Confederate Flag

[zobothehobo]

But the flag doesn't automatically mean pro-slavery, just like a swastika on something doesn't automatically mean anti-Jew.

But their social contexts do. The confederate flag's general social context means pro-slavery... indirectly of course. And the swastika's general social context means anti-Jew... indirectly of course. But nonetheless... that's the social context of the symbol.

 

[arabella]

But their social contexts do. The confederate flag's general social context means pro-slavery... indirectly of course. And the swastika's general social context means anti-Jew... indirectly of course. But nonetheless... that's the social context of the symbol.

That's not necessarily true here...yes, it is extremely likely that if you saw a guy with a swastika tattooed on top of his shaved head that he is probably racist...but without the swastika, the shaved head, combat boots, and terrible attitude towards anyone non-white would give that away too. Of all of those things, the attitude is the only thing I have a problem with.

With the confederate flag, if you ask many of the southerners who wear it today what it means to them, the majority of them will say "Southern Pride!" or some variation of that and not "I wish to have slaves and abhor people of African descent." To them, it is a symbol of southern pride just as a cross is a symbol of christianity...regardless of any negative things that may have been done in the past under the banner of either.

I can think of no better thing for the future of the Swastika than for kind, practicing Buddhists to reclaim it's meaning.

 

[white avenger]

Name me one reason for the civil war that doesn't come back to slavery.

Okay, one reason:

Prior to the Secession, between 80 and 90% of all "tariffs" or taxes, were collected from the Southern states, while the Northern states paid the balance. However, due to the Northern states' control of Congress, 75 to 95% of all government spending was done in and for the advantage of the Northern states. When the Southern states withdrew from the Union, there was too much of a decrease in tax revenue to keep the nation financially solvent.

I am in no way supporting the institution of slavery or trying to excuse it. Slavery is an abomination, and undoubtedly one of the worst offenses that one human being could impose upon another. But the major issue of the Civil War was whether the individual states had the right to govern themselves without interference from a central government authority, as was guaranteed by the Constitution, and the right to secede from the Union if they ever chose to do so, for whatever reason.

 

[wickedtiger86]

This is something that I've actually never given much thought to, until now.

My business partner specializes in making Civil War re-enactment clothing and has a confederate flag in her room. That said, she also has flags with a huge variety of symbols and signs from the time period.

Walking into her room, I didn't think about any of the negative things associated with the flag and just saw it as a part of history.

Beyond that I can see all the points on here. And I remember when I saw "A Time to Kill" that I had a negative reaction to seeing that some characters had the confederate flag on the back of their truck.

However, that negative reaction was only brought out of me because I had just seen these characters perform a hate crime. So I don't know if I would have had that same reaction otherwise.

 

[sisterofmercy]

It's pretty as far as flags go, that's the extent of my opinion on it. I think as long as those who have them don't subscribe to the negative element of the ideology behind it then fair enough. It's just a flag.

 

[Goby]

I can think of no better thing for the future of the Swastika than for kind, practicing Buddhists to reclaim it's meaning.

I agree. And in Asia, where the Holocaust isn't as well known, the Swastika is still used.

But can you imagine me wearing this? It's a Buddhist medal honoring polio survivors.

 

[randiann]

[MENTION=10790]Goby[/MENTION], can you imagine though if those became popular like the "I love boobies" bracelets and we as a society were able to reclaim the image and make it into a positive symbol? It'd be sort of an "f you" to the Nazis. Now whether we could actually accomplish that or not is another thing. In my honest opinion, it may still be too soon to try to reclaim that particular symbol. But if it means something special to someone they should by all means sport it and work to educate the public in its true meaning and why they choose to use it.

Warning: theoretically educating the public and actually being able to do so are two very very different things, and the latter may be dangerous to your health.

 

[xfivebyfive]

This discussion reminds me of Clerks II one of the characters randall is talking about his grandmother and how she refers to lazy people as porch monkeys. And the other characters tell him its a racist term for black people. He tries to reclaim the term porch monkey as a non racist term. But you can't do that. All he ends up doing is nearly getting his butt kicked and offended everyone in the restaurant.

Like [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION] said it doesnt matter if some people choose to see the flag as showing southern pride because society deemed it a symbol of a horrible period for our country, a symbol of hatred and racism. That isn't something to be proud of whether you're from the north or the south. Displaying the flag isn't showing southern pride its showing pride in one of the most disgusting times in our nations history.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Its funny that tonight on the News some kid I think somewhere in south Jersey wore a Confederate Flag T-shirt and got suspended from school or whatever and the mom complained and defended saying thier not racist, etc.

 

[Buffy Summers]

There are SO MANY worse things out there - impacting that kid's education because he wore that shirt to school is ridiculous. Don't suspend kids for attacking other students, but suspend them for that. Stupidity.

People should spend their time working against REAL problems in this world rather than worrying about a FLAG.

 

[patriot1123]

I can think of no better thing for the future of the Swastika than for kind, practicing Buddhists to reclaim it's meaning.

There is something to be said for that. I recall when I was growing up and Dick Gregory's autobiography came out, with the title being the n-word. On the cover of the book was this message for his later mother: "Momma, now when you hear this word you'll know they're talking about my book."

Co-opting an evil term is good, but it's not easy.

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------

I agree. And in Asia, where the Holocaust isn't as well known, the Swastika is still used.

Indeed. I remember when my son was young, and the Jewish mother of one of his soccer teammates was (rightly) outraged to discover a swastika on one of her son's Pokemon cards. It prompted me to do some research, and I discovered for the first time (I had not previously known this) that, prior to the Nazis, the swastika had benevolent meanings and uses. But that (rightly) didn't mollify my friend. Nor should it have.

 

[randiann]

This discussion reminds me of Clerks II one of the characters randall is talking about his grandmother and how she refers to lazy people as porch monkeys. And the other characters tell him its a racist term for black people. He tries to reclaim the term porch monkey as a non racist term. But you can't do that. All he ends up doing is nearly getting his butt kicked and offended everyone in the restaurant.

Like [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION] said it doesnt matter if some people choose to see the flag as showing southern pride because society deemed it a symbol of a horrible period for our country, a symbol of hatred and racism. That isn't something to be proud of whether you're from the north or the south. Displaying the flag isn't showing southern pride its showing pride in one of the most disgusting times in our nations history.

See above disclaimer about the difference of theoretically educating the public and actually doing so.

You have to consider which society though? New York's society is a completely different creature than Southern US society. What may be deemed uncooth in the North is not necessarily so in the South, and vice versa. For an unrelated example, when I lived in NY one of the things that bothered me the most and one of the things that I felt was INCREDIBLY rude is that no one held doors open for other people. You would literally be walking behind someone and come up to a building, and they would drop the door in your face every time. I refuse to do this, and will go out of my way to hold doors open and I get looked at as the weirdo. If someone dropped a door in someone's face here where I live, it would be considered incredibly rude. Hell, at work we even have a rule against itfor "security" reasons. Do you know how many people follow that rule? None. Why? Because we rather face a verbal reprimand at work than for our mothers to find out we didn't hold the door open for someone.

What the Stars and Bars mean in the North and in the South are two different things to most people, and your definition of what the symbolism behind it will vary from person to person. Hence the discussion. To me, stating that a symbol means only one specific thing on a societial level or across the board is just inaccurate.

 

[sjscottt80]

New term...

I'm anti-Confederate Flag. I think it a symbol of hatred.

But I am pro-Atomic bomb. 🙄

And I agree with [MENTION=6330]arabella[/MENTION] regarding the US Flag. We've done some pretty crappy things. And most of my friends who call me a "United Statesian" think so, too.

This board was the first time I ever saw "United Statesian" -- definitely using that in the future! Funny! LOL.

 

[arabella]

This board was the first time I ever saw "United Statesian" -- definitely using that in the future! Funny! LOL.

Lol...I have a problem with saying "American" unless I mean all of North and South America. United Statesian is more correct and I invite everyone to use it 😀

 

[Goby]

Lol...I have a problem with saying "American" unless I mean all of North and South America. United Statesian is more correct and I invite everyone to use it 😀

My South American friends love the term and introduced me to it.

 

[arabella]

My South American friends love the term and introduced me to it.

I swear this is my last tangential comment...

That's awesome. I picked up the term when I was living in Guatemala for a summer after talking about it with some friends there!

 

[Gum Gnome33]

To me, stating that a symbol means only one specific thing on a societial level or across the board is just inaccurate.

Except for when that symbol represents something so atrocious to so many people, that its original significance has essentially been replaced. As a Jewish person, I can tell you that seeing a swastika will always evoke a visceral response from me and from every Jewish person I know, (and we have had many conversations about this, believe me). I am well aware of the peaceful origins of the symbol but couldn't care less about them when I see one in front of me.
As for changing the significance of a symbol to something good, once it's been tainted? Nice idea in theory, but never going to happen. Just like the souls of those who were slaughtered in the Holocaust or during this country's period of slavery will never be brought back to life. And those who feel a close connection to a given symbol either by heritage or by culture will likely never be able to associate with anything positive, nor should they be expected to. And we need to be sensitive to that. When you mention symbols that evoke rememberances of times in the history of the Earth in which human beings acted no better than demons from hell, it doesn't matter much anymore what else they could possibly mean to anyone.

The other thing at play is what people actually mean today when they display these symbols. When we see a Confederate flag today, we think that somebody is trying to display pride for the South. But it seems to me that there are many ways to do that that don't include flying a flag that, 150 years ago, represented (among other things of course),the desire to keep slaves. And if someone in the West is wearing a swastika, come on, we all know what that means.

So as arbitrary as these symbols are, at some point in time they took on a new significance. Maybe a Confederate flag has nothing to do with slavery for a given individual, but in our culture of both past and present, the connotations are there. A swastika is a far more clear-cut case (and by the way isn't the best analogy for the Confederate flag situation), and it should never be tolerated unless it is absolutely and positively clear that its use is directly and intentionally connected to Buddhism and even then it is quite a risk.

For an unrelated example, when I lived in NY one of the things that bothered me the most and one of the things that I felt was INCREDIBLY rude is that no one held doors open for other people.

But this example exists on a completely different scale and is a universe away from the swastika debate and even the Confederate flag arugment. People will always find things offensive. Actions, slogans, words, whatever. Clashing cultures, values, and opinions will always cause tensions and discomfort. But when both the significance and the consequences of these actions are relatively benign, then all we can do is try not to hurt others, but not worry too much when it inevitably occurs in these kinds of settings. Again, this can't be compared to symbols representing extermination and slavery.

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

 

[arabella]

@gun gnome33, I agree that the Swastika probably should've never made it into this conversation. To me a swastika/cross conversation would've been more equitable. As to the confederate flag, I'd argue that it does not have the same visceral reaction that the swastika has for most people. It did not just represent slavery and now that is certainly not what it represents for 99% of those who wear of fly it. And maybe there are "better" ways to represent southern pride, but one very recognizable one is using that flag.

 

[randiann]

Except for when that symbol represents something so atrocious to so many people, that its original significance has essentially been replaced. As a Jewish person, I can tell you that seeing a swastika will always evoke a visceral response from me and from every Jewish person I know, (and we have had many conversations about this, believe me). I am well aware of the peaceful origins of the symbol but couldn't care less about them when I see one in front of me.
As for changing the significance of a symbol to something good, once it's been tainted? Nice idea in theory, but never going to happen. Just like the souls of those who were slaughtered in the Holocaust or during this country's period of slavery will never be brought back to life. And those who feel a close connection to a given symbol either by heritage or by culture will likely never be able to associate with anything positive, nor should they be expected to. And we need to be sensitive to that. When you mention symbols that evoke rememberances of times in the history of the Earth in which human beings acted no better than demons from hell, it doesn't matter much anymore what else they could possibly mean to anyone.

The other thing at play is what people actually mean today when they display these symbols. When we see a Confederate flag today, we think that somebody is trying to display pride for the South. But it seems to me that there are many ways to do that that don't include flying a flag that, 150 years ago, represented (among other things of course),the desire to keep slaves. And if someone in the West is wearing a swastika, come on, we all know what that means.

So as arbitrary as these symbols are, at some point in time they took on a new significance. Maybe a Confederate flag has nothing to do with slavery for a given individual, but in our culture of both past and present, the connotations are there. A swastika is a far more clear-cut case (and by the way isn't the best analogy for the Confederate flag situation), and it should never be tolerated unless it is absolutely and positively clear that its use is directly and intentionally connected to Buddhism and even then it is quite a risk.



But this example exists on a completely different scale and is a universe away from the swastika debate and even the Confederate flag arugment. People will always find things offensive. Actions, slogans, words, whatever. Clashing cultures, values, and opinions will always cause tensions and discomfort. But when both the significance and the consequences of these actions are relatively benign, then all we can do is try not to hurt others, but not worry too much when it inevitably occurs in these kinds of settings. Again, this can't be compared to symbols representing extermination and slavery.

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

This is why I also mentioned that I felt it was too soon to actually be able to reclaim (or even attempt) to reclaim that symbol. And with that, it may never happen. But take the N word for example: it is in the process of being reclaimed now. It will never be socially acceptable for anyone to use this word at liberty, but a large chunk of our population already feels pretty comfortable using it and isn't offended by it (given it is used in the correct context). Hopefully one day it won't be considered any worse than a mild slur friends use amongst themselves. This word 50 years ago was a HUGE insult; yet the Black community has been able to change the connotations of the word when used in certain instances. Can it still be used as an insult; sure. But that word has already lost a lot of power that it used to have.

Society is an ever evolving creature, and varies from region to region. The door example was simply a demonstration of how society can differ in various locations; it is not on par with the symbols we are discussing nor should it be. A mild (albeit extremely irritating) insult is never analogous with a(n arguably) symbol of hate. It's just an example of how our societies across the world differ.

To me, the Stars and Bars are no more synonymous with racism than the swastika is to anti-Semitism in Buddhist culture. I don't see any relation between the two anymore personally. I understand that other people do, but lots of people don't as well. And I also agree that the swastika/flag analogy is not a very good one at all.

I still think it'd be awesome if we could reclaim this symbol and take away its power over people. Letting it have power over people is just letting the hatred it provokes continue.

 

[kittenpoker]

I just want to say that this is a very interesting conversation!