Chosen: Empowering the Potentials & Female Empowerment?

[Black Eye Guy]

People are completely missing the point of the entire thing.

It's not empowering that they now have superpowers.

From WAs draft example: you were already drafted being a potential, already picked.
You don't get a choice in being drafted, and if you were called you went to war, no choice.
NOW after being drafted you get asked do you want to go to war, you have a choice to go to war or stay home - that's the empowering part.

You can say how dare Buffy do that to my body without my consent, but had she not done it that could happen to your body anyway, that change is already done!


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[bespangeled]

People are completely missing the point of the entire thing.

It's not empowering that they now have superpowers.

From WAs draft example: you were already drafted being a potential, already picked.
You don't get a choice in being drafted, and if you were called you went to war, no choice.
NOW after being drafted you get asked do you want to go to war, you have a choice to go to war or stay home - that's the empowering part.

You can say how dare Buffy do that to my body without my consent, but had she not done it that could happen to your body anyway, that change is already done!


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You have a choice as to whether you go to war? Sorry, I come from a pretty military family and my understanding is that you get told when and where you are going.

Honestly, I think we have all reached the point where we are going in circles. Back to 'I understand what you are saying - I just disagree.' 😉

 

[The Bronze]

Most potentials were never even aware that they were potentials. Once they are activated as slayers there is literally no way to go back. Their bodies are no longer their own.

Are you ready to be strong - funny how the majority of girls were never even asked that question. The choice was made for them. And I have seen nothing in canon that even implies that slayers can choose to have a normal life. They are no longer physically normal - this obviously has an impact on choosing a normal life.

You need my consent to in any way alter my body - but since others assume that I would want superpowers does not give them the right to impose them on me.

Look at how demons are attracted to slayers. Look at Amanda. She'd be dead without Dawn there to rescue her and explain what was going on, and how to fight vampires.

Amanda was only a potential slayer. This example shows exactly what some of us have been saying. The potentials were already different, demon magnets if you will.

Feminism was about having choice. I know - I'm old enough to be one of the original ones.

Exactly. When Willow gave the potentials the power of the slayer she gave them choice. They could now choose to use that power to defend themselves when the bringers came to murder them or stand there and be stabbed to death like many of them had been before.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

I kinda find this hugely frustrating in a way- there's a massive knowledge hole between the end of Season 5 of Angel and the start of Buffy 8.

We don't really know how Buffy finds out that Spike is alive again or what she thinks about that, any knowledge of the Scooby gang's reactions to the events of 'Not Fade Away'
Do any of them care that Wes died, or Fred (this would mostly be Willow, since she had the most contact) and we barely get any mention to Cordelia's passing except one throwaway line.

There's a huge mine for stories during that 18 month period, if you discount a lot of the Angel IDW stuff.

I'm still hoping for a few flash backs into this time period. Might have to wait a while because of the IDW comics but I agree there's plenty of things that we're missing out on.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

You have a choice as to whether you go to war? Sorry, I come from a pretty military family and my understanding is that you get told when and where you are going.

That is exactly what I'm saying with this example.
If you are drafted you go to war, no choice.
If you are activated you go to war, no choice
If you are spell activated you do what you want, CHOICE!

I wasn't saying you get to choose to go to war if you are drafted. I'm correcting the example WA have of drafting/war saying of you apply that to the slayer scenario, you get drafted then you get to decide what to do.
Very few may want to get "drafted" (picked as a potential) but unfortunately it's an absolute, girls will ways be picked as potentials, they'll be fundamentally different to actual normal girls. This part has to be overlooked as it's a constant and can't change, the empowering part is now 1 girl doesn't have to do all the fighting, they can CHOOSE to fight.

Honestly, I think we have all reached the point where we are going in circles. Back to 'I understand what you are saying - I just disagree.' 😉

But you clearly don't understand what in saying, you just mistook something i used as analogy as something for fact.

Silverspike disagrees: No the fundamental change happened AFTER the spell.

Nope, already proved you wrong on that, back up with examples from the show.

If you want to find examples from the show to back up the stuff your making up please do, but you've already been proven incorrect.


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[Silverspike]

Look love I'm talking about consent issues, and not about what a potential is. For lord sake at least try and listen to what I'm saying.

But then dare I say as I'm a women maybe I have different view on how this story was penned then you. As consent issues are closer historically to women's hearts then mens.🙂

Honestly, I think we have all reached the point where we are going in circles. Back to 'I understand what you are saying - I just disagree.'

Yeah I think you're right there.

I suspect it's because women have had to fight for the ability to actually make choices

Yes spot on imo.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Look love I'm talking about consent issues, and not about what a potential is. For lord sake at least try and listen to what I'm saying.

For sone reason you fail to grasp that the two are connected. What a potential is directly relates to the (lack of) consent issue.
For some reason you can't wrap your head around the fact that the girls are already violated.
The fact that they can receive the power is because they have already had their consent broken. They've already been altered - that is fact, canon and backed up.

If your only talking about a consent issue start a thread to complain about the shadow man - we'll all agree with you. They are the ones that changed all these girls, even all the ones that don't become slayers.

But then dare I say as I'm a women maybe I have different view on how this story was penned then you. As consent issues are closer historically to women's hearts then mens.🙂

So you never gonna comment on any issues relating to men then?
Maybe the fact you are "closer " to the issue is clouding your judgement, you can't get passed the consent issue, even though consent isn't the issue, consent was already broken making them potentials.

Though the fact you think you can understand it better just cuz you're a women is sexist and small minded.

An educated person can understand the complexity of consent, even if they have a penis.



Yeah I think you're right there.



Yes spot on imo.[/QUOTE]





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[Buffy Summers]

Since the original thread was completely derailed by this topic, I have split it into a separate thread.

 

[The Bronze]

Hmm since we've been moved along I'll give my answer for the new question of this thread. No Chosen wasn't about female empowerment. It was about saving the world, being resourceful and making big decisions.

As a by product thousands of potentials were empowered and given the ability to defend themselves, from the slaughter they were facing. The world was also given a fighting chance against The First in case Buffy and co. initially failed.

 

[Kean]

I think Chosen thought it was about female empowerment but as a woman I can't say that it feels very empowering. Buffy tells the Potentials it is all about choice yet if any one of them had said they didn't want to be part of that Slayer spell, they wouldn't have been able to make the choice to not become a slayer. A choice where the only answer is "Yes" is not a choice at all.

Also, for a show that spent years focusing on the struggle of just living and how there are countless ways to be strong to then in its last breath boil strength down to physical ability was deeply disappointing. To imply that the Potentials, who had been taken from their homes, shipped to a strange place, forced live in cramped quarters and fight the very essence of evil itself weren't strong women already was ludicrous. The Potentials were annoying but they also showed guts and character far beyond their years. And all under a leadership that was visibly falling apart.

And lets not pretend that being a slayer is a glamourous life. It is a life marked with hardship, sacrifice and tragedy. All those girls would most likely have to give up their families and any personal dreams they had for themselves. Maybe someone wanted to be a singer or scientist. That right to choose who you are going to be is taken when you become a slayer because it takes you over. The slayer dreams fill your nights, along with the urge to hunt and kill. Simply ignoring it is not a real option. Other slayers (Nikki & Buffy) have tried but we have seen again and again that it is near impossible to do.

 

[The Bronze]

I think Chosen thought it was about female empowerment but as a woman I can't say that it feels very empowering. Buffy tells the Potentials it is all about choice yet if any one of them had said they didn't want to be part of that Slayer spell, they wouldn't have been able to make the choice to not become a slayer. A choice where the only answer is "Yes" is not a choice at all.

While I agree that the episode wasn't about female empowerment I can't help disagree with most of your reasoning. I would say a better way to look at this would be to divide the groups up more accurately rather than treating women as a whole. Something like this.

The First (in its cross hairs) -> Potential Slayers -> Slayers -> Regular men and women

So by my reasoning regular women such as yourself would feel no more empowered by this episode than a regular man because the spell doesn't affect you. What the spell achieves is to shift all of the potential slayers into the slayer category. They are still then first in line for execution but they have abilities to defend themselves. I think that's empowering for that group of people. Which is probably why that group of people voted for it when they were given a choice. If the majority of potentials that were asked said no then Willow wouldn't have done the spell. Then you'd have the poor potentials who voted yes to being able to defend themselves disempowered by the no votes.

Also, for a show that spent years focusing on the struggle of just living and how there are countless ways to be strong to then in its last breath boil strength down to physical ability was deeply disappointing. To imply that the Potentials, who had been taken from their homes, shipped to a strange place, forced live in cramped quarters and fight the very essence of evil itself weren't strong women already was ludicrous. The Potentials were annoying but they also showed guts and character far beyond their years. And all under a leadership that was visibly falling apart.

The potentials showed the strength of survivors. They weren't taken from their home though. They fled because they were in danger and didn't have the ability to defend themselves. They weren't forced to live in any conditions either as they had the freedom to leave. They choose to stick with Buffy as their best option. They fought / hid from The First as a matter of necessity because it was targeting them already. They'd have had significantly more options as slayers to begin with than potentials.

And lets not pretend that being a slayer is a glamourous life. It is a life marked with hardship, sacrifice and tragedy. All those girls would most likely have to give up their families and any personal dreams they had for themselves. Maybe someone wanted to be a singer or scientist. That right to choose who you are going to be is taken when you become a slayer because it takes you over. The slayer dreams fill your nights, along with the urge to hunt and kill. Simply ignoring it is not a real option. Other slayers (Nikki & Buffy) have tried but we have seen again and again that it is near impossible to do.

Being "The Slayer" is pretty much as you describe. Being a slayer is entirely different. Kennedy and co have dropped the good fight in return for making a fortune in private protection and I bet there are plenty of other slayers in other professions.

 

[Kean]

While I agree that the episode wasn't about female empowerment I can't help disagree with most of your reasoning. I would say a better way to look at this would be to divide the groups up more accurately rather than treating women as a whole. Something like this.

The First (in its cross hairs) -> Potential Slayers -> Slayers -> Regular men and women

So by my reasoning regular women such as yourself would feel no more empowered by this episode than a regular man because the spell doesn't affect you. What the spell achieves is to shift all of the potential slayers into the slayer category. They are still then first in line for execution but they have abilities to defend themselves. I think that's empowering for that group of people. Which is probably why that group of people voted for it when they were given a choice. If the majority of potentials that were asked said no then Willow wouldn't have done the spell. Then you'd have the poor potentials who voted yes to being able to defend themselves disempowered by the no votes.

While I understand your reasoning I can't say I agree with it. There is nothing to indicate that Willow wasn't going to do the spell if the Potentials said yes or no. To me it looked like it was happening either way. "Are you ready to be strong?" is the question Buffy poses, not "Do you want to be strong?" That is an important distinction to me.

The Potentials were the prey in this specific situation. They had never been targeted before. Prior to The First's plan in S7 only the slayer had been the target. The slayer spell made them them all the target for life.

The potentials showed the strength of survivors. They weren't taken from their home though. They fled because they were in danger and didn't have the ability to defend themselves. They weren't forced to live in any conditions either as they had the freedom to leave. They choose to stick with Buffy as their best option. They fought / hid from The First as a matter of necessity because it was targeting them already. They'd have had significantly more options as slayers to begin with than potentials.

Giles tracked down the Potentials and brought them to Sunnydale, the contact was made by him, not them. Maybe forced is the wrong word, but fled isn't any better. I don't recall any Potential seeking Buffy's help out of their own volition. Granted it has been awhile since I watched those episodes.

While being a slayer would have given the Potentials more options during S7 when the First was attacking them, they weren't slayers during those attacks. When they did become Slayers it was at a time when it became a moot point because it was the amulet that stopped The First, not them. Once the First was defeated being a Potential was no longer a vulnerable position to be in.

Being "The Slayer" is pretty much as you describe. Being a slayer is entirely different. Kennedy and co have dropped the good fight in return for making a fortune in private protection and I bet there are plenty of other slayers in other professions.

I don't agree. Kendra died being a slayer. Buffy has died twice, and has watched people she loves be hurt and killed, Faith was nearly destroyed entirely as a person by abusing the power she had. Simone, Lady Genevieve, Dana... being a slayer is not different.

Kennedy is a good example but she is one slayer who loves what she does, she does not appear to be the rule.

Until we are shown other slayers in other professions I won't assume there are because the entire history of being a slayer has been about how there is no other real life open to a Slayer once she is called. Being a slayer isn't just the physical power, it's the dreams, your natural instincts change. It's a mind, body, soul transformation. No character we have seen has show us anything that indicates that you can just choose not to slay and actually stay away from it.

 

[The Bronze]

While I understand your reasoning I can't say I agree with it. There is nothing to indicate that Willow wasn't going to do the spell if the Potentials said yes or no. To me it looked like it was happening either way. "Are you ready to be strong?" is the question Buffy poses, not "Do you want to be strong?" That is an important distinction to me.

I'm struggling to picture that scenario. If they'd have said no and ran off I can't picture Buffy and Willow rounding them up and marching them into the hellmouth in the hope they might fight when the spell was complete. I guess we can't be 100% certain but I really can't see how that would work.

The Potentials were the prey in this specific situation. They had never been targeted before. Prior to The First's plan in S7 only the slayer had been the target. The slayer spell made them them all the target for life.

If The First wasn't defeated then they would have remained targets for life, most likely with a shorter lifespan.

Giles tracked down the Potentials and brought them to Sunnydale, the contact was made by him, not them. Maybe forced is the wrong word, but fled isn't any better. I don't recall any Potential seeking Buffy's help out of their own volition. Granted it has been awhile since I watched those episodes.

Giles did track them down and explained the situation to them. They then sort Buffy's help of their volition once they understood the situation. Giles didn't have a gun or chains with him to capture them and bring them to Buffy. He provided information and a choice only.

While being a slayer would have given the Potentials more options during S7 when the First was attacking them, they weren't slayers during those attacks. When they did become Slayers it was at a time when it became a moot point because it was the amulet that stopped The First, not them. Once the First was defeated being a Potential was no longer a vulnerable position to be in.

The new slayers kept Spike in one piece long enough for the amulet to get going. No new slayers and Spike doesn't survive long enough for the amulet to work and the remaining potentials are in the same vulnerable position as before.

Kennedy is a good example but she is one slayer who loves what she does, she does not appear to be the rule.

Until we are shown other slayers in other professions I won't assume there are because the entire history of being a slayer has been about how there is no other real life open to a Slayer once she is called. Being a slayer isn't just the physical power, it's the dreams, your natural instincts change. It's a mind, body, soul transformation. No character we have seen has show us anything that indicates that you can just choose not to slay and actually stay away from it.

I suppose we can't say with certainty without knowing how many survived Season 8. It's fairly safe to say that Deepscan is a big operation though. So that's a fair chunk of current slayers employed privately for protection. That means it is possible to have a job and be a slayer. My guess is there are other's out there doing bits and pieces but because they're being normal there's no reason for the story to focus on them. Also how about Nadira opening a homeless shelter and not slaying 🙂

Also didn't the rest of Faith & Nadira's crew turn their back on slaying as well? My memory isn't great but they most likely have other jobs now.

 

[Kean]

I'm struggling to picture that scenario. If they'd have said no and ran off I can't picture Buffy and Willow rounding them up and marching them into the hellmouth in the hope they might fight when the spell was complete. I guess we can't be 100% certain but I really can't see how that would work.

I should have clarified, the choice I was talking about wasn't about taking part in the fight, it was about being a slayer. If they a number of Potentials had decided to not be slayers while the rest had agreed to being slayers, the spell would still have been done. They all would have become slayers regardless of their wishes. I don't think Buffy would have made any Potential fight that didn't want to but once you become a slayer the decision to fight is all but taken from you. Either you can't ignore the pull of it or the fight finds you anyway.

If The First wasn't defeated then they would have remained targets for life, most likely with a shorter lifespan.

Everyone would have died most likely, slayer, demon, regular human... everyone. Being a slayer or not wouldn't have mattered at all then.

Giles did track them down and explained the situation to them. They then sort Buffy's help of their volition once they understood the situation. Giles didn't have a gun or chains with him to capture them and bring them to Buffy. He provided information and a choice only.

Fair enough. I'd need to watch those episodes again to provide a better argument here.

The new slayers kept Spike in one piece long enough for the amulet to get going. No new slayers and Spike doesn't survive long enough for the amulet to work and the remaining potentials are in the same vulnerable position as before.

Well, no new slayers and its a different plan. Instead most likely Spike, Buffy & Faith go into the Hellmouth and the Potentials take posts in the school to lead the Turok Han into the daylight. Perhaps Willow helps hold them at bay until the amulet kicks similar to what she did in Showtime. Any number of things could have happened. I don't believe the Potentials are crucial to the defeat of the First in the Hellmouth.

I suppose we can't say with certainty without knowing how many survived Season 8. It's fairly safe to say that Deepscan is a big operation though. So that's a fair chunk of current slayers employed privately for protection. That means it is possible to have a job and be a slayer. My guess is there are other's out there doing bits and pieces but because they're being normal there's no reason for the story to focus on them. Also how about Nadira opening a homeless shelter and not slaying 🙂

I'd still argue they are jobs hinged on being a slayer. We could never know but I'd be interested in finding out if any of those girls would be doing that if they weren't called. We are still unsure what Nadira is about but it does look like she has changed things for herself but still, being a slayer led her to be disfigured by the magic and changed everything about who (maybe even what) she is. You could be right and it is a positive thing but until the season plays out I'll withhold judgement. I have been getting huge Drusilla vibes from her in the first few issues so I'm suspicious.

Also didn't the rest of Faith & Nadira's crew turn their back on slaying as well? My memory isn't great but they most likely have other jobs now.

We don't know. They turned their back on Faith because of her ties to Angel but the rest of the crew haven't been mentioned. There is no way to say either way.

 

[EVIL UU]

Alright, so a question. Was Buffy's and her predecessors' activation about empowerment? I mean, why did the sorcerers cast the spell? Did they do it to empower Sineya? They sat down and they were like, it's 6000 BC or whatever, like, girl power's so in right now, let's empower some woman!

No, of course not.

They cast the spell because they needed their own Frankenstein's Monster to kill demons. To fight for them. So uh, why does Willow cast the spell? 'Cause girl power's cool?

No.

She casts the spell because Buffy needs her own Frankenstein's Monsters to kill demons. To fight for her.


See, "Chosen" is not just a poorly written mess, it's also intellectually rotten in a pretty brilliant way. It features this entire cheap, pretentious sequence about young women around the world being activated and standing up for themselves and whatnot because they are given power, thing is, this is not the reason why they are given this power. Like the sorcerers, Willow does not cast the spell so some chick can stand up for herself or whatever, she does it because demons need to be killed. The chick and her problems are irrelevant, her gender does not even matter. So no, "Chosen" is not about empowerment, it only pretends to be. People, like, don't let the writers' bullshit fool you, Kay?

 

[Buffy Summers]

Are we talking about intentions or results? The result can be empowerment even if the intention was not to empower.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think Chosen thought it was about female empowerment but as a woman I can't say that it feels very empowering. Buffy tells the Potentials it is all about choice yet if any one of them had said they didn't want to be part of that Slayer spell, they wouldn't have been able to make the choice to not become a slayer. A choice where the only answer is "Yes" is not a choice at all.

But they never had that choice?

No potential has ever had the choice between being a slayer and not being a slayer, that is something that can't be changed.
Potentials are already different to normal girls, heightened abilities beyond humans and they seem to be more aggressive (Amanda).

The spell might not have been empowering to them as women, as they still had no choice in the matter of being potential slayers, but it was empowering to them as potential slayers.

Potential slayers can get taken away from their families, trained to fight, any one of them can become a slayer at any stage.
The potentials talk about the feeling they have when they fight a vampire, they have that draw already even without full access to the power.

It's not perfect, but the spell gives the slayer more control. The slayer is tool, thats what she has been since the beginning, she's a tool becasue there is one of her and she has to fight if selected.
Even thought it's only a small amount of choice, the activation spell does give the potentials more choice, they can choose to fight or not.

And lets not pretend that being a slayer is a glamourous life. It is a life marked with hardship, sacrifice and tragedy. All those girls would most likely have to give up their families and any personal dreams they had for themselves. Maybe someone wanted to be a singer or scientist. That right to choose who you are going to be is taken when you become a slayer because it takes you over. The slayer dreams fill your nights, along with the urge to hunt and kill. Simply ignoring it is not a real option. Other slayers (Nikki & Buffy) have tried but we have seen again and again that it is near impossible to do.

But the dreams dont fill your nights, Buffy was shown to have very few dreams. And Buffy wasn't shown to be drawn to hunting.
She was for a brief period in season 6, which was the same time she was getting more dreams but they were all connected to the same thing, the dreams had been warning her of all the events of season 5 for like over a year, the dreams about Dawn and the dreams about her death.

We dont know how the dreams work as all the rules of the slayer is different now. There has only been one slayer before, so she gets any and all dreams as she's the only one that can do anything, if there are 6 slayers in one area and 3 are actively slaying, the dream might go to one of them and not them all/one of the other 3.

The rules are even less clear in season 10, bit that is exactly what we see in Billy getting a prophecy dream, the new rules allowed him to get it, it night have been under the old rules 1 of the other slayers would have gotten it.

Not to mention Buffy isn't getting dreams of stuff happening all over the world, she only gets stuff directly relevant to her, no reason to assume that wouldn't be the same for all others.

Alright, so a question. Was Buffy's and her predecessors' activation about empowerment? I mean, why did the sorcerers cast the spell? Did they do it to empower Sineya? They sat down and they were like, it's 6000 BC or whatever, like, girl power's so in right now, let's empower some woman!

No, of course not.

They cast the spell because they needed their own Frankenstein's Monster to kill demons. To fight for them. So uh, why does Willow cast the spell? 'Cause girl power's cool?

No.

She casts the spell because Buffy needs her own Frankenstein's Monsters to kill demons. To fight for her.


See, "Chosen" is not just a poorly written mess, it's also intellectually rotten in a pretty brilliant way. It features this entire cheap, pretentious sequence about young women around the world being activated and standing up for themselves and whatnot because they are given power, thing is, this is not the reason why they are given this power. Like the sorcerers, Willow does not cast the spell so some chick can stand up for herself or whatever, she does it because demons need to be killed. The chick and her problems are irrelevant, her gender does not even matter. So no, "Chosen" is not about empowerment, it only pretends to be. People, like, don't let the writers' bullshit fool you, Kay?

Why can't it be both, I dont see why they are mutually exclusive.

They got fighters, but the slayers also got more choice then they had before. More choice and personal freedoms is empowering, no matter how small that extra bit of choice is, it's still empowering.

 

[thetopher]

RE: Buffy Summers.


Exactly.

Was Buffy just empowered just because she had superpowers and killed demons?

No, its what she did with those powers, about the choices she made as a young woman growing up, her struggles, her telling the Council to go to hell because she wasn't going to do things their way- ever.

She was empowered by what she did with the power .power that that she didn't earn, didn't ask for, and really didn't want.
But that power changed her, or rather she changed because of it- from 'valley girl' into Buffy Summers.
We all watched this happen over 7 years.

All those girls, around the world, can now forfill their 'potential', but its not about 'superpowers', its about not being a victim, not being helpless, having access to the strength that you possess.

It simply amazes me that so many professed fans of the show would miss something that obvious. 🙁

The show is about metaphor, people. Geez

But maybe I'm wrong, 'cause, y'know, I'm just a guy. 🙄

 

[Kean]

But they never had that choice?

No potential has ever had the choice between being a slayer and not being a slayer, that is something that can't be changed.

No they didn't have the choice but Buffy presents the spell as if she is giving them a choice. As if the way in which she is forcing power on these girls, whether they want it or not, is any different from what the Shadow Men did. If anything it is worse, she is doing what was done to her only 2000 times over.

Potentials are already different to normal girls, heightened abilities beyond humans and they seem to be more aggressive (Amanda).

That only presents in some girls. Buffy never showed any extra abilities. She was totally oblivious until Merrick turned up outside Hemery High. We know Kendra was trained from a young age but not if she had extra abilities, same goes for Faith.

Even if those abilities did present in all Potentials they manifest as being more agile or maybe faster than other girls their age. That is a million miles away from super strength.

The spell might not have been empowering to them as women, as they still had no choice in the matter of being potential slayers, but it was empowering to them as potential slayers.

That is operating on the assumption that all Potential Slayers want to be Slayers at all. Being called as a slayer when you don't want to be one is the exact opposite of empowerment.

Potential slayers can get taken away from their families, trained to fight, any one of them can become a slayer at any stage.
The potentials talk about the feeling they have when they fight a vampire, they have that draw already even without full access to the power.

But that still isn't full Slayer power. They may be drawn by it but it isn't compelling them to get up in the middle of the night to go out and hunt vampires the way it did Buffy. A bit like the Scythe. It felt right in Buffy and Faith's hands but they could still kill with other weapons. Killing vampires may feel right to Potentials, but is not something we ever see them need to do the way we do with full blown Slayers.

It's not perfect, but the spell gives the slayer more control. The slayer is tool, thats what she has been since the beginning, she's a tool becasue there is one of her and she has to fight if selected.
Even thought it's only a small amount of choice, the activation spell does give the potentials more choice, they can choose to fight or not.

The girls in that room had already made the choice to fight, but the 2000 other girls around the world hadn't. Once you are activated it becomes almost impossible to avoid slaying. Buffy came to Sunnydale thinking she had a new start, she told Giles that she wouldn't actively slay anymore. But she wasn't allowed make that choice because the evil kept finding her. Faith had a similar experience with Kakistos.

But the dreams dont fill your nights, Buffy was shown to have very few dreams. And Buffy wasn't shown to be drawn to hunting.
She was for a brief period in season 6, which was the same time she was getting more dreams but they were all connected to the same thing, the dreams had been warning her of all the events of season 5 for like over a year, the dreams about Dawn and the dreams about her death.

The prophetic dreams were crucial parts of each season of Buffy, apart from maybe S6. Each other season they act as warnings to Buffy about the fight/Big Bad ahead of her or about her own life.

We see Buffy hunting in S5. She gets up in the middle of the night and hunts for vampires. She had been telling herself she was just patrolling but Dracula sees the truth of it and forces her to acknowledge what she is really doing. That is why she asks Giles to be her watcher again because she knows she has so much more to learn about being a slayer.

We dont know how the dreams work as all the rules of the slayer is different now. There has only been one slayer before, so she gets any and all dreams as she's the only one that can do anything, if there are 6 slayers in one area and 3 are actively slaying, the dream might go to one of them and not them all/one of the other 3.

Well, she shared dreams with Faith so we know Faith had them too. We don't get told enough about other slayers to know. But we know they are still part of being a slayer in Fray's time because her twin brother Harth gets the dreams while she gets the strength.

The rules are even less clear in season 10, bit that is exactly what we see in Billy getting a prophecy dream, the new rules allowed him to get it, it night have been under the old rules 1 of the other slayers would have gotten it.

Not to mention Buffy isn't getting dreams of stuff happening all over the world, she only gets stuff directly relevant to her, no reason to assume that wouldn't be the same for all others.

But they still count. They are still dreams each girl would have to live with and from what we've seen some of Buffy's were absolutely horrible. If a slayer had decided to not slay her life would still be interrupted by these dreams. They aren't just nightmares, they are prophetic. Each girl would be morally obliged to do something about it. It would make it almost impossible to create a new life if the one you didn't choose kept pulling you back in.

 

[thetopher]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude- I was mainly directing my points at @Evil UU to be honest.

Basically, what it boils down to is this, all those potentials at the end of season 7 have to potential to become the next Buffy Summers, to take that power and become empowered, to fight back.

They have a choice about their place in the world, Buffy never did. But now they all do.

Imo. 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No they didn't have the choice but Buffy presents the spell as if she is giving them a choice. As if the way in which she is forcing power on these girls, whether they want it or not, is any different from what the Shadow Men did. If anything it is worse, she is doing what was done to her only 2000 times over.

But she's still giving them the choice to fight, she might be forcing them to get their power now but she's not forcing them to fight. She asks if they're ready to be strong, that doesn't necessarily mean are you ready to be physically strong, but are you ready to use that strength and fight back.

If one of the girls didn't want to be a slayer, unfortunately it didn't matter, the alternative is the slayers get picked off one by one and she either dies as a potential, or she eventually gets activated as the first makes his way through them.

Potential slayers were being persecuted for who they were, similar to any other kind of racial persecution, something they had no control over.
They were being killed for what they could become, what they had the potential to be. The activation spell allowed them to fight, even if they didn't want to fight, bringers would come for them becasue they were already marked as a potential threat.
Had Buffys plan failed and the First killed Buffy and co. in the hellmouth, the slayer line would have been over, the fist would have made it's way through the rest of the potentials and picked off each newly activated inexperienced slayer. By activating them, she over throws the rules allowing for only one, presumably so the Shadow Men could control the slayer, and allowed each girl to fight back.

I totally get that it's not real female empowerment, but it is empowering to the potentials who were being hunted because of who they were/might be and had no way to stand up to that.

That only presents in some girls. Buffy never showed any extra abilities. She was totally oblivious until Merrick turned up outside Hemery High. We know Kendra was trained from a young age but not if she had extra abilities, same goes for Faith.

Even if those abilities did present in all Potentials they manifest as being more agile or maybe faster than other girls their age. That is a million miles away from super strength.

Well we dont really know enough about the whole thing to say it's only in some girls, Buffys aptitude for Figure Skating and Cheerleading might have been directly connected to her improved reflexes, stamina etc.
I dont think they have any particularly extraordinary powers or anything, just more of a natural predilection to it.

That is operating on the assumption that all Potential Slayers want to be Slayers at all. Being called as a slayer when you don't want to be one is the exact opposite of empowerment.

Totally agree, but that issue is with the original spell. All possible slayers were in this position becasue of the original spell, most didn't know what they really were and even if they didn't want it they were going to be hunted down and killed because of what they were, or they were going to get the power anyway.
When your options are to wait to be killed, or have powers forced on you and fight alone with no choice. Having powers forced on you and having people to back you up, or just knowing that there is an army of slayer picking up your slack out there is a step up.

But that still isn't full Slayer power. They may be drawn by it but it isn't compelling them to get up in the middle of the night to go out and hunt vampires the way it did Buffy

But Buffy was only doing that at one stage in the whole 10 years of stories, she wasn't feeling that urge to hunt in the 4 years previous, and she didn't seem to have it in the 4 years after.
She patrolls, but she doesn't hunt in that natural, animalistic way it's depicted in season 5 - and at that time her entire reality had just been warped by a fake sister, she'd just made direct contact with every single other slayer before her and she was getting closer to her death, all of which her powers were trying to warn her of.

The girls in that room had already made the choice to fight, but the 2000 other girls around the world hadn't. Once you are activated it becomes almost impossible to avoid slaying. Buffy came to Sunnydale thinking she had a new start, she told Giles that she wouldn't actively slay anymore. But she wasn't allowed make that choice because the evil kept finding her. Faith had a similar experience with Kakistos.

But she didn't have a choice cuz she was the only one - that is not the case anymore, now you only fight if you want to, which it's mentioned in the comics they activated 18,000 girls and only 500 decide to fight. That means there are 500 girls willing to fight and 13,000 who dont want to. Had the next slayer been in that 13,000 she wouldn't have a choice she has now and the freedom to go do whatever she likes she'd have to fight. Yes those 13,000 girls sacrificed getting the powers, but that means they didn't have to give up their life.
Now we dont know the implications, we dont know if they are getting dreams or what, but it hasn't been addressed, so I dont think we can absolutely say those 13,000 girls are being kept awake at night by their visions, presumably if they were they would have gotten in contact with the scoobies.

The fact that evil keeps finding Buffy is also cus she's in Sunnydale, and she might have went there hoping for a new life, but we know know there are larger parts in play there (Twilight, Jasmine etc.)
Buffy goes to LA, which we know from Angel is swarming with demon activity and she avoids it for 3 months until she's spotted by someone who recognises her from Sunnydale.

And Kakistos comes after Faith directly as vengence for what she did after being made a slayer, so it's not really like evil just happened to find her, it sought her out.

Buffy even had a brush with Der Kindestod before being a slayer, so that natural magnet to evil, or evil just happening to be around might be in effect in potential slayers too...

Well, she shared dreams with Faith so we know Faith had them too. We don't get told enough about other slayers to know. But we know they are still part of being a slayer in Fray's time because her twin brother Harth gets the dreams while she gets the strength.

Oh yeah totally, they definitely can all get the dreams, but we dont know of any Faith gets that dont directly relate to Buffy who remains the Slayer in the line of duty through the run of the show.
Buffy was getting dreams of the slayers being killed in season 7, but Faith had ni idea what was going on until she was attacked. So what I mean is that the dreams seem to be responsive - in the line of fire they apply to you, out of the line and they dont.

But they still count. They are still dreams each girl would have to live with and from what we've seen some of Buffy's were absolutely horrible. If a slayer had decided to not slay her life would still be interrupted by these dreams. They aren't just nightmares, they are prophetic. Each girl would be morally obliged to do something about it. It would make it almost impossible to create a new life if the one you didn't choose kept pulling you back in.

I'm just not sure that if you weren't in the fight you'd be getting them, like how Faith didn't seem to be bothered by dreams when she was fixing her life.

The fact that the apocalypse hasn't happened means that seemingly the big ones where happening in Sunnydale, so Buffy was directly in the line of fire.
Kendra didn't get Slayer dreams about the apocalypse and come to Sunnydale, she was sent by her watcher who got that knowledge some other way.
So if you have a slayer in Sunnydale and one in Jamaica, you dont unnecessarily give prophetic dreams to the one in Jamaica when you have one in Sunnydale - I dont have much to back that up, but just going off the fact that not only did Faith or Kendra not mention getting the dreams they were none of the wiser on circumstances in Sunnydale that wasn't directly related to them