Cookie analogy- Bangel is back !

[Eleftheria]

I just finished Buffy. And Having watched End of Days/Chosen I can understand the following.


For the last episodes, after Empty Places Buffy has been extremely sad and disappointed and then Angel comes...and honestly,I see her face lit up,it reminded me of her old innocent look some years ago. She throws the scythe and she kisses him. And the world goes away.I like Angel telling her that he is "hers" awww!I wish he could stay to fight as well! "Chosen" SHOULD be 2-hour long.

And before my hope fades, she throws the cookie analogy. Yes Spike is in her heart for many reasons. But if she ever wanted to spend her life with someone, that would be Angel. That says a lot,doesn't it?: king :

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I agree. When she kissed Angel, the whole world goes away. Good and bad things doesn't exist. There are just two of them. That must be one powerful kiss 🙂

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I agree. When she kissed Angel, the whole world goes away. Good and bad things doesn't exist. There are just two of them. That must be one powerful kiss 🙂

But as discovered and explored in S3, sometimes love isn't enough to sustain a relationship. 🙂 And I feel that that is a very important and true message. Yes, Buffy loved Angel. Yes, Buffy will always love Angel. But loving him doesn't mean that she has to be with him, or even that she should be with him. Their inability to "Make it work" in the past shows that despite their love they're just not a functional couple, and it's unlikely that they'll be able to work it out in the future.

You know, there's a quote about love (ALL love, not just romantic love. 🙂 ) that I really enjoy and I've found to be quite true: "Either you love somebody forever or you never loved them in the first place." So yeah, Buffy and Angel will always love each other, as will Buffy and Spike. But they're moving on in their lives, and they're making it work with other people. And really, why shouldn't they? They're all doing a LOT better now in their separate groups: Spike with Illyria and Spider, Angel when he was with Cordelia, and Buffy with the SG in present time. 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

But as discovered and explored in S3, sometimes love isn't enough to sustain a relationship. 🙂 And I feel that that is a very important and true message. Yes, Buffy loved Angel. Yes, Buffy will always love Angel. But loving him doesn't mean that she has to be with him, or even that she should be with him. Their inability to "Make it work" in the past shows that despite their love they're just not a functional couple, and it's unlikely that they'll be able to work it out in the future.

You know, there's a quote about love (ALL love, not just romantic love. 🙂 ) that I really enjoy and I've found to be quite true: "Either you love somebody forever or you never loved them in the first place." So yeah, Buffy and Angel will always love each other, as will Buffy and Spike. But they're moving on in their lives, and they're making it work with other people. And really, why shouldn't they? They're all doing a LOT better now in their separate groups: Spike with Illyria and Spider, Angel when he was with Cordelia, and Buffy with the SG in present time. 🙂

If love doesn't mean she should be with him, what does it mean? Then it just exists. With no purpose. Being without person you love is pain, is Buffy's destiny to suffer? Or Angels?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I still say that Buffy's statement was in no way any sort of assurance or guarantee that Angel was the one who will ultimately wind up with the metaphorical cookies. When she said that she did sometimes think that far ahead, she meant exactly that. She thinks about a time when the fighting, at least her part of it, is finished, when she can settle down and share a more or less normal life with someone who she loves and who loves her. Maybe that someone will actually be Angel. Then again, maybe it will be Spike. Or Satsu, or Xander, or Faith, or Willow, or someone who neither we nor she has met yet.

I never said that it definitely wouldn't be Angel, just that Buffy never said that it definitely WOULD be him. Right now, it's a crap shoot, and the ultimate winner might simply be the last one left standing after the last battle.

I'll use the same logic to say that Buffy's I love you at the end of chosen, wasn't actually directed at Spike.

 

[InsaneMystic]

If love doesn't mean she should be with him, what does it mean? Then it just exists. With no purpose. Being without person you love is pain, is Buffy's destiny to suffer? Or Angels?

Love is its own purpose, it needs no other end than itself. 🙂 And the real test of love is not if you can be with the one you love, but if you love them enough to let them go - because anything that reduces freedom is not love.

I certainly don't agree to the "being without the person you love is pain" bit - that's true of romantic crushes, not of love.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

If love doesn't mean she should be with him, what does it mean? Then it just exists. With no purpose. Being without person you love is pain, is Buffy's destiny to suffer? Or Angels?

The purpose is to be able to look back at what's past and learn from it. 🙂 You don't have to be with someone just because you love them. For example: Willow and Tara. Tara's quote from, was it Wrecked?: "But you still love her." -Dawn "Very much. But... Sometimes, other things get in the way."

Also, Buffy loving someone before doesn't mean that she can't love anyone in the future. As said by the First Slayer, Buffy is "Full of love". She's fine without Angel; In fact, she's better off without him. She's not going to suffer with Angel, she's more than that. Same with Angel.

Like... Another example, because examples always seem to work. The Bachelor Party, Angel S1. Doyle and Harry used to be married. The "Crazy in love" and "Can't live without" the other kind of marriage. But their love (First love) wasn't enough to sustain the relationship. They couldn't get along, they fought (remind you of anyone? 😉 ), she didn't like how he treated her like a child, they changed, and they had to split up. Four years later, they were doing just fine. As Harry said, "Times change." 🙂

Do you believe in destiny? Soulmates? I definitely don't, and I think that that's where we're differing. Like, I believe that some people have personalities that are more compatible than others. But there are MANY people who could click with your personality out there, not just one. Limiting yourself to just one person (Especially at a young age) forever seems a bit silly to me. :smile3:

 

[white avenger]

I'll use the same logic to say that Buffy's I love you at the end of chosen, wasn't actually directed at Spike.

I would agree wholeheartedly if Buffy had said, "I do sometimes think of loving someone," but she didn't. She said I love you," while facing the only other person in the entire hellmouth at that moment. By the same token, she didn't tell Angel, "I do sometimes think that far ahead, and when I do, I think of you and me together." All she said was, "I do sometimes think that far ahead."

I have said it already several times here, but I will say it once more. Buffy very well might wind up being Mrs Liam Hanrahan someday. In fact the deck is pretty well stacked in Angel's favor, given Joss' statements on on the matter. But in the meantime, I'm gonna root for Spike. (And my plan B is, IF the day ever comes when the Eternal Discussion is settled, once and for all, and the Forehead wins out, I'm gonna switch my support to Spaith, with Illyria stopping by for weekend visits. And she's gonna bring Spider and the Spikettes along just in case things get boring. Which they won't)

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

The purpose is to be able to look back at what's past and learn from it. 🙂 You don't have to be with someone just because you love them. For example: Willow and Tara. Tara's quote from, was it Wrecked?: "But you still love her." -Dawn "Very much. But... Sometimes, other things get in the way."

Also, Buffy loving someone before doesn't mean that she can't love anyone in the future. As said by the First Slayer, Buffy is "Full of love". She's fine without Angel; In fact, she's better off without him. She's not going to suffer with Angel, she's more than that. Same with Angel.

Like... Another example, because examples always seem to work. The Bachelor Party, Angel S1. Doyle and Harry used to be married. The "Crazy in love" and "Can't live without" the other kind of marriage. But their love (First love) wasn't enough to sustain the relationship. They couldn't get along, they fought (remind you of anyone? 😉 ), she didn't like how he treated her like a child, they changed, and they had to split up. Four years later, they were doing just fine. As Harry said, "Times change." 🙂

Do you believe in destiny? Soulmates? I definitely don't, and I think that that's where we're differing. Like, I believe that some people have personalities that are more compatible than others. But there are MANY people who could click with your personality out there, not just one. Limiting yourself to just one person (Especially at a young age) forever seems a bit silly to me. :smile3:

You don't make sense to me. We have totally different views on what love is. Sure, you don't have to be with someone because you love them. But when you love them, you want to be with them. Maybe you can' be, but you want. When Tara said to Willow that it's over, she didn't wanted to, she had to. But when things fall apart, they eventually get together. When someone breaks your heart, someone other has to glue it together, or you have to do it alone. When you love someone, you want to be with that person, give him or her every minute of your time. Other things that get in your way doesn't make your wishes different, they just make the situation different.

I never said Buffy couldn't love anyone else. I don't know, none of us do, who will show in her life tommorrow or 2 years since now. I don't say she has to be with Angel. As their fan I would like to see that. I belive that he makes her happy, and that goes the other way around, but maybe things I belive in are wrong. But I don't stop loving them.

I don't know what I belive in. I belive in love, and that every person is capable to love in their own way. Destiny or soulmates, I think that's just something they write for song lyrics and put in the end of books, and I go aww at it, but I don't know if I belive in it. But I belive that everyone can find love, just we have to see the thins that are most important. We have to see beyond the clothes, looks and make up. I don't know and I don't think I'll ever understand how you see love, but we all have different view on it. And it's more fun that way.

 

[Flannen]

Love is its own purpose, it needs no other end than itself. 🙂 And the real test of love is not if you can be with the one you love, but if you love them enough to let them go - because anything that reduces freedom is not love.

I certainly don't agree to the "being without the person you love is pain" bit - that's true of romantic crushes, not of love.

Personally, I think this perspective belittles love. Letting someone go may be the test of real love, but there will be the pain that PB speaks of. To think that there wouldn't be is to underestimate love completely.

Do you believe in destiny? Soulmates? I definitely don't, and I think that that's where we're differing. Like, I believe that some people have personalities that are more compatible than others. But there are MANY people who could click with your personality out there, not just one. Limiting yourself to just one person (Especially at a young age) forever seems a bit silly to me. :smile3:

There may well be many people who you click with, that's just as likely as there being only person who does.

It may seem silly to you now, but if and when you meet that person I sincerely hope that you don't find your own feelings silly. It seems like you're pushing something away before you've embraced it. I've 'limited' myself, as you like to term it, to one person since I was sixteen years old and with that came an awful lot of emotions and feelings but 'silly' was and is never one of them.

All this just strengthens my view that we look at these relationships in terms of our own ideals and that is a huge reason as to why we will never change our minds. I cannot and will not ever belittle the Bangel relationship because she was young and it was the first person she fell in love with because then I would be belittling myself. And I'm sure there's plenty of Spuffy/Cangel/Tillow fans who feel the same. 🙂

 

[thevikingsgirl]

To me the need to be with someone you love every minute is a sign of immaturity. I certainly love my husband of 9 years and if he has to take a trip for work or something, I miss him. But I'm not pining while he's at work for the day, and if he were to take the kids someplace for the day I'd embrace my hours of solitude. When I was younger I had that I-need-to-be-with-someone feeling, but as we grow up we find we can love someone and not spend every second with them or even want to. That doesn't mean you don't love them.

I'm more in line with insane mystic on the love stuff. I don't romanticize love any more than I do anger or happiness or any other emotion. For me to think that there is one ideal person for each of us is depressing. I prefer to think that we can love, but we can move on if we need to and find someone else.

Anyway...back to cookie dough...I felt like Buffy was letting him down easy, feeling like taking away all his hope was too mean. So she gave him this silly and vague analogy that never mentioned him at all, then told him to go away, went home and cuddled with Spike. 😛

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

To me the need to be with someone you love every minute is a sign of immaturity. I certainly love my husband of 9 years and if he has to take a trip for work or something, I miss him. But I'm not pining while he's at work for the day, and if he were to take the kids someplace for the day I'd embrace my hours of solitude. When I was younger I had that I-need-to-be-with-someone feeling, but as we grow up we find we can love someone and not spend every second with them or even want to. That doesn't mean you don't love them.

I'm more in line with insane mystic on the love stuff. I don't romanticize love any more than I do anger or happiness or any other emotion. For me to think that there is one ideal person for each of us is depressing. I prefer to think that we can love, but we can move on if we need to and find someone else.

Anyway...back to cookie dough...I felt like Buffy was letting him down easy, feeling like taking away all his hope was too mean. So she gave him this silly and vague analogy that never mentioned him at all, then told him to go away, went home and cuddled with Spike. 😛

You can't define love like that. It depends on a person. If someone likes to feeling of having the other person around all the time, you can't change that. And you can't judge that. We are different people and have different ways of living.

And about the last part, you are totally and completly wrong, but then again you are a Spuffy, you see it in that way, but don't kill the beauty of that episode for us.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I wouldn't have posted if we were in the Bangel section, but we're just in the season 7 section so I can give my anti-Bangel interpretation. I don't see why my interpretation would ruin anything for you, unless you think i'm right 😉

 

[Wishing Oceans]

You can't define love like that. It depends on a person. If someone likes to feeling of having the other person around all the time, you can't change that. And you can't judge that. We are different people and have different ways of living.

And about the last part, you are totally and completly wrong, but then again you are a Spuffy, you see it in that way, but don't kill the beauty of that episode for us.

Apparently she can and will... Because she just did. :biggrin3:

There may well be many people who you click with, that's just as likely as there being only person who does.

It may seem silly to you now, but if and when you meet that person I sincerely hope that you don't find your own feelings silly. It seems like you're pushing something away before you've embraced it. I've 'limited' myself, as you like to term it, to one person since I was sixteen years old and with that came an awful lot of emotions and feelings but 'silly' was and is never one of them.

All this just strengthens my view that we look at these relationships in terms of our own ideals and that is a huge reason as to why we will never change our minds. I cannot and will not ever belittle the Bangel relationship because she was young and it was the first person she fell in love with because then I would be belittling myself. And I'm sure there's plenty of Spuffy/Cangel/Tillow fans who feel the same.

I plan to savor being young and not rush into any drama. I'm quite happy with just being with my friends, and I don't foresee any relationship for a long, long while. 😀

The thing about young love is that when you're young you have a certain set of beliefs and priorities. But as you get older, those views change, and often times you and your partner just aren't the same people that you fell in love with.

You don't make sense to me. We have totally different views on what love is. Sure, you don't have to be with someone because you love them. But when you love them, you want to be with them. Maybe you can' be, but you want. When Tara said to Willow that it's over, she didn't wanted to, she had to. But when things fall apart, they eventually get together. When someone breaks your heart, someone other has to glue it together, or you have to do it alone. When you love someone, you want to be with that person, give him or her every minute of your time. Other things that get in your way doesn't make your wishes different, they just make the situation different.

You will want to be with them, but you don't have to be with them. And you can move on and get over that person. 😀

I never said Buffy couldn't love anyone else. I don't know, none of us do, who will show in her life tommorrow or 2 years since now. I don't say she has to be with Angel. As their fan I would like to see that. I belive that he makes her happy, and that goes the other way around, but maybe things I belive in are wrong. But I don't stop loving them.

Well, beliefs can't really be "Wrong", that's why they're called beliefs and not facts. :biggrin3: As a spuffy fan though, I can honestly say that I don't want Spike and Buffy to end up together. And yet I still enjoy watching them and their amazing journey. 🙂

I don't know what I belive in. I belive in love, and that every person is capable to love in their own way. Destiny or soulmates, I think that's just something they write for song lyrics and put in the end of books, and I go aww at it, but I don't know if I belive in it. But I belive that everyone can find love, just we have to see the thins that are most important. We have to see beyond the clothes, looks and make up. I don't know and I don't think I'll ever understand how you see love, but we all have different view on it. And it's more fun that way.

I've always been more into friendship love than romantic love... Extra points if it's both, though, like Sam/Freddie from iCarly (I LOVE that couple so much...) or Ron/Hermione from Harry Potter. 😀 I kinda have this gut instinct of "No! Icky!" (Yeah... I'm really not one of those lovesick middle schoolers) 😉 but I'm attempting to overcome that... But yeah, I'm not a romance person. I've always enjoyed love that's fun and amusing more than anything else. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

To me the need to be with someone you love every minute is a sign of immaturity. I certainly love my husband of 9 years and if he has to take a trip for work or something, I miss him. But I'm not pining while he's at work for the day, and if he were to take the kids someplace for the day I'd embrace my hours of solitude. When I was younger I had that I-need-to-be-with-someone feeling, but as we grow up we find we can love someone and not spend every second with them or even want to. That doesn't mean you don't love them.

I'm more in line with insane mystic on the love stuff. I don't romanticize love any more than I do anger or happiness or any other emotion. For me to think that there is one ideal person for each of us is depressing. I prefer to think that we can love, but we can move on if we need to and find someone else.

I'm not sure immaturity is the right word, but I would say that it certainly shows insecurities. This is what gets me when people come down on people being in love when they're young. A relationship is a relationship and just because someone is young doesn't mean that they pine after their partner every minute of everyday. That's not young love, that's insecure love.

I plan to savor being young and not rush into any drama. I'm quite happy with just being with my friends, and I don't foresee any relationship for a long, long while. 😀

The thing about young love is that when you're young you have a certain set of beliefs and priorities. But as you get older, those views change, and often times you and your partner just aren't the same people that you fell in love with.

Great, good for you. But not everyone is like you, and not everyone is going to pass up experiencing love just because they've decided they don't want to have a relationship at a young age. You can get a great deal where you can be in a relationship and hang out with your friends because your life doesn't have to be separate.

As for the second part, I can wholeheartedly, from my own personal experience (so not speaking for everyone here at all) can say you're wrong. You're right you do change as you get older and the way you see things changes but that doesn't mean you and you're partner don't become the same people. It means you've helped people become the people that you are now.

Buffy's cookie dough analogy demonstrates that her and Angel have matured, experienced different things and most definitely helped each other become better people and that makes Angel more than just her first love and proves they have the ability to become something so much more than they were before.

But I feel more like I'm defending myself as opposed to Bangel now, lol. So I may bow out of this one respectfully.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I'm not sure immaturity is the right word, but I would say that it certainly shows insecurities. This is what gets me when people come down on people being in love when they're young. A relationship is a relationship and just because someone is young doesn't mean that they pine after their partner every minute of everyday. That's not young love, that's insecure love.

I agree. 🙂

Great, good for you. But not everyone is like you, and not everyone is going to pass up experiencing love just because they've decided they don't want to have a relationship at a young age. You can get a great deal where you can be in a relationship and hang out with your friends because your life doesn't have to be separate.

Everyone's different I suppose. 😀

As for the second part, I can wholeheartedly, from my own personal experience (so not speaking for everyone here at all) can say you're wrong. You're right you do change as you get older and the way you see things changes but that doesn't mean you and you're partner don't become the same people. It means you've helped people become the people that you are now.

Well, I hope that you don't become the same person! That would be pretty weird, lol. And I'm not exactly sure what you mean, would you explain that "Same person" thing? 🙂 And yes, in some cases your partner can help you (and vice-versa) grow as people, and you'll grow together (Is that what you meant?). But certainly not in every case, and probably not even in the majority. But you're very fortunate if it happened to you. 🙂

Buffy's cookie dough analogy demonstrates that her and Angel have matured, experienced different things and most definitely helped each other become better people and that makes Angel more than just her first love and proves they have the ability to become something so much more than they were before.

It certainly does. But a lot of other people helped Buffy become a better person, too: Spike, her mother, the SG, her own experiences, etc. And so while you will always be grateful for those people and look back at them with a smile, it really doesn't suggest that anything huge will happen...

But I feel more like I'm defending myself as opposed to Bangel now, lol. So I may bow out of this one respectfully.

Oh, but debating is so fun! 😀 And, I know, I often get that feeling that people are judging me and commenting more on me then the actual argument, but I try not to take it personally. After all, at the end of the day (As G/MrWhite said), we're really all just strangers talking on the internet. :biggrin3:

 

[Flannen]

I agree. 🙂 Well, I hope that you don't become the same person! That would be pretty weird, lol. And I'm not exactly sure what you mean, would you explain that "Same person" thing? 🙂 And yes, in some cases your partner can help you (and vice-versa) grow as people, and you'll grow together (Is that what you meant?). But certainly not in every case, and probably not even in the majority. But you're very fortunate if it happened to you. 🙂

lol, sorry this is what comes of not re-reading posts. And re-reading it back now I've confused myself so much I don't know what I was getting at, lol.

I think what I was trying to say is that yes, you can grow together but you don't ultimately become different people. (I think I might have meant initially, you can remain the 'same' enough to still be the people you fell in love with!) And even if you're not necessarily the same people, it is possible to still be in love with that person. Maybe even more so because you've made them 'better'. And I agree, I am extremely fortunate and it also makes me feel the need to show it is possible and its possible for everyone, I guess.

And yeah there were definitely others but, again because of my own experiences, the changes Angel made in Buffy's life and the things he helped her to experience are and remain a huge thing. 🙂

 

[Stakesteak]

Angel and Buffy were each others' first love and I think the old saying of "you're never completely over you first love" holds very true for them both. A part of each of them will always love the other. That being said, people still move on. That was a huge theme throughout both series'; Buffy fell in love with Riley and then Spike, while Angel fell for Cordelia and definitely had strong feelings for the werewolf girl in S5 and who knows where that would've gone had he not gotten the vision of the Black Thorn.

There is no all-encompassing one true love who is a person's perfect compliment and who they're fated to be with for the rest of their life. That hollywood ideology is precisely the reason that the U.S. and many other modern countries have such frightenly high divorce rates; people keep looking for something that just isn't there. Two people may be in love but as they grow they each move in their own directions and maintaining a relationship is much more about mutual respect and compromise than some notion of a fiery pasion in the depths of their soul. One thing I always liked about BtVS is that the show demonstrated time and time again that a person can fall in love with someone and then move on as they continue to grow.

Buffy was madly in love with Angel throughout seasons 2 and 3 (and arguably 4), but there were far too many problems in the way of their maintaining that relationship so they both had to move on. By the end of season 7 Buffy fell deeply in love with Spike but since being separated they've both had to learn to move on. Life's a bumpy road and Buffy may well end up with Spike, Angel, or some other bloke who comes into her life down the road.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Angel and Buffy were each others' first love and I think the old saying of "you're never completely over you first love" holds very true for them both. A part of each of them will always love the other. That being said, people still move on. That was a huge theme throughout both series'; Buffy fell in love with Riley and then Spike, while Angel fell for Cordelia and definitely had strong feelings for the werewolf girl in S5 and who knows where that would've gone had he not gotten the vision of the Black Thorn.

There is no all-encompassing one true love who is a person's perfect compliment and who they're fated to be with for the rest of their life. That hollywood ideology is precisely the reason that the U.S. and many other modern countries have such frightenly high divorce rates; people keep looking for something that just isn't there. Two people may be in love but as they grow they each move in their own directions and maintaining a relationship is much more about mutual respect and compromise than some notion of a fiery pasion in the depths of their soul. One thing I always liked about BtVS is that the show demonstrated time and time again that a person can fall in love with someone and then move on as they continue to grow.

Buffy was madly in love with Angel throughout seasons 2 and 3 (and arguably 4), but there were far too many problems in the way of their maintaining that relationship so they both had to move on. By the end of season 7 Buffy fell deeply in love with Spike but since being separated they've both had to learn to move on. Life's a bumpy road and Buffy may well end up with Spike, Angel, or some other bloke who comes into her life down the road.

This, 100 times this.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

You will want to be with them, but you don't have to be with them. And you can move on and get over that person. 😀

Sure you don't have to. Want and have are two different words with different meanings. But how can you even make sense to yourself. When you love someone you want to be with them. You want, not have too. Wishes are stronger then our obligations.
You can move on, but when you move on, that doors are closed. You don't have to stop loving some person, you just learn ti live without them. But if you move on, that love is over. I mean, any chance for some romance.