Cordy's growth

[kittenpoker]

Ok, I know there is much debate about which character grew/changed the most - but I just watched "Birthday" (angel, season 3) and I feel compelled to make a case for cordy.

first of all, she goes from her story about hitting a girl with a car and being insulted that said girl only cared about her hurt leg - and not about cordy's pain - at having hit someone (buffy, s1) - even in buffy s3 in earshot - "we are so unsung" to this ep where she not only does not seek sympathy, she actively avoids it! she goes through a year of pain, we see, and she doesn't tell anyone. MRI's heavy duty pain meds.... and she keeps fighting to keep the visions...

when she astral projects from her body, her main focus is constantly on the girl in her vision. everytime anyone expresses concern for her, she responds with a reminder of the girl from her vision (even though they can't hear)

When Skip comes with the ultimate offer - "the life you've always wanted" her immediate response is, "No Angel?"

And even when in the midst of that alternate universe, perfect life, something nags at her.... so much that she puts everything aside to go back the the hotel....

when she sees how tortured angel is, she doesn't hesitate but to take the visions back

Even Skip's warning of it being INCREDIBLY painful, and she may never be able to be fully human again - her answer, "so, demonize me!"

In the end, Skip asks her why she is choosing the harder life (to have the visions, and become part demon, rather than the easy life - a celebrity), she says, "It wasn't me."

I think, that's the thing.... It *was* her..... And it's not anymore.

That, my friends, is real change. Real growth.

 

[brinkster130]

Yup, I totally agree. I think that Cordy truly did change for the better as she got older and more involved in Angel's mission. I'd even say that she began fighting the mission for herself rather than her doing it just to have a job and belong somewhere.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Yep, I think out of all of them, Cordy "grew up" the most.

 

[Robb Stark]

Completely agree. By "You're Welcome" she's one of my characters, and this is a big reason why.

 

[Aimee]

Cordy definitely grew up, I won't deny that for a second, but Wesley's changes were much, much more than growing up.
Wes started out as an insecure, cowardly fool who wouldn't know how or want to fight. By season 3 of AtS he was confident, brave leader. In season 4 he didn't seem to care about anything (except Fred) anymore. Then in season 5 he was internally tortured & self destructive!
Season 5 of AtS Wes is completely unrecognisable from Season 3 of BtVS Wes. Cordy really just stopped being self-absorbed and realises the world is bigger than her which, arguably, happens to most of the bitchy girls in high school when they enter the world outside high school.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cordy, particularly season 2 of Angel Cordy (I found her a bit smug in season 3 of Angel) but I think Wes should win the title of most changed/developed.
Runners up would be Spike, Gun & Willow. I also think Tara changed a lot (for the better) in season 6.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I think Cordy and Wesley are the best progressed characters in the entire Buffy verse.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

I completely agree about Cordy's growth but the one thing that I think never changed was her indifference to Buffy. She never hero-worshiped Buffy when she was on that show and although they never talked about it much on Angel, I still don't think she cared for Buffy even after she "grew up" and became nicer.

 

[Xin Rong]

Cordy definitely grew up, I won't deny that for a second, but Wesley's changes were much, much more than growing up.
Wes started out as an insecure, cowardly fool who wouldn't know how or want to fight. By season 3 of AtS he was confident, brave leader. In season 4 he didn't seem to care about anything (except Fred) anymore. Then in season 5 he was internally tortured & self destructive!
Season 5 of AtS Wes is completely unrecognisable from Season 3 of BtVS Wes. Cordy really just stopped being self-absorbed and realises the world is bigger than her which, arguably, happens to most of the bitchy girls in high school when they enter the world outside high school.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cordy, particularly season 2 of Angel Cordy (I found her a bit smug in season 3 of Angel) but I think Wes should win the title of most changed/developed.
Runners up would be Spike, Gun & Willow. I also think Tara changed a lot (for the better) in season 6.

Wesley doesn't grow, if anything he does the opposite. Yes, he changes, a lot, mainly because he pretends to be something a lot, it's only in season 5 when he stops pretending, but that's not growth. He doesnt become a better person.

If we're discussing growth, not change, then it's definitely Cordy, she starts as selfish and self absorbed but becomes a near selfless fighter against evil.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I agree that Cordy changes very much during the course of both shows, but boy do I dislike 'Birthday' as an episode.

I makes out that even if Cordelia hadn't met Angel and gotten the visions she'd would've grown into a nice person anyway.
Really?
Anybody remember the 'work in progress that Cordelia was in that first Season- she was still shallow (just not as shallow as previously) and could still be really mean, thoughtless and materialistic.

I don't buy at all that she would've ended up as a nice, decent person just because she 'made it' in LA. We see her growth as a character through seasons 1 and 2 of 'Angel' and this episode completely undermines it.

One of my least favourite 'character-centric' episodes from either show. 🙁

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

Wesley doesn't grow, if anything he does the opposite. Yes, he changes, a lot, mainly because he pretends to be something a lot, it's only in season 5 when he stops pretending, but that's not growth. He doesnt become a better person.

If we're discussing growth, not change, then it's definitely Cordy, she starts as selfish and self absorbed but becomes a near selfless fighter against evil.

Wesley grows from prat-fall, cowardly butt-of-the-joke Watcher to the right hand of Angel Investigations and a pretty awesome badass in his own right.

That is growth. That is improvement. 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

Yeah, I agree that Cordy changes very much during the course of both shows, but boy do I dislike 'Birthday' as an episode.

I makes out that even if Cordelia hadn't met Angel and gotten the visions she'd would've grown into a nice person anyway.
Really?
Anybody remember the 'work in progress that Cordelia was in that first Season- she was still shallow (just not as shallow as previously) and could still be really mean, thoughtless and materialistic.

I don't buy at all that she would've ended up as a nice, decent person just because she 'made it' in LA. We see her growth as a character through seasons 1 and 2 of 'Angel' and this episode completely undermines it.

One of my least favourite 'character-centric' episodes from either show. 🙁

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------



Wesley grows from prat-fall, cowardly butt-of-the-joke Watcher to the right hand of Angel Investigations and a pretty awesome badass in his own right.

That is growth. That is improvement. 🙂

That's the point, Cordy in the alternate reality isn't Cordy in the alternate reality, she retains stuff from the reality that we know her in, so it makes perfect sense for her to exhibit similar growth in that episode.

Wesley doesn't grow, he just changes, he goes from a 'I'm the best watcher ever' to 'a rogue demon hunter' to 'the boss' to 'dark', it's only when Fred dies that he stops performing a role and expresses who he is, but it's not significant growth, it's just change, IMO. He's just different.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I think Wes grew. Let's just look at his initial cowardliness. He went from being easily scared and easily intimidated to courageous and willing to confront anything, even alone. You could call that mere change if you want, but I think most people would say that it's growth, especially in the context of what he does in the show.

It's the same thing for his initial lack of self-confidence, for his initial lack of experience, for a lot of things. The changes are growth because they represent development and improvements.

 

[Xin Rong]

On the basis of a Cordy/Wesley comparison. In season 3, of Buffy, Cordy is cheated on, impaled, and abandoned by both sets of her friends, but doesn't go dark, other than making a bad wish, she deals with it very well, which considering she's a teenage girl, and not a late 20s/early 30s person, is quite impressive, especially considering what she goes on to do.

 

[thetopher]

On the basis of a Cordy/Wesley comparison. In season 3, of Buffy, Cordy is cheated on, impaled, and abandoned by both sets of her friends, but doesn't go dark, other than making a bad wish, she deals with it very well, which considering she's a teenage girl, and not a late 20s/early 30s person, is quite impressive, especially considering what she goes on to do.

As I remember it Cordelia chooses not to stay close to Buffy and her friends, instead she lashes out at them (especially Buffy) out of spite.

That's character regression right there, Cordelia goes back to what's she's comfortable with. One of the few things I dislike about S3 is how round in a circle Cordelia's character goes through- its depressing

Plus, highschool is highschool, in the scheme of things only fools think it really matters what happens to you there, no need to go 'dark'. 🙂


What happens to Wesley is that everybody pretty much goes 'f*** you man', Angel, the man he admires more than anybody, Gunn his best friend, Cordelia doesn't even go and visit him- now that is harsh. 🙁

All that, plus a slashed throat/near death experience, easily trumps boyfriend kissing another girl and an unfortunate fall.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I have to agree with thetopher's observations.

 

[Xin Rong]

As I remember it Cordelia chooses not to stay close to Buffy and her friends, instead she lashes out at them (especially Buffy) out of spite.

That's character regression right there, Cordelia goes back to what's she's comfortable with. One of the few things I dislike about S3 is how round in a circle Cordelia's character goes through- its depressing

Plus, highschool is highschool, in the scheme of things only fools think it really matters what happens to you there, no need to go 'dark'. 🙂


What happens to Wesley is that everybody pretty much goes 'f*** you man', Angel, the man he admires more than anybody, Gunn his best friend, Cordelia doesn't even go and visit him- now that is harsh. 🙁

All that, plus a slashed throat/near death experience, easily trumps boyfriend kissing another girl and an unfortunate fall.

Cordelia has a near death experience, through no fault of her own. She is betrayed by the only person she seems to have any kind of relationship with, and both the scoobies and her own friends seem to just leave her to her own pain. No one visited her in hospital, they just waited for her to come back to school.


So Cordy gets a near death experience, and not 'just a boyfriend kissing another girl' experince.

She's alone, has been betrayed, nearly died and the worst she does is be mean, which she did as a highschool girl. Wesley is much older: just because Cordy was in high school does not diminish the significance of her pain, in fact, in my view, it shows that she was stronger than Wesley would ever be, when she was only 16-18.

Wesley did something massively wrong, and stupid, has a near death experience, which he facilitated, and then feels sorry for himself and pretends to be dark.

Cordy get's indifference, which is worse than hate, Wesley gets hate from Angel, but no one else. Everyone else puts their attention towards the person who had just lost a child, their quasi nephew, and consequently ignore the person who was responsibile for it. The person who had deemed them all unworthy of trust, and had assumed he knew best. How dare they

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I am not that convinced of Cordelia's "growth". She was a shallow teenager and would have continued that way if it wasn't for suddenly going from riches to rags. She did not willingly take on the visions that were transplanted by Doyle. But she does reject the possibility of being a TV star with a show named after her so that she could help someone, so that does show the beginnings of an altruistic sense, but there isn't much before that and not that much after that.

 

[thetopher]

Cordelia has a near death experience, through no fault of her own. She is betrayed by the only person she seems to have any kind of relationship with, and both the scoobies and her own friends seem to just leave her to her own pain. No one visited her in hospital, they just waited for her to come back to school.


So Cordy gets a near death experience, and not 'just a boyfriend kissing another girl' experince.

She's alone, has been betrayed, nearly died and the worst she does is be mean, which she did as a highschool girl. Wesley is much older: just because Cordy was in high school does not diminish the significance of her pain, in fact, in my view, it shows that she was stronger than Wesley would ever be, when she was only 16-18.

Wesley did something massively wrong, and stupid, has a near death experience, which he facilitated, and then feels sorry for himself and pretends to be dark.

Cordy get's indifference, which is worse than hate, Wesley gets hate from Angel, but no one else. Everyone else puts their attention towards the person who had just lost a child, their quasi nephew, and consequently ignore the person who was responsibile for it. The person who had deemed them all unworthy of trust, and had assumed he knew best. How dare they

Cordelia got into an accident, traumatic sure, but nowhere near as much as somebody trying to kill you.
And again Cordelia reverts and distances herself from her friends by choice- and it's fair to say that her and Willow were friends before hand, and her and Buffy had been getting closer. She deliberately throws all that away because its the easier option than say, forgiveness. 🙁
But instead she reverts to type, which isn't strong at all, but a psychological crutch- go back to being 'Cordy- queen bitch'. That is in no way character growth, its reverting to form. 🙂

Agreed, Wesley screwed up, no question.

But he recieves plenty of hate form Gunn, and anger from Fred, and what is Cody's reaction to his betrayal if not supreme indifference?

These two were friends since S1 and she doesn't even ask after him? Go see him?
Yeah, I understand that Angel is the priority, but nothing? That's real indifference, and also kind of harsh. Cordy never goes out to find Wesley's side of the story, why he did what he did.
In fact 'Cordy' doesn't actually speak to Wes again until S5 'You're Welocme' which is just sad.

And unlike Cordelia Wesley still cares enough about his former friends to help them time and again. In 'The Price' he saves Fred's life, in 'Deep Down' he saves Angel, he never stops researching into what happened to Cordelia and then gives the info to Angel when he comes around.
That isn't self-pity, that's resilient, being self-reliant. 🙂

Going back to simply mocking you're former friends, that's weakness imo.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

@thetopher,i agree with most of what you're saying,everything besides not liking Happy Birthday. Why don't you like it? I think its a great episode and one of the top reasons i love season 3.

 

[thetopher]

@thetopher,i agree with most of what you're saying,everything besides not liking Happy Birthday. Why don't you like it? I think its a great episode and one of the top reasons i love season 3.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. Cordelia having an out-of-body experience from one vision too many and then making a tough decision about which path to take, which Destiny to choose.

I just...don't like the other path at all.

For those of us who remember Cordelia of S1 and how she changed through her interactions which Angel and the cases they took on, how she grew to be fond of Doyle and then had to deal with the trauma of losing him, how she fought and adjusted with the visions and the pain/burden they caused her, its a little hard to see how 'Cordy the Hollywood superstar' ends up being so nice.

If its meant to be an 'alternate' Cordy then where did all that great character growth come from?

Think of alt. Buffy or Giles from 'The Wish'-verse and see how different they are from the original characters, and 'Birthday' just comes across as a really shallow exploration of Cordelia's character. 🙁

It's because I like Cordelia's character arc so much that I don't like 'Birthday', it doesn't show how much she changed over the course of the show.

 

[Xin Rong]

Cordelia got into an accident, traumatic sure, but nowhere near as much as somebody trying to kill you.
And again Cordelia reverts and distances herself from her friends by choice- and it's fair to say that her and Willow were friends before hand, and her and Buffy had been getting closer. She deliberately throws all that away because its the easier option than say, forgiveness. 🙁
But instead she reverts to type, which isn't strong at all, but a psychological crutch- go back to being 'Cordy- queen bitch'. That is in no way character growth, its reverting to form. 🙂

Agreed, Wesley screwed up, no question.

But he recieves plenty of hate form Gunn, and anger from Fred, and what is Cody's reaction to his betrayal if not supreme indifference?

These two were friends since S1 and she doesn't even ask after him? Go see him?
Yeah, I understand that Angel is the priority, but nothing? That's real indifference, and also kind of harsh. Cordy never goes out to find Wesley's side of the story, why he did what he did.
In fact 'Cordy' doesn't actually speak to Wes again until S5 'You're Welocme' which is just sad.

And unlike Cordelia Wesley still cares enough about his former friends to help them time and again. In 'The Price' he saves Fred's life, in 'Deep Down' he saves Angel, he never stops researching into what happened to Cordelia and then gives the info to Angel when he comes around.
That isn't self-pity, that's resilient, being self-reliant. 🙂

Going back to simply mocking you're former friends, that's weakness imo.

How does Cordy throw that away, like I said, they don't visit her, they don't make an effort, Willow doesn't even apologise. Why would she then go to them and be all forgivey - who would do that? A saint maybe,or someone incredibly needy and desperate - which Cordy isn't.

And, to my memory, Cordy is nowhere near as mean to the scoobies as she was in earlier seasons, except for Xander who, let's face it, deserved some meanness.

Wesley was seeking redemption, he was trying to make up for what he'd done, even if he does say otherwise because he's too proud to ask for forgiveness or admit he's wrong.

Why would Cordy go to Wesley, yes they had known each other since season 1, but they were never that close, and she, like everyone else, knew his side of the story - she had better things to do. Why didn't Wesley go to Cordelia with his concerns? She's connected to the PTB, if you're going to do something momuentally stupid for the 'greater good' maybe it would be a good idea to ask someone intune with the greater good, who just happes to be one of your best friends? Wesley didn't see Cordy as worthy of his trust, he betrayed her when he betrayed Angel, and he had to suffer the consequences. Plus with Angel being Angel, if Cordy had gone to Wesley then that kind of action might have seemed like a betrayal, when Angel tries to kill Wesley he basically forces his team to pick a side, him or Wesley - for Cordelia, Wesley had no chance.

Unlike Wesley, Cordy does continue to help her former non-friends, she's still there helping throughout season 3.

Also, In the price, Wesley only helps because it's Fred, anyone else and he was going to let them die - how noble. Re saving Angel, if he hadn't betrayed Angel in the first place then he wouldn't have needed saving, it's the least Wesley could do. Plus, he does not do it out of the goodness of his heart, he's too 'dark for that, so there must be another reason? Whatever could it be, redemption perhaps?

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

p.s. The Price slugs were also there as a consequence of Wesley's betrayal/Angel's recklessness...