Demons And Souls

[white avenger]

I can't recall this ever being addressed directly on the show, so it will probably just be guess and conjecture either way, but...

Do demons have souls? We know that vampires don't have souls. That's canon. But we have several examples of benevolent demons residing in both LA and Sunnydale, demons who give every indication of distinguishing the difference in right and wrong, and willingly do the right thing, Clem, for example (at least, we get the feeling that he's trustworthy and good. Buffy left Dawn in his care in Season 6, and he didn't have anything resembling a soul)

I'm not really sure if Lorne would be properly called a demon or an alien, a demon, or both, but there can be little doubt that, whatever he is, he is one of the good guys through choice, knows the difference between right and wrong, and can feel remorse for his actions, all things associated with the soul in the Buffyverse.

 

[EVIL UU]

Some demons have souls, some don't. Vengeance demons have a soul for example:

D'hoffryn: Hmm. You want to take it back. Must be twelve bodies in there. Such a thing not easily done. But not impossible. You're a big girl, Anyanka. You understand how this works. The proverbial scales must balance. In order to restore the lives of the victims, the fates require a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon.

 

[bespangeled]

Some demons have souls, some don't. Vengeance demons have a soul for example:

D'hoffryn: Hmm. You want to take it back. Must be twelve bodies in there. Such a thing not easily done. But not impossible. You're a big girl, Anyanka. You understand how this works. The proverbial scales must balance. In order to restore the lives of the victims, the fates require a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon.

Which is a major shark jump, IMO. Angel goes through all sorts of moral torture because of the victims he destroyed once he has a soul. Anyanka killed at least 100 times more, while she was souled, and doesn't seem at all bothered by that fact. Allowing a souled demon to carry out massive destruction without even a twinge of guilt is a complete revision of all the B-verse canon.

 

[white avenger]

Anyanka killed at least 100 times more, while she was souled, and doesn't seem at all bothered by that fact. Allowing a souled demon to carry out massive destruction without even a twinge of guilt is a complete revision of all the B-verse canon.

Not necessarily. I think that Angel felt the constant nearly overwhelming guilt for what Angelus did because it was that feeling of unrelenting guilt, not so much the soul itself, that was Angel's actual curse, which would make Anya's reaction, as well as Spike's, the normal one.

 

[Blaze]

Ya, I agree that some demons have souls, while others don't. There's also the possibility of not being entirely bad even without a soul because of the personality, like Harmony and in some instances Spike, or doing wrong while still having a soul, like Anya. So it's a pretty big balancing game between personality, soul and also the nature of the demons. Some likely just hunt humans out of nature like a wolf hunts the sheep, and it has little to see with morality. Because if it's in the nature, than in their "culture", killing a human for example might not be morally wrong.

Like the Pylea arc where humans were cows. Well in this case it's more of a cultural aspect than it is about souls or no souls. Same could be said about Anya. She grew up in that vengeance demon culture where exacting revenge is normal, therefore it might not be viewed as wrong to kill people if it is for revenge. It is not until she is human again that she understand the implication of the soul for a human. Just because both have souls involved with morality, doesn't mean the morality system is always the same.

 

[bespangeled]

Not necessarily. I think that Angel felt the constant nearly overwhelming guilt for what Angelus did because it was that feeling of unrelenting guilt, not so much the soul itself, that was Angel's actual curse, which would make Anya's reaction, as well as Spike's, the normal one.

You believe the normal reaction of a souled demon is to engage in massacres and not be bothered?! Angel got his soul after the fact. Anyanka had a soul while she was committing atrocities. 

Ya, I agree that some demons have souls, while others don't. There's also the possibility of not being entirely bad even without a soul because of the personality, like Harmony and in some instances Spike, or doing wrong while still having a soul, like Anya. So it's a pretty big balancing game between personality, soul and also the nature of the demons. Some likely just hunt humans out of nature like a wolf hunts the sheep, and it has little to see with morality. Because if it's in the nature, than in their "culture", killing a human for example might not be morally wrong.

Like the Pylea arc where humans were cows. Well in this case it's more of a cultural aspect than it is about souls or no souls. Same could be said about Anya. She grew up in that vengeance demon culture where exacting revenge is normal, therefore it might not be viewed as wrong to kill people if it is for revenge. It is not until she is human again that she understand the implication of the soul for a human. Just because both have souls involved with morality, doesn't mean the morality system is always the same.

She was Norse. She cursed her husband and made him into a troll because she isn't like the way he looked at a bar maid. It was after that when she was recruited into becoming a vengeance demon - as a full adult. And while she was a souled vengeance demon, she committed more murders than the fanged four ever dreamed of. Remember the scene at the Russian Revolution?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Which is a major shark jump, IMO. Angel goes through all sorts of moral torture because of the victims he destroyed once he has a soul. Anyanka killed at least 100 times more, while she was souled, and doesn't seem at all bothered by that fact. Allowing a souled demon to carry out massive destruction without even a twinge of guilt is a complete revision of all the B-verse canon.

A soul is no guarantee of a good person. Humans in the buffyverse (just as in our real life verse) do horrible things too. As I've said in other threads, I think too much is made about the soul=good, i.e. the moral side of it. It leads to confusion about the real value and message about souls. When it comes to the vampires, regaining a soul means regaining humanity...which means the ability to choose actions, to choose between right and wrong, etc. It is the choice that is critical when it comes to having a soul. Vampires without souls have no ability to overcome their baser, wicked, cruel natures, not entirely and not indefinitely. Eventually, vampires without a soul succumb to their other side. And because they cannot stop this from happening, they have no free will or choice. They have no soul because essentially they have no choice in how they will be. Whether endowed with nicer personalities (e.g. Holden) or not, they cannot override the darker side to themselves indefinitely. Regaining a soul does not mean that a vampire will turn out good afterwards. It only means that their humanity has been restored and they can choose for themselves how they want to behave.

I think the lesson of vampires without souls, from a meta perspective (as intended by the creator of the show) was that free will and choice is the important element to having humanity, to being human. And it makes sense. Whedon is on record about liking existentialism, Angel reads Camus, etc. The show resembles nothing of proper academic Existentialism in most other respects; however, the heavy emphasis on free will and choice, the difference this makes in humans over all other things and how it defines what it means to be human (consider Sartre's discussion of the for-itself versus the in-itself for just one example) and its relationship to the concept of authenticity...all of this is very Existential, and since Whedon was an avowed casual arm-chair fan of it, I think it makes a lot of sense to view vampires/souls in this light.

 

[Blaze]

She was Norse. She cursed her husband and made him into a troll because she isn't like the way he looked at a bar maid. It was after that when she was recruited into becoming a vengeance demon - as a full adult. And while she was a souled vengeance demon, she committed more murders than the fanged four ever dreamed of. Remember the scene at the Russian Revolution?

But Anya was a vengeance demon for centuries. Surely the vengeance culture would have rubbed off on her. Obviously, the first act was committed as a human, but what I'm saying is that when you hang around a certain culture, you adopt that culture.

For example in the pass, there were cultures where human sacrifices and cannibalism were viewed as normal. It wasn't immoral to do those things, even though by our standards of modern society those things are highly immoral. After decades of being a vengeance demons, surely Anya would have changed her morality code.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm saying is that when you hang around a certain culture, you adopt that culture.

But that is not true. Anya never did. She only fixated on one type of vengeance. Maybe if the rest of the community did rub off on her she would have been well balanced.

 

[Blaze]

But that is not true. Anya never did. She only fixated on one type of vengeance. Maybe if the rest of the community did rub off on her she would have been well balanced.

She did. But We only ever saw 2(I think?) vengeance demons and D'Hoffryn. I'm pretty sure the only rule was that you inflicted revenge on people, and Anya did that pretty well. Vengeance is really the only world she knew, so soul or no soul, she would have kept doing it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

She did. But We only ever saw 2(I think?) vengeance demons and D'Hoffryn. I'm pretty sure the only rule was that you inflicted revenge on people, and Anya did that pretty well. Vengeance is really the only world she knew, so soul or no soul, she would have kept doing it.

Right but she still focused all of her attention on men. That was the running joke. Where other vengeance demons were actually vengeance demons she was just a 'man hater' so she learned nothing and failed grown beyond that in all her years of man damning. She never cared for, or experienced the duality of it.

as an aside.. I have been on hold for well over an hour with the IRS, the vengeance demony gig doesnt sound bad right now.

 

[Blaze]

Right but she still focused all of her attention on men. That was the running joke. Where other vengeance demons were actually vengeance demons she was just a 'man hater' so she learned nothing and failed grown beyond that in all her years of man damning. She never cared for, or experienced the duality of it.

Why would she need to experience both though to understand the consequences of revenge? I think it's a little too simple to simply call her the "man hater". At the core, I do think Anya did some of what she did for the wrong reasons, but I'm fairly sure Halfrek was just as "immoral" when it came to exacting revenge. I don't think Anya was more immoral for only doing it on man.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why would she need to experience both though to understand the consequences of revenge? I think it's a little too simple to simply call her the "man hater". At the core, I do think Anya did some of what she did for the wrong reasons, but I'm fairly sure Halfrek was just as "immoral" when it came to exacting revenge. I don't think Anya was more immoral for only doing it on man.

Hold up there! I didnt call her immoral. I just said she wasn't well balanced. I am not talking about the consequences of revenge, just the damage both sexes can do to the other. She never experienced it.

 

[Blaze]

Hold up there! I didnt call her immoral. I just said she wasn't well balanced. I am not talking about the consequences of revenge, just the damage both sexes can do to the other. She never experienced it.

Oh okay, yes that's true. But what does that have to do with the soul and the revenge "culture". I still think Anya fits in with that culture, and soul or no soul, what she would have been doing wouldn't have been considered wrong in that specific culture.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But what does that have to do with the soul and the revenge "culture".

Nothing, thats why I didnt respond about that.

what she would have been doing wouldn't have been considered wrong in that specific culture.

I never really considered what she was doing as 'wrong' anyway.. up until the spiders. The spider incident could be construed as wrong. 
I always considered the vengeance demony thing to be a modern interpretation of the Fates.

 

[white avenger]

I never really considered what she was doing as 'wrong' anyway.. up until the spiders. The spider incident could be construed as wrong.

But she felt remorse and regret for killing all those frat boys. The society in which she was currently living, or, more technically, had just left, viewed things like that as morally wrong. Anya felt that, and was willing to pay the price for what she had done.

We don't know the rules of the society in which Olaf and Aud lived, but it isn't too unreasonable to imagine that seeking revenge on a person who had betrayed you would be frowned on.

Anyanka, the vengeance demon, was apparently the equivalent of a military sniper, highly specialized and selective in picking her targets. By the rules of normal society, such a person would would be considered a psychopath and a murderer. In his own society, he is not only highly respected, but receives awards and promotions for doing his job well. Put that same man, as a civilian, in a clock tower on a college campus, and, though the action itself remains the same, the morality is totally different. Anyanka was praised and highly respected for doing the job that she was doing. There was no reason whatsoever for her to feel any shame for what she did, any more than there is a reason for the sniper to feel shame for doing his job. Upon becoming human, after an adjustment period, Anya was no longer that demon, and when she tried to return to that life, her new morals and sense of right and wrong kept her from going back.

 

[bespangeled]

Wait - Anya is a vengeance demon, and that is the problem not the excuse. By that measure, it would be perfectly fine if Anglus kept on murdering after he got his soul. In fact, there would be no reason for his soul to leave at all once the demon arrives. As long as he only killed adulterers, slowly and painfully, then everyone else would be safe.

We are talking about an adult who was so creative about punishments that D'Hoffryn made her into an eternal demon. With the same soul she always had she creatively killed and mutilated anyone who fit her standards for 1000 years - all of those years of creative butchery With A Soul! So explain to me why a soul keeps both Angel and Spike from committing murders, and why that is a good thing? If Anya can do keep killing, why can't they? And Anya never quit vengeance - her power source was destroyed. If the vamps don't want to kill anymore once they get a soul, does that make Anya far more evil than an average vampire, one with no soul?

BTW - I don' dislike Anya, though I think she was criminally underused. This is not about her - it's about the fat that the mythos they created about her soul was completely at odds with what the reasoning about souls in the rest of the series.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

In fact, there would be no reason for his soul to leave at all once the demon arrives. As long as he only killed adulterers, slowly and painfully, then everyone else would be safe.

Or no reason for him to get a soul if he only killed adulterers, etc

 

[bespangeled]

Or no reason for him to get a soul if he only killed adulterers, etc

No - Anya had a soul. Anya killed while having soul, and had absolutely no remorse or guilt. In fact, she enjoyed the memories.. My point is that there is now no reason for any vampire with a soul to even slow down killing. Just chose one group of sinners and go for it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No - Anya had a soul. Anya killed while having soul, and had absolutely no remorse or guilt. In fact, she enjoyed the memories.. My point is that there is now no reason for any vampire with a soul to even slow down killing. Just chose one group of sinners and go for it.

Thats what I said. There was no reason for him to GET a soul if he only killed "bad" people.