Conversations With Dead People

[Chasing Cordy]

I think it's a bit odd for Joyce (or whatever "it" was) to appear to Dawn and not Buffy.
Unless "it" wanted to get the full freak-out effect by appearing to a more susceptible Dawn as opposed to a more grounded Buffy.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Why was that odd.
IF the First had known anything about Buffy, the best way to attack her is to remove family and friends......
Dawn was the perfect choice, as was Willow.
I don't think it has anything to do with who was more susceptible, i mean later in the season Joyce does make an appearance to Buffy

 

[Zephos]

I don't even think that was supposed to be the First - at least it wasn't intended to be when the episode was written. I think they abandoned the storyline in which Buffy doesn't choose Dawn.
Anyway, I like to think it was Joyce, as she neither manipulates Dawn or gives any indication she may be trying to lead either of her daughters to harm. I also like to think Joyce was visiting Buffy in her dreams, to support her.

 

[arabella]

^ based on what?

************

 

[Zephos]

Based on the fact that a helluva lot of season 7 isn't explained in the show, and a lot comes down to speculation. And that is exactly what I'm doing.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Based on the fact that a helluva lot of season 7 isn't explained in the show, and a lot comes down to speculation. And that is exactly what I'm doing.

not quite, unless you didnt explain yourself in your first comment.

I don't even think that was supposed to be the First - at least it wasn't intended to be when the episode was written. I think they abandoned the storyline in which Buffy doesn't choose Dawn.

The structure of the sentence implies you have this information from a source, possibly credible.
Like Arabella seems to suggest, you have made this assumption(which i won't deny has a plausibility to it, one i have considered), but purveyed the information as something that you could back up with credible source, ie Joss, Fury or someone show related.
Now, i haven't heard any of this, and would like to see any IF you have such information.

Anyway, I like to think it was Joyce, as she neither manipulates Dawn or gives any indication she may be trying to lead either of her daughters to harm. I also like to think Joyce was visiting Buffy in her dreams, to support her.

In this, i would LOVE to believe it was Joyce not First/Joyce, but to be honest, i have no idea how you can say
'as she neither manipulates Dawn or gives any indication she may be trying to lead either of her daughters to harm'
Erm, excuse me, but did 'Joyce' or did she not tell Dawn that Buffy would not choose her. To me thats someone manipulating Dawn to not trust Buffy, and we see that near the end, the situation is manipulated perfectly by all to oust Buffy briefly.

And this...
'I also like to think Joyce was visiting Buffy in her dreams, to support her'
I gotta say, again i would LOVE to agree with your belief, but read the second scene she is in in 'Bring on the Night'.

JOYCE (O.S.)
Buffy, what happened?

BUFFY
(looks up, and finds herself in her house, talking to her mother) Uh, oh, it's OK, Mom.

JOYCE
I tried to warn you, but"”right. The last thing you need now is one of helpful Mom's guilt trips. I'll get you some ice.

BUFFY
No. Mom, I-I can't.

JOYCE
Buffy, you have to heal.

BUFFY
I don't have time.

JOYCE
Are you worried about the sun going down? Because there's some things you can't control. The sun always goes down, the sun always comes up.

BUFFY
Everyone's counting on me.

JOYCE
Well, they do that, and I'm sorry, Buffy, but these-these friends of you put too much pressure on you. They always have.

BUFFY
Something evil is coming.

JOYCE
Buffy, evil isn't coming, it's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's everywhere.

BUFFY
And I have to stop it.

JOYCE
How are you gonna do that?

BUFFY
I-I don't know yet, but"”

JOYCE
Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even"”

Joyce is almost trying to convince Buffy that her friends are the reason she is in this state, that their pressure is what is causing the issue followed by this...
'JOYCE
Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even"”'

This to me implies that whoever this person is, is telling Buffy that there is no point to continue the fight, that the Evil will still exist, so what is the point.
Now, if that was Joyce, in my mind she would be a little more positive then she is here, rather then almost saying its almost pointless, you can't stop this thing, your friends are pressuring you, you are tired, just leave it.....someone else can clear it up.
We know that the First has a vested interest in Buffy NOT continuing the fight.
🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah me too. I always wanted to believe it was the real Joyce. In fact when the writer of the Dawn scenes - Jayne Espenson - came out saying it was the First, I used to argue maybe it still wasn't clear, but then that damned Joss Whedon did an interview where he said it was the First too, so it was pretty much impossible to deny.

You can find links to the info in the Whedonverse Index at the top of your page.

 

[watcher1006]

To me it seemed ambiguous in CWDP about whether the figure of Joyce was the First or not. As I recollect she appeared to Dawn in glowy Charmed fashion, whereas the First otherwise just appeared normally, as if the person were actually there.

But yes, if Joyce was supposed to be the First in CWDP I could accept it.

In the later episodes when Joyce appeared to speak to Buffy, I had no doubt whatsoever that it was the First.

 

[arabella]

The structure of the sentence implies you have this information from a source, possibly credible.
Like Arabella seems to suggest, you have made this assumption

yes thank you that was what I was trying to say. And I suspected that the assumption was incorrect, as (thanks N4H) seems to be supporting.

 

[Helpless]

I for one, didn't think of it as strange at all. Buffy wouldn't of been that scared, but Dawn of course, was freaking out.

I always wanted to believe it wasn't The First but as Nerd4Hire says, it is the First and it's impossible to deny.

Anyways, I don't think it was weird...I'm not particularly fond of this episode but it was well written, I'll give it that.

 

[sizzle-sozzle]

i thought this was a wicked episode it was so good how the First appeared to Willow and Dawn and tried to throw them off their game.plus Buffy had that conversation with that vampire she used to know and she learnt some stuff about herself.what i thought was really cool and mean is it was pretending to be communicating with Tara and how the First tried to get Willow to kill herself, i mean there was just no way it would beable to get Willow to do that no matter how bad it got for her.

anyway back to the First appearing to Dawn and not Buffy i think if it had appeared to Buffy and not Dawn Buffy probably would of worked out it was the First and not her mum,whereas Dawn was vulnerable and she really wanted to believe it was her mum as she was missing her.to be honest i actually did think it was suppose to be her mum first of all but then i realised it was just the First tying to trick Dawn into not trusting Buffy and going against her,which is what ended up happening.

 

[Helpless]

I was never to fond of this episode, until a couple of nights ago. I watched it and I was amazed...the Willow and Cassie conversation was pure bliss. I thought it was cruel but I loved it, how Willow was calling out to Tara...it made me feel sad inside, but I loved it.

I also loved the whole Buffy and that dude...I'm sorry, I forget his name. There conversation was funny, and how they started fighting on and off.

 

[Schillaci]

I think it's a bit odd for Joyce (or whatever "it" was) to appear to Dawn and not Buffy.
Unless "it" wanted to get the full freak-out effect by appearing to a more susceptible Dawn as opposed to a more grounded Buffy.

I agree. There was NO point in the first appearing before Dawn. What purpose did it serve? Dawn has no power, she has no authority. She has no say, she's just a silly girl. What purpose did she serve fighting against the first?

WAs it ALL for that stupid scene where she gives her support in kicking Buffy out the house? Because, if the First could see that that would happen, then it could also see the subsequent events that follow.

 

[Zephos]

not quite, unless you didnt explain yourself in your first comment

The structure of the sentence implies you have this information from a source, possibly credible.

Indeed - I have read somewhere that it was an abandoned storyline, but for the life of me I can't remember were I read it or if it was even more than a rumour. That's why I said "apparently". Also, Joyce's appearence isn't explained or followed up on at all, apart from Dawn being shaken. Had it been the First, it would have certainly returned to repeat the message to Dawn and attempt to drive a wedge between her and her sister. Similarly, if it had been Joyce there would have been equally interesting consequences. But the fact is - it isn't clear enough to make a solid decision in either direction. So would LIKE to think it was the realy Joyce, but of course there's nothing solid to point to that other than that thing I read that was either a rumour or my imagination. Sorry for confusion.

In this, i would LOVE to believe it was Joyce not First/Joyce, but to be honest, i have no idea how you can say
'as she neither manipulates Dawn or gives any indication she may be trying to lead either of her daughters to harm'
Erm, excuse me, but did 'Joyce' or did she not tell Dawn that Buffy would not choose her. To me thats someone manipulating Dawn to not trust Buffy, and we see that near the end, the situation is manipulated perfectly by all to oust Buffy briefly.

It's not really - Dawn is the one who "doesn't choose" Buffy, not the other way around. I think it would have been very interesting to either have the First return as Joyce to repeat the message to Dawn and events appear to lead to Buffy making the "choice", or the choice is something deeper, to do with how much Buffy loves Dawn and how she'd choose someone else if the possibility of harm came to Dawn. It could have gone either way, but it certainly didn't.

JOYCE
Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even"”'

This to me implies that whoever this person is, is telling Buffy that there is no point to continue the fight, that the Evil will still exist, so what is the point.
Now, if that was Joyce, in my mind she would be a little more positive then she is here, rather then almost saying its almost pointless, you can't stop this thing, your friends are pressuring you, you are tired, just leave it.....someone else can clear it up.
We know that the First has a vested interest in Buffy NOT continuing the fight.
🙂

That's all very true, and I had in fact forgot about that particular line. While I'd imagine Joyce saying this if she were still alive, but in death she'd probably be much more supportive. So it's hard to tell in this example, and the evidence leans more towards the First, or at least a negative influence.

Darn, there go my hopes! But still, the fact that we never saw Joyce as the First in an obvious way still lets me hang on to the hope that she isn't used to manipulate her daughters. But, of course, that could have been scheduling conflict for Kristine Sutherland or some other reason she couldn't/wouldn't come in. Like Amber Benson.