Cookie analogy- Bangel is back !

[PrincessBuffy16]

Well in one way Buffy and Angel never got that chance either. I mean all she ever wanted was to be an ordinary girl with an ordinary life. And he left because of that. He gave her the greatest gift all time - he gave her future. And he paid that price. You maybe see Buffy happy in seasons 6 and 7. But I don't. She is not Buffy anymore. She looks like Buffy, and she talks like Buffy, but that girl is not Buffy. Buffy was strong and she knew what was best for her, and when she did wrong she did admit that and tried to make that right. In episode Selfless she said this: "I killed Angel. Do you even remember that? I would've given up everything I had to be with- I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."
And this is the best proof because Buffy said this. Buffy herself. And maybe in some other life, in some other time, she could love Spike more then Angel. But not now, and not here.

 

[Flannen]

I think WA was just having some harmless fun with that comment 🙂

This is what is bugging me. The use of the words "more", etc when talking about our perferred ships.

Flannen my friend, didn't we agree earlier that it's all ultimately up to interpretation and opinion? If this is the case, how could Angel have given her "more" room to be a "lady"? And more than Spike "ever could'? How could we even know that? We don't know what Spike and Buffy could have been if they'd been given the chance to make it work. He died, remember? And apparently she doesn't even know he's back from the dead.

I know it was harmless fun. It doesn't mean I'm not going to respond 😉

And yes, we did it agree it was all interpretation and opinion, but you also said, like WA, that it's fun to argue/debate. Which, yeah, it is!

Both sides are guilty of using the word "more". Every individual in each side will be guilty of it. In a situation like this, we all, consciously or subconsciously, use persuasive writing, which leads to using words like 'more' and 'better'.

And what I was referring to about Angel giving her "more room" is basically what Angelic Slayer said in the 'Who Loves Buffy More?' thread (I think). Angel gave her room, by leaving at the end of season three, leaving Buffy to be who she wanted and needed to be. He understood Buffy in 'The Yoko Factor' that by staying around, he wouldn't be helping, he understood Buffy in 'Chosen' and left, quietly. Whereas Spike continually made his presence felt even when Buffy made it clear she didn't want him there. Say it was the other way around, I don't think Spike would have left as quietly as Angel did, or accept Buffy's decision to give the amulet Angel, in the same way Angel did with her decision to give it to Spike. And I don't think it's down to Spike fighting for her more or anything, it'd be down to him not knowing when to step back and give Buffy space.

Also, regarding the rape being used constantly as an argument, a lot of people, Spuffies, Bangels or people who 'ship other couples as passionately as we do these two, find that action awful. It's always going to be a big thing, that poses a huge problem for some fans, whether Spike has done enough to redeem himself or not. Just in the same way, why Angel didn't choose to be human in IWRY and be with Buffy is a big argument used by Spuffies! 😉

 

[Tranquillity]

I don't mind the attempted rape being bought into the debate. The bathroom scene happened. it was ugly and horrible and you know what, Buffy and Spike dealt with it. He went and got a soul so that he wouldn't be the kind of man who would do that sort of thing and She forgave him. She believed in him AFTER the event. Buffy and Spike's story doesn't stop with Seeing Red just like Angel and Buffy's story doesn't stop with the "Are you still my Girl? Always" quote. The show moved on from both moments and you really have to look at the whole story from beguinning to end including season seven if you want to give an accurate account of how her relationships stood/stand.

I would hate to be beholden/trapped by the stupid things I said as a sixteen or seventeen year old; Just because Buffy said then that she'd be Angel's girl 'forever' doesn't automatically make it so.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

And ok he tried to rape her, he didn't. But if she was an ordinary girl you think she could stop him?

But Buffy's not a normal girl, and Spike's not a normal guy. 🙂 It's a fantasy realm; The rules are different.

Also, it's really quite unfair to hold Spike responsible for his actions when he didn't have a soul. I'm quite sure that you don't hold Angel responsible for his actions as Anglus, because soulless Angel stalked Buffy, tried to kill her friends, almost killed her, and pretty destroyed her life, and almost demolished the world. Besides, the attempted rape wasn't really that different from when Buffy beat Spike to a bloody pulp in Dead Things. It was a very destructive relationship, from both sides. And I have to say, Buffy DID initiate it. It's just that since Buffy's a girl it's much easier to overlook her actions, but since Spike's a guy he's obviously in the wrong... (sarcasm 🙂 )

And he got that soul for him. To proove himself he can be a better man. I can't belive she had something special with Spike, because I don't see it. I don't see love, everytime when you say Spuffy I think about how bad he made her feel. I don't see anything pretty and I'm not going to say I do, because I don't. For me that part of Buffy's life is a blank page.

I thought it was pretty evident in S7. Like, say Touched for example, he gave her the energy and determination she needed to defeat Caleb, someone who had whooped her butt before. In fact, right afterwards she said "Do you see this? This may actually help me fight my war.This might be the key to everything. And the reason I'm holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that you gave me last night." Joss himself that the Spuffy relationship had evolved into a romantic and trusting relationship. His exact words in the Chosen commentary were "it shows that their relationship had enough trust in it that it was physical and romantic, but not sexual." Jane Espenson said, I quote, "If someone is there for you, is asking nothing of you and has loved you faithfully and unconditionally for all those years, and if that person is the one that you turn to for comfort and support when you are at your most vulnerable, and if they give you that comfort and support unconditionally asking nothing in return, then whether you acknowledge it or not, that is love, so yes, Buffy loved Spike." In S7 (and earlier) Buffy and Spike really became a team. In fact, since S5 I barely saw them fighting without the other! 🙂 Anyway, I certainly see the love and passion there. In fact, I'm quite glad they don't act like mom and dad, reading the newspaper together or something all old- coupley like that. But if you don't, that's fine too. I don't see the love in Bangel after all. 😀

 

[thevikingsgirl]

But if you don't, that's fine too. I don't see the love in Bangel after all. 😀

I thought Buffy seemed like a silly girl with a crush with Angel. I liked Angel with Darla, actually, oddly enough! Angel seemed WAY too old for Buffy, in a maturity sense, when they were together.

 

[Eleftheria]

The last episode scene with the cookies and stuff wasn't that satisfying to me but at least it gave us hope about bangel.Buffy has said before(season 2 "bad eggs" ) that she doesn't want to think about the future...which is reasonable.She is aware of the dangers she faces so she might die tomorrow. Her future is uncertain. BUT whenever she thinks about the future...there is always a certain person there...ANGEL. ("bad eggs" and "chosen")

I have to agree with Princess Buffy about Buffy not being herself in seasons 6 and 7. And as I said before...what the Scoobies did in Bargaining was the worst thing a person can do. Disturbing someone's peace.Yes that has consequences...for all.

I saw Buffy with Angel in IWRY and if they were given the chance to be together(without the curse being there) that is happiness. Did you see the passion they had? They love each other, they are soulmates and in my heart if angel became human or they found a way to make his soul remain permanently there Buffy would be with him. I don't see self hatred there or guilt. They know they love each other and although their relationship doesn't seem normal or logical( vampire and a slayer) they know that what they do is right. and everyone else around them knows it as well.

And I also could see that Angel gave her space. And he had the courage to leave her grow up in season 3. Spike kept stressing her. And there is one thing that will always bug me. Spike loves Buffy and Buffy should be with Spike...yeah...then why didn't Spike call Buffy when he returned in season 5? Because he knows whom Buffy really loves and he knows that it's better Buffy to remember him lovingly as a hero. He knows deep down there is no future between them. But that is just the way I see it.

And if Bangel just friends...why can't they hold their hands off each other??? whenever I see them together all Buffy wants is to kiss Angel 🙂 When I see them meet...the look on their faces...I can't say any more.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I don't believe in soul mates 🙂

 

[Kean]

I absolutely love it when Angel looks back over his shoulder and says the last line. He has a little bit of the sexy cockiness he had in the first season of BtVS.

That's why I really love this scene, that last shot was a mirroring of the end of the alley scene in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

The last episode scene with the cookies and stuff wasn't that satisfying to me but at least it gave us hope about bangel.Buffy has said before(season 2 "bad eggs" ) that she doesn't want to think about the future...which is reasonable.She is aware of the dangers she faces so she might die tomorrow. Her future is uncertain. BUT whenever she thinks about the future...there is always a certain person there...ANGEL. ("bad eggs" and "chosen")

You know, this is why I think people see their relathionship like imature - because of that words. Everybody are thinking about their future. You can't help it, even you say you don't, you find yourself when you're alone thinking about it. It doesn't matter if you are 16, 25 od 40 - you have problem that will effect on your life in the future. And she is saying like she doesn't have a future - like she is just a slayer and she will be killing vampires till the day she dies and in the meantime she is going to cuddle with Angel. And I think that is why some see it like imature high school relathionship, but I belive she was thinking about it, just she never wanted to admit it to herself, because she thought her future is blank page.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Oh dear. Another Angel vs. Spike thread about who is best for Buffy. Another Bangel vs. Spuffy thread. And I thought the fans had finally gotten over this crap.

Spike tried to rape Buffy? Guess what? Buffy tried to rape Spike in "Gone". And guess what again? Angel had succeeded in making Buffy a victim of psychic rape on his show . . . and she doesn't even know about it. Willow had committed psychic rape against Tara at least twice, yet fans continue to romanticize their relationship long after Tara's death.

Buffy's relationships with both vampires were messy. That I cannot deny. Which is pretty normal, as relationships go. That's because love is messy. Am I trying to say that Buffy might be in love with both vampires? I don't know. It seems to be what Whedon has been hinting. But I could be wrong. I cannot help but wonder if the Bangel worshippers and the Spuffy worshippers refuse to consider this possibility.


You want to know how I viewed the "cookie dough" scene? I see it as Buffy realizing that she has yet to become fully realized as an individual. She does not believe she is ready for a relationship with Angel, Spike or any other possible partner. That's how I see it.

 

[Flannen]

Oh dear. Another Angel vs. Spike thread about who is best for Buffy. Another Bangel vs. Spuffy thread. And I thought the fans had finally gotten over this crap.

'fraid not. It seems even you aren't either if you've taken the time to come to a conclusion about the cookie dough speech too! 😉😛

Don't hate on 'ship wars. They're a huge part to keeping the fandom alive and a lot of us like to discuss them. I'll be very sad the day I finally get over 'this crap' I can tell you that! 😛

 

[LadyLavinia]

Don't hate on 'ship wars. They're a huge part to keeping the fandom alive and a lot of us like to discuss them. I'll be very sad the day I finally get over 'this crap' I can tell you that!

There are so many topics in Buffyverse to consider and only the 'ship wars can keep the fandom alive? Now that is sad.

 

[Flannen]

There are so many topics in Buffyverse to consider and only the 'ship wars can keep the fandom alive? Now that is sad.

I didn't say it was the only thing, I said it was a huge part of it. You don't have to get involved with them if you think they're sad! 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but just like F. I think 'ships are huge part of this tv show and Buffy's boys are huge part of her life and most of them - long term guys or one night stands - are responsible for growth of her character.

 

[GrrArghx]

I'm sorry but 'immature high school love'? I couldn't see half of the MATURE adults in this world drive a sword through their lover's chest. True, real unconditional love is selfless, and after being around alot of people 'in love', I don't know many who aren't selfish. That's why I ship Bangel and that's why I do NOT believe that their love was "puppy love". Puppy love is selfish and stupid, and they both made decisions that were totally and completely selfless.

I'm 17 years old, and I've noticed alot of older people don't think teenagers can be in love. I beg to differ.

 

[white avenger]

BUFFY - Because"”OK, I'm cookie dough. I'm not done
baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna
turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat"”or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.
ANGEL - Any thoughts on who might enjoy"” Do I have
to go with the cookie analogy?
BUFFY - I'm not really thinking that far ahead. That's kind of the point.
ANGEL - I'll go start working on the second front. Make sure I don't have to use it.
BUFFY - Angel. I do... sometimes think that far ahead.
ANGEL - Sometimes is something.
BUFFY - Be a long time coming. Years, if ever.
ANGEL - I ain't getting any older.

It just occurred to me that, in no place whatsoever in this conversation does Buffy in any way even HINT that those metaphorical cookies will be specifically for Angel, or anyone else, for that matter. All she says it that, at some time in the not so near future, she believes that, assuming that she lives that long, she will be both ready and able to walk away from the battle line and have a relatively normal non-slaying life.

Maybe with Angel, maybe with Spike, or maybe with someone else, who neither she nor we have any knowledge of at the moment.

Angel might THINK that she was referring to him, and it might, eventually, work out exactly that way, but as far as any definite statement is concerned, it simply wasn't there. By the time that the final credits have run, the only definite things that we have learned from Buffy on this matter are that she will always be Angel's girl, and she loves Spike.

In other words, friends and neighbors, the fat lady ain't even stepped up to the microphone yet, let alone stopped singing.

 

[Flannen]

She doesn't specify who'll get the cookies, I don't think that is what has been suggested. But she does say that sometimes she thinks that far ahead, which is directed at Angel and she says it could be years, if ever. It's true that she doesn't outright specify but she isn't ruling it out either.

 

[white avenger]

Certainly Buffy said it to Angel. He was the only other person there since Caleb had to split. But I think that Angel was making a lot more out of the simple fact that she sometimes thinks about a time when she could hang up Mr Pointy and pass the Scythe on to someone else than was actually there. I'm not saying that he's either right or wrong. This isn't any kind of 'ship statement. All that I am saying is that Angel didn't get nearly as much assurance there as he thought that he did. It's understandable, after that "always your girl" statement, but it just didn't happen.

 

[Kean]

If she didn't mean for Angel to be waiting for the cookies then why would she stop him again and tell him that sometimes she does think of a Happily Ever After? If she didn't mean for Angel to believe that she still thinks of him in her future (which he clearly does-his little outburst in Rome "I'm supposed to be waiting for cookies") then she would have just let him walk away. Their conversation was over, he was off to set up a second front and it would have all been nice and tidy and laid to rest. But she did stop him and she did tell him that she thinks of a future and it is one with him.

Maybe that is all they will ever get. That big honking if but it stands as a clear indication of what Buffy wants..if she could ever have the luxury of actually attending to her wants rather than the needs of the world.

 

[white avenger]

If she didn't mean for Angel to be waiting for the cookies then why would she stop him again and tell him that sometimes she does think of a Happily Ever After? If she didn't mean for Angel to believe that she still thinks of him in her future (which he clearly does-his little outburst in Rome "I'm supposed to be waiting for cookies") then she would have just let him walk away. Their conversation was over, he was off to set up a second front and it would have all been nice and tidy and laid to rest. But she did stop him and she did tell him that she thinks of a future and it is one with him.

Maybe that is all they will ever get. That big honking if but it stands as a clear indication of what Buffy wants..if she could ever have the luxury of actually attending to her wants rather than the needs of the world.

I still say that Buffy's statement was in no way any sort of assurance or guarantee that Angel was the one who will ultimately wind up with the metaphorical cookies. When she said that she did sometimes think that far ahead, she meant exactly that. She thinks about a time when the fighting, at least her part of it, is finished, when she can settle down and share a more or less normal life with someone who she loves and who loves her. Maybe that someone will actually be Angel. Then again, maybe it will be Spike. Or Satsu, or Xander, or Faith, or Willow, or someone who neither we nor she has met yet.

I never said that it definitely wouldn't be Angel, just that Buffy never said that it definitely WOULD be him. Right now, it's a crap shoot, and the ultimate winner might simply be the last one left standing after the last battle.