Canada, you have the right to vote. Not every woman wanted it, but a small number of suffragettes agitated for it after WWI and now you have it whether you want it or not, just like every potential was activated whether they wanted it or not.

Some women welcome the opportunity to have a say in how they are governed. Some feel that it is an obligation to learn about the party platforms and cast their vote and they do so. A number of others couldn't be bothered and think believe they were better off not having any obligation whatsoever. But what they have is choice, which did not exist before.

The potentials in Buffy's house were like the original suffragettes. No one is forced to fight, just like no one is forced to vote. The empowerment is having an option that was not there before. Note that a small number of women in the suffragette movement made a choice that was then foisted on all women. If you are against activation, would you have been against women getting the vote? And yes, many of the suffragettes were hated and reviled for what they did, just as a woman who got the vote may have been reviled for going to the polling station. But they prevailed. BTW the Province of Ontario elected the first openly gay female premier (like a governor of an American state) on June 12 last week.

If you believe:

"Be not afraid of greatness. Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them."
― William Shakespeare, Twelfth Night

then having greatness thrust upon you is not something you could rationally object to. Maintaining the status quo would not be the feminist choice.

You can chose not to vote - it is not a physical change or compulsion.

Feminism was about having choice. I know - I'm old enough to be one of the original ones.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

That was not empowerment, it was slavery. The draftees did not have a choice to be where they were. They did not have a choice about engaging the enemy. No one else made the decision for a potential about what to do with their training and special abilities.

And a newly made slayer does have choices. She simply has no idea what they are. She has been tossed into a battlefield with a weapon but no manual or training.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

The analogy is inadequate. They were drafted when they became potentials. The moment that happened, they were soldiers. All Buffy and Willow's spell did was give them a weapon to fight with.

They were already being targeted, hunted down and killed.

They were potential simply by being healthy young men of a certain age.

They were tossed into the center of the battlefield without other soldiers or any knowledge of how their weapon worked. Seems to me that the bringers stopped targeting potentials once some reached Buffy. If they didn't, it was being ignored I assume since no new potentials reached the house.

 

[thetopher]

The Potentials never had a chioce before Willow's spell- they were already marked out as different (because they were Potential) and were targeted by bringers accordingly, right up until 'Dirty Girls'. (Shannon I think, who Caleb killed.)

Also, in Season 8, it makes clear that the majority of slayers don't actually work for Buffy- so it is shown that they have a choice whether to fight or not- it is up to them.

Like I said the spell gives them power, but not the responsibility of a slayer.

They're not getting 'drafted' into a war or anything, they're tracked down, things are explained and they can choose to explore this new part of themselves.

This is all canon because we're shown it in the comics.

 

[Silverspike]

This is all canon because we're shown it in the comics.

But Chosen was written long before the comics were even a twinkle in Whedons eye, so when it comes to this plot I don't include it. Imo Chosen was written in mind that this would be the final ever episode and so Whedon wouldn't have to deal with the fallout afterwards.

Feminism was about having choice. I know - I'm old enough to be one of the original ones.

Exactly. I still don't understand why some folks don't see that.

Dare I say maybe It's male/female divide thing? Maybe more women are sensitive to this issue then men, I just don't know otherwise.

Choice over what happens to your own body seems like such an obvious thing to want to me.