Conversations with Dead People...

[Giants Rule 04]

I was just watching this episode again and I thought of something.

Andrew, Spike and Willow were all getting visits from the first while Buffy was talking to that vampire, but what was the deal with Dawn?

Was Joyce the first, and if so, what was with the creature attacking Joyce and keeping her from connecting with Dawn? Was the creature the first and Dawn was able to fight it off enough to get a message from her mom?

Thoughts?

 

[Flannen]

I watched this episode today too 😀

What I thought was going on was that Joyce was the First, but as the First was trying to make them them all think they were talking to loved ones; like Cassie/First was making out she was mediating a conversation between Willow and Tara, with Dawn, the First presented itself as a poltergeist type spirit that made out it was preventing Joyce from being at rest. But when Dawn 'fought' it off, the message from Joyce was in fact the First trying to make Dawn doubt whether she could trust Buffy.

That's what I think was going on anyway. Other people may have interpreted it differently 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I was just watching this episode again and I thought of something.

Andrew, Spike and Willow were all getting visits from the first while Buffy was talking to that vampire, but what was the deal with Dawn?

Was Joyce the first, and if so, what was with the creature attacking Joyce and keeping her from connecting with Dawn? Was the creature the first and Dawn was able to fight it off enough to get a message from her mom?

Thoughts?

Joyce was the First and the 'creature' was also the First to make Dawn really believe what as being said.

The First would know that the gang would ork out who was behind this, so what better way to have someone question it than the old double bluff.

 

[itsxpaperdoll]

I think Joyce was indeed the First. I think the First knew how susceptible Dawn was and therefore I think he really wanted to make her believe, to make her lose trust in Buffy, whatever. It's been some time since I watched this episode, but if I remember correctly, 'Joyce' and her message wasn't really 'Joyce-like', and way more in the First's bit of the woods.

 

[Revolver]

I agree. If it had really been Joyce, the message would have been for her daughter to leave and never come back. Joyce loved that little threat!

 

[Willowsgirl]

I'm not sure that Joyce was the first. I think it was the hell mouth. Althrough out this season, the Hell mouth was freaking out, I think this was another example. While it was true that the hell mouth was freaking out because of the first, I think that was more incidental than anything else. The first may have been munipulating the hell mouth to do that to Dawn, but I don't think it was the first itself.

 

[Flannen]

I'm not sure that Joyce was the first. I think it was the hell mouth. Althrough out this season, the Hell mouth was freaking out, I think this was another example. While it was true that the hell mouth was freaking out because of the first, I think that was more incidental than anything else. The first may have been munipulating the hell mouth to do that to Dawn, but I don't think it was the first itself.

If this was a singular incident, and Dawn was the only one who experienced contact with the dead, then I would see how this fits, but I think that as all of the Scoobies were visited by various manifestations of the First, and they were all different, what Dawn experienced was also the First itself.

The First manifested itself as something personal to each Scooby, something which would make them react the most individually. For Willow it was Tara, and being warned of the danger of her power and for Dawn, it was Joyce not being at rest.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Jane Espenson says that Joyce is the First on the DVD commentary for this episode. I think that point of debate is pretty well settled. But I'm not sure it was evident in the action itself, so some confusion is completely understandable. I keep wondering if Joyce is the First every time she shows up--when Buffy dreams her those two times, also.

 

[Willowsgirl]

The First manifested itself as something personal to each Scooby, something which would make them react the most individually. For Willow it was Tara, and being warned of the danger of her power and for Dawn, it was Joyce not being at rest.

This quote has made me think of a question. Does Xander ever see the first? I'm pretty sure that he doesn't in this episode, but does he in any ohters? If so who did it manifest itself as? I honestly can't remember if Xander did see the first. And if he didn't see the first why not?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Jane Espenson says that Joyce is the First on the DVD commentary for this episode. I think that point of debate is pretty well settled. But I'm not sure it was evident in the action itself, so some confusion is completely understandable. I keep wondering if Joyce is the First every time she shows up--when Buffy dreams her those two times, also.

Jane Espensen has a certain level of credence because she is a writer, but the fact remains that until we're told something within the text, its open for discussion because its not proven with the Buffy World.


On a side note, I would have liked Xander to have said something in the next episode, something along the lines of 'I just spent the night talking to Jesse, now you're telling me its The First...I should have realised that when he said...'.

It would have been a nice little touch to realise that not everything that happens, we see on the screen.

 

[Flannen]

This quote has made me think of a question. Does Xander ever see the first? I'm pretty sure that he doesn't in this episode, but does he in any ohters? If so who did it manifest itself as? I honestly can't remember if Xander did see the first. And if he didn't see the first why not?

Xander is the only one who isn't in Conservations With Dead People, so he doesn't experience it like the others.

At this moment I can't remember if he has any individual experiences with the First. But I'm rewatching Season 7 at the moment, so I'll let you know. Unless anyone else can tell you beforehand 😛

 

[Willowsgirl]

I still have my doubts that it was the first. Dawns experience was extremely different than Buffys, Willows or anyone else for that matter that First came to through out the season. The first was up front Willow, it just came and started talking to her. There was really no need to scare her. Faith was the same way when she saw the mayor. Andrew is the same way. So why would it do that to Dawn? I just find it odd that the first decided to terrify Dawn before coming to her as her mohter when it didn't with the rest. That inconsistancy just doesn't make sense to me.

Also if you recall, Buffy did try to send Dawn away when things got hard. She didn't choose Dawn to fight in the battle with the rest. Exactly like Joyce said she wouldn't.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I still have my doubts that it was the first. Dawns experience was extremely different than Buffys, Willows or anyone else for that matter that First came to through out the season. The first was up front Willow, it just came and started talking to her. There was really no need to scare her. Faith was the same way when she saw the mayor. Andrew is the same way. So why would it do that to Dawn? I just find it odd that the first decided to terrify Dawn before coming to her as her mohter when it didn't with the rest. That inconsistancy just doesn't make sense to me.

Also if you recall, Buffy did try to send Dawn away when things got hard. She didn't choose Dawn to fight in the battle with the rest. Exactly like Joyce said she wouldn't.

Thats not quite how it happened, is it?
With Willow it tried, and failed, to get her to take her own life by pretending to be Cassie talking to Tara.
It wasn't upfront until Willow realised that Tara wouldn't ask those things.

With Andrew, it was manipulating him to do things by being Warren, the man he 'loved'.

The Firsts true power came in the fact that it did tell the truth.
Maybe not all the time, but its credibility was there on the most part because it used the truth to manipulate them.

What the First said to Dawn though, wasn't that she would be allowed to fight, it was that in the end Buffy wouldn't choose her - which Buffy admits to in conversation with Giles. She says that she would sacrifice Dawn for the good of the world.

This is a perfect example of the villain using a bit of information, out of context to manipulate the good guys.

Its like when Skip shows Cordelia Angel in 'Birthday' talking to the powers and him saying she is weak and a stupid girl - out of context that is harsh, but in context it wasn't.

 

[Flannen]

I thought that Joyce/First's message was more about Buffy choosing the 'fight/mission' over Dawn, not putting her first. And I'm not saying that is the right answer, at all. That's just how I saw it. The great thing about open-ended events like this is that they can be read in so many ways.

I think the First took advantage of the fact Dawn was young and alone in the house and simply did just want to terrify her. but I do see what you mean by the fact that the experiences were SO different.

 

[Willowsgirl]

Thats not quite how it happened, is it?
With Willow it tried, and failed, to get her to take her own life by pretending to be Cassie talking to Tara.
It wasn't upfront until Willow realised that Tara wouldn't ask those things.

With Andrew, it was manipulating him to do things by being Warren, the man he 'loved'.

The Firsts true power came in the fact that it did tell the truth.
Maybe not all the time, but its credibility was there on the most part because it used the truth to manipulate them.

What the First said to Dawn though, wasn't that she would be allowed to fight, it was that in the end Buffy wouldn't choose her - which Buffy admits to in conversation with Giles. She says that she would sacrifice Dawn for the good of the world.

This is a perfect example of the villain using a bit of information, out of context to manipulate the good guys.

Its like when Skip shows Cordelia Angel in 'Birthday' talking to the powers and him saying she is weak and a stupid girl - out of context that is harsh, but in context it wasn't.

I feel like your not getting what mean when I say "Up front." I don't mean that the first came up and said it was the first or that it didn't try to minuplate them like with Andrew and Willow and hell everyone else. What I mean is it didn't try to terrify them with something like a demonic possession. The first just came up and let the words scare them instead and tried to cast doubts in there minds with words, there was nothing physical about it. Why would it make Dawn phyiscal terrified when it didn't do that to the others? Why did it change its tactics like that? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Revolver]

Sometimes the truth hurts more than a lie so why wouldn't the First use the truth when it was to it's advantage?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I feel like your not getting what mean when I say "Up front." I don't mean that the first came up and said it was the first or that it didn't try to minuplate them like with Andrew and Willow and hell everyone else. What I mean is it didn't try to terrify them with something like a demonic possession. The first just came up and let the words scare them instead and tried to cast doubts in there minds with words, there was nothing physical about it. Why would it make Dawn phyiscal terrified when it didn't do that to the others? Why did it change its tactics like that? It doesn't make sense to me.

It didn't use the same tactics on any of the three in that episode.

It used three separate methods to manipulate them.

It got Andrew to do what it required by being Warren - the person he expected.

It tried to get Willow to do what it wanted by being Cassie, who relayed a message from 'Tara'.

It manipulated Dawn by making her believe that something else was there, in the way before it could be Joyce.

In fact, if you look at it like that, Dawn is the amalgamation of both situations.

Situation 1 - The First is the 'person' needed to manipulate.
Situation 2 - The First uses another 'person' to manipulate.
Situation 3 - The First uses another being to manipulate then reveals the 'person' to manipulate.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Jane Espensen has a certain level of credence because she is a writer, but the fact remains that until we're told something within the text, its open for discussion because its not proven with the Buffy World.

Good point. I suppose it depends on how much a person relies on the author to provide the "truth" of the text. But that's a much bigger discussion and has nothing to do with this episode, so . . . .

*wanders back to the topic*

I liked seeing Joyce again, even if she WAS (maybe) the First. 😀

 

[Willowsgirl]

It didn't use the same tactics on any of the three in that episode.

It used three separate methods to manipulate them.

It got Andrew to do what it required by being Warren - the person he expected.

It tried to get Willow to do what it wanted by being Cassie, who relayed a message from 'Tara'.

It manipulated Dawn by making her believe that something else was there, in the way before it could be Joyce.

In fact, if you look at it like that, Dawn is the amalgamation of both situations.

Situation 1 - The First is the 'person' needed to manipulate.
Situation 2 - The First uses another 'person' to manipulate.
Situation 3 - The First uses another being to manipulate then reveals the 'person' to manipulate.

But the first didn't try to make Willow or Andrew or anyone else physically terrified! I'm not just talking about the episode any more, I'm talking about the whole show.

The first time the first shows up is when Angel comes back from hell and it used his past kills to manipluate him. No physical munipluation or anything just letting its words do it instead. The next time is when it uses all the Big Bads plus Buffy to get to Spike. Although Spike was shaken it had more to do with the fact he was going crazy as it is, once again NO physical manipulation on the part of the first just words. Then Andrew and Willow where words where the weapon again nothing physical. I'll admit tha the first used different people each time depending on the individual, but it was still the same basic pattern. It just came right up and tried to use the words to manipulate rather than physical actions like a demonic possesion.

Dawn is the only where, if it was the first, it saw fit to physically terrify her. Why? I don't see the need to go to all that trouble. In fact it would be smarter to just come at Dawn as her mother instead of sending her through all that, because Dawn would have been more easy to manipluate than the others.

I don't mean to sound stuburn about this, but I'm just not convinced.

EDIT:

I concede the point about truth telling Vs lying.

 

[Fusions2]

Dawn is the only where, if it was the first, it saw fit to physically terrify her. Why? I don't see the need to go to all that trouble. In fact it would be smarter to just come at Dawn as her mother instead of sending her through all that, because Dawn would have been more easy to manipluate than the others.

Because it really wanted to scare the crap out of her by thinking her mum was really in trouble by some horrible evil demon. To have her go through all that, then see her mum and have her mum say Buffy won't chose you is enough to mess Dawn up. It puts self doubt in her mind at Buffy's ability to protect. If Joyce had showed up and just said it, to Dawn that would have been completely overshadowed as Im sure she'd more thrilled just to see her mum again.

The First wanted to shake Willow and Dawn up in a way that would make them doubt Buffy and themselves. Look how it tried to get to Willow, it was asking her to kill herself because she'll turn evil the next time she does magic and Tara doesn't want that. That was complete crap and in the end luckily Willow knew what was going on. Dawn unfortunately didn't, when she was attacked because The First used brute force and then manipulated Dawn in to thinking her mum was ok. I know if that had been me I wouldn't have guessed it was The First talking to me like that.