In "Crush" Buffy and Joyce and Willow are all discussing Spike's crush on her. Joyce for some reason thinks that Buffy might have unintentionally led him on in some way. I always thought that Buffy looked like she didn't mind the thought of Spike's crush. Especially when Willow is questioning her. Did anyone else think that? She seemed awfully chipper lol, but maybe that was just Buffy in her cute mode. If you hate Spuffy, I can already guess what you're gonna write. Curious to know people's reactions.
Taking the ep as a whole she did not want Spike after her. She expressed disgust, violence, and at the end she barred Spike from her home with magic (revoking the invitation). So it doesn't strike me that she was okay with him or liking the idea of the two of them together. (Taking the one scene of Buffy with Willow and Joyce by itself makes it harder, and I'm not sure if the writers were trying to be amusing or teasing with it.)
Still, maybe being tasered and chained up didn't help. Or telling Dawn stories. 😛
The only thing that would make me think that Buffy does have at least a conflicted desire for Spike is that she didn't stake him when she had reason enough as it was. But then Spike, like Dru and Harmony, gets plot armor (and immunity from Slaying) with no real in-universe explanation of it.
In "Crush" Buffy and Joyce and Willow are all discussing Spike's crush on her. Joyce for some reason thinks that Buffy might have unintentionally led him on in some way. I always thought that Buffy looked like she didn't mind the thought of Spike's crush. Especially when Willow is questioning her. Did anyone else think that? She seemed awfully chipper lol, but maybe that was just Buffy in her cute mode. If you hate Spuffy, I can already guess what you're gonna write. Curious to know people's reactions.
Well, Joyce is an idiot throughout her run - mostly used for laughs in universe.
I saw a very unhappy Buffy. A Buffy who did not appreciate Spike's attention at all.
Throughout the episode Buffy ridiculed or smacked down Spike's hilariously bad wooing attempts. Personally, I think the hilariously bad wooing attempts are where spike & spuffy fans lose Buffy's very negative reactions to Spike's wooing.
'Chipper' is an interesting description of a distressed Buffy's facial expressions & body language.
I don't hate Spike and I am extermely interested in what you believe the supposed Spike haters would write.
In "Crush" Buffy and Joyce and Willow are all discussing Spike's crush on her. Joyce for some reason thinks that Buffy might have unintentionally led him on in some way. I always thought that Buffy looked like she didn't mind the thought of Spike's crush. Especially when Willow is questioning her. Did anyone else think that? She seemed awfully chipper lol, but maybe that was just Buffy in her cute mode. If you hate Spuffy, I can already guess what you're gonna write. Curious to know people's reactions.
The problem is we know what the writers was going for because right before the episode aired David Fury openly stated. Buffy and Spike shouldn't be together. That Spike was evil and anything else would make Angel less special and he should go be the villain on that show. Hell he even called Spuffy shippers serial killer lovers which generated a storm at the time. We know what he was going for. Spike literally has a stalker shrine. Couldn't be more clearer than that. So its hard to give an in Universe reason trying to justify something when the writer was so explicitly clear on the subject of his intent.
To be honest the whole thing felt flat for me because Buffy had to be really stupid not to wonder why Spike took a picture of her from her house. Also why didn't Riley tell her about the Sweater sniffing ?. She's clueless because the script needed her to be so it didn't feel organic (least said about her ignoring OOMM the better) Its the same reason she does nothing and let's Drusilla and Harmony just walk away !!!
Realistically she should've if not killed Spike after Crush basically run him out of town.
When I saw it? She was understandably revolted by the idea. Who on earth would enjoy the idea that a murderous stalker is obsessed with them? The episode unequivocally showed what a dangerous, obsessed, total creep that Spike was by this point.
And that was before the toxic awfulness that was the relationship from hell. So, nothing to do with Spuffy.
thetopherYes, he's a soulless monster that regularly tries to kill her/her friends....but he's just so preettty!
In "Crush" Buffy and Joyce and Willow are all discussing Spike's crush on her. Joyce for some reason thinks that Buffy might have unintentionally led him on in some way. I always thought that Buffy looked like she didn't mind the thought of Spike's crush. Especially when Willow is questioning her. Did anyone else think that? She seemed awfully chipper lol, but maybe that was just Buffy in her cute mode. If you hate Spuffy, I can already guess what you're gonna write. Curious to know people's reactions.
This is amusing- so as a Spuffy shipper you admit that you won't see it otherwise and we can guess what you'll write, yes?
I must admit, I appreciate Spuffies and their efforts to pull this imaginary attraction from Buffy out of nowhere. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat! 😂
From the same episode: Buffy: "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious"
Buffy: "I want you out. I want you out of this town, I want you off this planet! You don't come near me, my friends, or my family again ever! Understand?"
Yes, sounds to me like a woman attracted to a soulless demon!
Buffy is is no way 'chipper' or looking like she was flattered by Spike's affections towards her. But of course, you are free to believe what you like, even though all the evidence shows otherwise.
This is amusing- so as a Spuffy shipper you admit that you won't see it otherwise and we can guess what you'll write, yes?
I must admit, I appreciate Spuffies and their efforts to pull this imaginary attraction from Buffy out of nowhere. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat! 😂
From the same episode: Buffy: "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious"
Buffy: "I want you out. I want you out of this town, I want you off this planet! You don't come near me, my friends, or my family again ever! Understand?"
Yes, sounds to me like a woman attracted to a soulless demon!
Buffy is is no way 'chipper' or looking like she was flattered by Spike's affections towards her. But of course, you are free to believe what you like, even though all the evidence shows otherwise.
My issue with Buffy is more the end which is a big script problem. Like I said she doesn't even attempt to kill Dru or Harmony (just roll her eyes) she then punches Spike and walks away. He'd just chained her up and threatened to have her killed if she didn't love him. She really should say you've got a day to get out otherwise I'll kill you or something like that
NotASlayerReally, she should have just straight up staked him, because who knows what he would do next?
My issue with Buffy is more the end which is a big script problem. Like I said she doesn't even attempt to kill Dru or Harmony (just roll her eyes) she then punches Spike and walks away. He'd just chained her up and threatened to have her killed if she didn't love him. She really should say you've got a day to get out otherwise I'll kill you or something like that
At the time Whedon was asked about the Spike controversy after Fury's comments. His reply was no comment !
Its not like he was a Spuffy its just he recognised the character was popular and so wanted to keep him on the show.
@NotASlayer he had a chip in his head but she should've run him out of town without question.
Here's a question Would Soulless Chipped Spike work as a villain on Angel ?
NotASlayerYes; Out of My Mind, Crush, Fool for Love, The Yoko Factor and probably more showed that Spike was a threat even with a chip, a fact he literally told Xander and Giles to their faces.
I've never really seen anything in show that makes me think Buffy was into Spike in that way pre season 6, or thay she liked his advances toward her.
I definitely think she was bothered by the thought of him having a crush on her. As others above have pointed out, the rest of her actions in this episode prove to me that she's not feeling it.
In "Crush" Buffy and Joyce and Willow are all discussing Spike's crush on her. Joyce for some reason thinks that Buffy might have unintentionally led him on in some way.
Buffy did mind the thought of Spike's crush, she couldn't even accept she liked him when she was literally ****ing him! (sorry for the crude language hehe 🥲)
She hated herself for being with him...
My issue with Buffy is more the end which is a big script problem. Like I said she doesn't even attempt to kill Dru or Harmony (just roll her eyes) she then punches Spike and walks away. He'd just chained her up and threatened to have her killed if she didn't love him. She really should say you've got a day to get out otherwise I'll kill you or something like that
100% agree. It is a script problem, and it's something that's been discussed in the past here. For the actor, it's great to keep him on and have a steady gig. He's popular amongst fans - myself included! And I'd be the first to say as my favourite character from the series, I would've been really disappointed to see Spike killed off.
However - in universe, it makes no sense whatsoever that he remained alive after everything he did. Or the fact that he wasn't run out of town at that point is mind boggling.
Spike has shown he hates them all (as NotASlayer said, he actually directly tells them so!), and that he's certainly not harmless even with the chip in place. So the whole idea of the Scoobies not killing harmless creatures doesn't apply when William has shown he can still inflict damage.
Buffy hearing Dru say, "My boy's been feeding again" should be enough alone for her to shove a stake through his heart.
Bouncing Spike over to AtS would've been the best choice at this point. Instead we got....what we got. And thus, s5 began the ruination of a fantastic character because of him "falling in love" with Buffy.
At the time Whedon was asked about the Spike controversy after Fury's comments. His reply was no comment !
Its not like he was a Spuffy its just he recognised the character was popular and so wanted to keep him on the show.
@NotASlayer he had a chip in his head but she should've run him out of town without question.
Here's a question Would Soulless Chipped Spike work as a villain on Angel ?
I mean, you can look at s5 AtS - you barely even remember Spike has a soul, so I think it could work.
He could start out being a villain and trying to kill Angel, fails once again, and becomes a bit of an anti-hero. Helps Angel and co. and able to engage in a spot of violence which he enjoys.
He'd fit in better with the crew there - I do think it would mean he'd have a reduced role on the series though. Which was needed on BTVS anyway.
100% agree. It is a script problem, and it's something that's been discussed in the past here. For the actor, it's great to keep him on and have a steady gig. He's popular amongst fans - myself included! And I'd be the first to say as my favourite character from the series, I would've been really disappointed to see Spike killed off.
However - in universe, it makes no sense whatsoever that he remained alive after everything he did. Or the fact that he wasn't run out of town at that point is mind boggling.
Spike has shown he hates them all (as NotASlayer said, he actually directly tells them so!), and that he's certainly not harmless even with the chip in place. So the whole idea of the Scoobies not killing harmless creatures doesn't apply when William has shown he can still inflict damage.
Buffy hearing Dru say, "My boy's been feeding again" should be enough alone for her to shove a stake through his heart.
Bouncing Spike over to AtS would've been the best choice at this point. Instead we got....what we got. And thus, s5 began the ruination of a fantastic character because of him "falling in love" with Buffy.
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Would the 'higher ups' have some say in not killing a popular character off, I wonder?
I mean, you can look at s5 AtS - you barely even remember Spike has a soul, so I think it could work.
He could start out being a villain and trying to kill Angel, fails once again, and becomes a bit of an anti-hero. Helps Angel and co. and able to engage in a spot of violence which he enjoys.
He'd fit in better with the crew there - I do think it would mean he'd have a reduced role on the series though. Which was needed on BTVS anyway.
Id forgotten about the blood thing too. Yeah that's ignored as well.
For me the big one was Out of My Mind, neither Buffy or Riley hell or The Initiative bother to go and confront Spike after what he did. I mean literally the next episode its pretty much forgotten and business as usual. Even more so in Listening to Fear when the Initiative burst in to Buffys house. Like shouldn't he be worried, I guess not 🤷♂️
I dont think so. I mean Angel as Whedon says was the guy who beat him up in High School, that didn't stop him giving him a spin off show. I think it was just Spikes a popular character and he had good chemistry with Buffy/SMG it was that simple.
Personally I think Spike works best as the Anti Hero rather than an out right villain and yeah you could have a chipped but soulless Spike on Ats in that role.
I was really confused when Joyce said that. I think it was for laughs.
Buffy did mind the thought of Spike's crush, she couldn't even accept she liked him when she was literally ****ing him! (sorry for the crude language hehe 🥲)
She hated herself for being with him...
I think 🤔 it was just to set up Buffys I do beat him up a lot thats like 3rd base line. Nothing more
The writers would often do that. Have a line they really like but not care to much how it's set up. Jane Espenson was the queen of that and character actions as well. Earshot being the most obvious example
Personally I think Spike works best as the Anti Hero rather than an out right villain and yeah you could have a chipped but soulless Spike on Ats in that role.
Spike did work well as a reluctant ally/anti hero, and there's nothing to say that a Spike that starts off as a villain on Angel has to stay that way. After all, even in S2, he allies against Angelus because Angelus wants to destroy the world and from Spike's point of view that's where all his cool things are.
Buffy did mind the thought of Spike's crush, she couldn't even accept she liked him when she was literally ****ing him! (sorry for the crude language hehe 🥲)
She hated herself for being with him...
Completely true; with Angel, Riley and even Parker, Buffy being interested in them was easy to tell. She would talk about them before, and after, discuss them with Willow and it was obvious that she was attracted. That never showed with Spike. She never even said anything like "He may be a murderous, soulless, serial killer who's tried to kill me multiple times, but he's kinda hot." No, the only one who did anything like that was Xander.
Id forgotten about the blood thing too. Yeah that's ignored as well.
For me the big one was Out of My Mind, neither Buffy or Riley hell or The Initiative bother to go and confront Spike after what he did. I mean literally the next episode its pretty much forgotten and business as usual. Even more so in Listening to Fear when the Initiative burst in to Buffys house. Like shouldn't he be worried, I guess not 🤷♂️
True, and a good point. You'd think Spike would be panicked at what might happen. He even has the gall to show up at the Magic Box after what he did. Ok, Giles threatens/confronts him to stay away from them/Buffy, but it's clear Spike isn't bothered. Very bizarre.
I dont think so. I mean Angel as Whedon says was the guy who beat him up in High School, that didn't stop him giving him a spin off show. I think it was just Spikes a popular character and he had good chemistry with Buffy/SMG it was that simple.
Personally I think Spike works best as the Anti Hero rather than an out right villain and yeah you could have a chipped but soulless Spike on Ats in that role.
I think 🤔 it was just to set up Buffys I do beat him up a lot thats like 3rd base line. Nothing more
The writers would often do that. Have a line they really like but not care to much how it's set up. Jane Espenson was the queen of that and character actions as well. Earshot being the most obvious example
Exactly. He generates chemistry with a door - you could pair him off with anyone. Take a look at how much Spike fanfic is out there and all the pairings.
Completely true; with Angel, Riley and even Parker, Buffy being interested in them was easy to tell. She would talk about them before, and after, discuss them with Willow and it was obvious that she was attracted. That never showed with Spike. She never even said anything like "He may be a murderous, soulless, serial killer who's tried to kill me multiple times, but he's kinda hot." No, the only one who did anything like that was Xander.
Great point, I never really thought about that! And now thinking about it, even her mannerisms would change slightly when she showed attraction to a guy. That never appeared with Spike.
The higher ups always make those decisions (unless the actor quits). TV has always been a hugely interactive format because the studios and networks do not pay to produce the shows. The advertisers pay.
Because of this disconnect between production & payment, the advertisers & networks & studios don't trust each other. Each relies on their own analyses of a show's audience to determine that show's worth.
Since about 1945, when some really smart viewers figuered out how to let the players know what they felt throughout a season, shows were changed by studio or network directive and the producers did what they were told or were replaced.
This is amusing- so as a Spuffy shipper you admit that you won't see it otherwise and we can guess what you'll write, yes?
I must admit, I appreciate Spuffies and their efforts to pull this imaginary attraction from Buffy out of nowhere. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat! 😂
From the same episode: Buffy: "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious"
Buffy: "I want you out. I want you out of this town, I want you off this planet! You don't come near me, my friends, or my family again ever! Understand?"
Yes, sounds to me like a woman attracted to a soulless demon!
Buffy is is no way 'chipper' or looking like she was flattered by Spike's affections towards her. But of course, you are free to believe what you like, even though all the evidence shows otherwise.
I've never really seen anything in show that makes me think Buffy was into Spike in that way pre season 6, or thay she liked his advances toward her.
I definitely think she was bothered by the thought of him having a crush on her. As others above have pointed out, the rest of her actions in this episode prove to me that she's not feeling it.
I was really confused when Joyce said that. I think it was for laughs.
Buffy did mind the thought of Spike's crush, she couldn't even accept she liked him when she was literally ****ing him! (sorry for the crude language hehe 🥲)
She hated herself for being with him...
I think a part of her did in 6, but I believe her "I love you" in 7 was for real. There was a lot of progression in the final season towards redemption of Spike.
Taking the ep as a whole she did not want Spike after her. She expressed disgust, violence, and at the end she barred Spike from her home with magic (revoking the invitation). So it doesn't strike me that she was okay with him or liking the idea of the two of them together. (Taking the one scene of Buffy with Willow and Joyce by itself makes it harder, and I'm not sure if the writers were trying to be amusing or teasing with it.)
Still, maybe being tasered and chained up didn't help. Or telling Dawn stories. 😛
The only thing that would make me think that Buffy does have at least a conflicted desire for Spike is that she didn't stake him when she had reason enough as it was. But then Spike, like Dru and Harmony, gets plot armor (and immunity from Slaying) with no real in-universe explanation of it.
Appreciate your thoughtful response. Although I love Spike and Buffy together, I do think in some ways they took over the show to the point where in the final season other characters were getting the shaft. Pre-redemption Spike definitely made some bonehead decisions. I still think he genuinely loved her and finally, she him. The best part of a board like this is seeing how intelligent viewers of Buffy are with all of our wildly different opinions. I really like reading people's responses, esp. when they keep it cool and civil.
"Hey, this murderer and rapist who is a literal serial killer for people like me and who has tried to kill me and people I care about multiple times, and whom I have never shown the slightest bit of interest in is now also sexually obsessed with me! How flattering!"
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