Demons And Souls

[bespangeled]

Thats what I said. There was no reason for him to GET a soul if he only killed "bad" people.

I do agree with that, and I know where you are coming from. My point is kind of the opposite side of the same coin. Since the soul is the arbiter of goodness in the B-verse, to make a souled demon a mass murderer who enjoys her work goes against the very nature of the B-verse soul. Angelus discovered that back during the Boxer rebellion.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Since the soul is the arbiter of goodness in the B-verse

But I never viewed it as such. I viewed it the way Joss described it.

 

[bespangeled]

But I never viewed it as such. I viewed it the way Joss described it.

And that would be?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And that would be?

I've mentioned it numerous times before and I dont have the exact quote to hand.. I am paraphrasing.. everyone has the ability to do good or evil. Those with souls are more disposed to good, while those without are more disposed to evil. But having or not having a soul does not prevent or limit one from their actions.

That (paraphrasing aside) is what Whedon said some time ago. Long before Spike had a soul so that may have changed... but that was his original 'vision' of what a soul meant.

 

[thetopher]

Aren't there 'balancing demons', demons that don't do any harm and are considered 'good'ish but they still haven't got a soul?

I mean Clem seems like a nice demon (if you're not a kitten) but he does hang around demons who ARE evil, so is he really that good? Or is he maybe just pleasent or nicely disposed?
Merle seemed shady but he wasn't harming anybody, he wasn't really doing anything I couldn't see a human doing in the same situation, and then there was that demon from 'Judgement', the one that was protecting the mother-to-be completely against character- what was his deal?

I guess that the soul gives you the choice to go one way or the other (or maybe back and forth)- good or evil. It's not a decider. I do think that Anya is an utter anomoly though- she's cheerfully regaling Xander which horrific stories at the Prom (people exploding, a guy cannibalising himself...) and yet she is also capable of experiencing emotion (even romantic emotion) so why doesn't she feel bad about those memories? Does she disassociate herself from her previous life when she lost her powers? Is she a sociopath?

Btw- Angel felt guilt because of his soul, not because of the curse. There is no mention that the curse gives him a soul AND makes him feel guilty. It's just that one thing, and as we saw Angel was capable of doing bad things with the soul, which presumably he couldn't of done if all that guilt was somehow 'magically' inflicted.

 

[VisionBoy]

I don't think they thought Anya through that much really. She has a soul yet caused so much death and misery with no remorse, but yet she can love and even shows empathy and concern at times.

Also, she was once human, yet struggles with basic human concepts. Sure she was from a time long ago and that would certainly take some getting used to, but being human in itself shouldn't be so alien to Anya if that's how she started. I can't see why things like death, relationships etc. would perplex her quite so much if she was once mortal, even if it was a long time ago.

 

[white avenger]

Wait - Anya is a vengeance demon, and that is the problem not the excuse. By that measure, it would be perfectly fine if Anglus kept on murdering after he got his soul. In fact, there would be no reason for his soul to leave at all once the demon arrives. As long as he only killed adulterers, slowly and painfully, then everyone else would be safe.

Or no reason for him to get a soul if he only killed adulterers, etc

But that is exactly what Angel did in the beginning. He convinced Darla to let him stay with the group, but after getting his soul, he only killed murderers, rapists, and the like, people who "needed" killing, not infants and virgins. As long as he continued to stay with the vampires, he lived by their morals, i e, he killed and fed on humans (he just went on an infant free diet) Once he left them, the only thing that we ever see him feeding on is rats, and one freshly killed murder victim.

No - Anya had a soul. Anya killed while having soul, and had absolutely no remorse or guilt. In fact, she enjoyed the memories.. My point is that there is now no reason for any vampire with a soul to even slow down killing. Just chose one group of sinners and go for it.

That's how Angel justified what he was doing in the beginning. Then, after he permanently left Darla and the others, he apparently led a mostly solitary life, except for crashing Elvis' wedding party and getting drafter by the Initiative to recover a submarine.

It wasn't until Whistler recruited him, apparently, that he even realized that he could buy fresh blood from slaughter houses and butcher shops. Up until then, he must have been killing animals, probably strays, to live off of. Either that, or he played kitten poker to stay alive.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But that is exactly what Angel did in the beginning. He convinced Darla to let him stay with the group, but after getting his soul, he only killed murderers, rapists, and the like, people who "needed" killing, not infants and virgins. As long as he continued to stay with the vampires, he lived by their morals, i e, he killed and fed on humans (he just went on an infant free diet) Once he left them, the only thing that we ever see him feeding on is rats, and one freshly killed murder victim.

And again, I really dont see a problem with that. In fact you could argue that he was fighting 'evil' long before Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

Aren't there 'balancing demons', demons that don't do any harm and are considered 'good'ish but they still haven't got a soul?

I mean Clem seems like a nice demon (if you're not a kitten) but he does hang around demons who ARE evil, so is he really that good? Or is he maybe just pleasent or nicely disposed?
Merle seemed shady but he wasn't harming anybody, he wasn't really doing anything I couldn't see a human doing in the same situation, and then there was that demon from 'Judgement', the one that was protecting the mother-to-be completely against character- what was his deal?

I guess that the soul gives you the choice to go one way or the other (or maybe back and forth)- good or evil. It's not a decider. I do think that Anya is an utter anomoly though- she's cheerfully regaling Xander which horrific stories at the Prom (people exploding, a guy cannibalising himself...) and yet she is also capable of experiencing emotion (even romantic emotion) so why doesn't she feel bad about those memories? Does she disassociate herself from her previous life when she lost her powers? Is she a sociopath?

Btw- Angel felt guilt because of his soul, not because of the curse. There is no mention that the curse gives him a soul AND makes him feel guilty. It's just that one thing, and as we saw Angel was capable of doing bad things with the soul, which presumably he couldn't of done if all that guilt was somehow 'magically' inflicted.

Clem is both goodish - and lacking a soul. Anya was flat out evil hand - and she had a soul while she was doing evil. What Joss says about souls here undercuts the whole mythos - why would anyone trust Angel if he could still do everything he did with his soul? 

But that is exactly what Angel did in the beginning. He convinced Darla to let him stay with the group, but after getting his soul, he only killed murderers, rapists, and the like, people who "needed" killing, not infants and virgins. As long as he continued to stay with the vampires, he lived by their morals, i e, he killed and fed on humans (he just went on an infant free diet) Once he left them, the only thing that we ever see him feeding on is rats, and one freshly killed murder victim.



That's how Angel justified what he was doing in the beginning. Then, after he permanently left Darla and the others, he apparently led a mostly solitary life, except for crashing Elvis' wedding party and getting drafter by the Initiative to recover a submarine.

It wasn't until Whistler recruited him, apparently, that he even realized that he could buy fresh blood from slaughter houses and butcher shops. Up until then, he must have been killing animals, probably strays, to live off of. Either that, or he played kitten poker to stay alive.

That's all pretty much what I was saying.

Souled Angel fed on evil people at first, but then we are told his soul made him stop.
Souled Anya committed mayhem, torture and murder for 1000 years. Her soul had no problem with it. This calls into question why anyone would care if Angel or Spike is souled, and why getting their souls would make any difference.

 

[white avenger]

Souled Angel fed on evil people at first, but then we are told his soul made him stop.
Souled Anya committed mayhem, torture and murder for 1000 years. Her soul had no problem with it. This calls into question why anyone would care if Angel or Spike is souled, and why getting their souls would make any difference.

Initially, Angel's soul made him stop INDISCRIMINATELY killing and feeding on humans. It wasn't until later that he stopped taking human blood altogether.

 

[bespangeled]

Initially, Angel's soul made him stop INDISCRIMINATELY killing and feeding on humans. It wasn't until later that he stopped taking human blood altogether.

Agreed. At first he was willing to feed on those he felt deserved death - for two years. Then he stopped because he knew it was wrong.

Anya never stopped - never felt it was wrong - never felt any guilt - but she was souled the whole 1000 years.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Then he stopped because he knew it was wrong.

And this could be another thread... but... in the context of the show, being what is was/is, why was it wrong? Maybe the reason for his doing it was wrong (to maintain his cover to impress Spike) but I dont see why feeding on murderers and rapists is wrong.

 

[bespangeled]

And this could be another thread... but... in the context of the show, being what is was/is, why was it wrong? Maybe the reason for his doing it was wrong (to maintain his cover to impress Spike) but I dont see why feeding on murderers and rapists is wrong.

In the context of the show, killing humans is wrong. It's why we aren't supposed to cheer when Willow rips the skin off of Warren. Buffy says repeatedly that there is a justice system for humans so we can't kill them regardless of what they did or might do.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

why we aren't supposed to cheer when Willow rips the skin off of Warren.

I never got that either.. I mean.. it was a 'feel good' moment.

Buffy says repeatedly that there is a justice system for humans so we can't kill them regardless of what they did or might do.

I always thought that was because she and the rest of the gang were humans. I never really saw an issue with vampires killing the bad guys.

 

[EVIL UU]

In the context of the show, killing humans is wrong. It's why we aren't supposed to cheer when Willow rips the skin off of Warren. Buffy says repeatedly that there is a justice system for humans so we can't kill them regardless of what they did or might do.

Buffy kills Caleb and they way this scene is written? We are supposed to cheer. Out of all the major characters I think that only Tara, Dawn, Oz and Riley did not kill a human. Xander didn't kill anybody personally but hey, he still summoned that demon in "Once More, With Feeling". So Buffy, Willow, ( Xander) Giles, Angel, Spike, Anya, Faith, Andrew - all killers. How can the killing of humans be wrong in the context of the show when just about everybody does it?

 

[bespangeled]

I never got that either.. I mean.. it was a 'feel good' moment.


I always thought that was because she and the rest of the gang were humans. I never really saw an issue with vampires killing the bad guys.

Yeah - I never did either, and I also cheered for Willow but I knew that...It Was Wrong..😀 

Buffy kills Caleb and they way this scene is written? We are supposed to cheer. Out of all the major characters I think that only Tara, Dawn, Oz and Riley did not kill a human. Xander didn't kill anybody personally but hey, he still summoned that demon in "Once More, With Feeling". So Buffy, Willow, ( Xander) Giles, Angel, Spike, Anya, Faith, Andrew - all killers. How can the killing of humans be wrong in the context of the show when just about everybody does it?

I never thought Caleb was human - I mean he bled like a bad oil change - which puts Buffy off the list. Spike and Angel didn't kill once they were souled - I'm consistently told that locking Dru and Darla in with the lawyers wasn't murder. Giles killed Ben - who was at best half human. Willow killed under the effect of dark magic and ended up in magic rehab and permanently emotionally scarred, while Faith killed and ended up in jail. Xander was responsible for multiple deaths and never gave two hoots, but he didn't kill anyone on his own. So only Andrew killed and had no penalty attached.

Anya was a major mass murderer - souled - and never seemed to feel an ounce of regret.

 

[EVIL UU]

@bespangeled
Buffy kills humans. Her friends kill humans. Her lovers kill humans. Her friends' lovers kill humans too. Like, deal with it and cut the bullshit.

I never thought Caleb was human - I mean he bled like a bad oil change

Caleb is a human. The First empowers him but the effect is only temporary. Here's the relevant dialog:

The First: I do enjoy your sermons.
Caleb: And you're in me. Gave me strength no man can have.
The First: You're the only man strong enough to be my vessel. And I know you feel me but I know why they grab at each other. To feel. I want to feel. I want to wrap my hands around an innocent neck and feel it crack.
Caleb: Amen.

which puts Buffy off the list

Caleb wasn't even the only human Buffy killed - she wasted Weirick and some Knights of Byzantium too.

Spike and Angel didn't kill once they were souled

Angel killed Pete in "Beauty and The Beasts". Spike killed, like, half of the Sunnydale in season 7.

Giles killed Ben - who was at best half human.

Ben was a human:

Glory: Ben! The human meatsack who's infecting me. Do your mojo, make an incision or removal or whatever you gotta do! Help me! I'm thinking Ben's thoughts and feeling his feelings and-

Willow killed under the effect of dark magic

Yes, and? She still killed a human, did she not?

ended up permanently emotionally scarred

Bollocks.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

And yet we have one character with no soul but only righteous kills: Dawn. If she was formed from a green ball of energy, that implies that there is no soul. She was patterned after Buffy (in spite of the non-existent resemblance) but having the monks create a soul would be blasphemy and they know it - only God can create a soul and that is certainly what monks would believe. Yet Dawn exhibits all the psychological properties of a human and seems to have the normal moral principles of a human (except for being a kleptomaniac).

In "No Place Like Home", the origin of the key is revealed by the monk:

MONK
Many have... died... many more, if
you don't... keep it safe...
BUFFY
How? What is it?
MONK
The Key is energy. It's a portal.
It opens the door...
BUFFY
That round glowy thing?
MONK
(shakes his head)
For centuries it had no form at
all. My brethren... its only
keepers. Then...
He tries to point back to the factory.
MONK
The abomination... found us. We
had to hide The Key... Gave it
form. Molded it flesh, made it
human. And sent it to you.

In 'two to Go", Dark Willow threatened to turn Dawn back into the green ball of energy:

WILLOW
Did you cry?
(before she answers)
Of course you did. I get that, I
understand the crying, you cry
because you're human. But you
weren't always.
DAWN
Yes I was...
WILLOW
No - please, you're telling me you
don't remember? You used to be
...what, some mystic ball of
energy. Maybe that's why you're
crying all the time, "Dawny." You
don't belong here.
Willow gets up in Dawn's face.
WILLOW (cont'd)
Wanna go back? End the pain?
You'll be happier. I'd be
happier. We'll all be a lot
happier without having to listen
to all your constant whining.
Dawn starts to tear up, fighting her fear.
DAWN
Willow... stop...
WILLOW
(mocking)
"Mom!" "Buffy!" "Tara!" Waah!
Come on, someone's gotta stop the
carnage. It's time you went back
to being a little energy ball.
Dawn stands trapped against a far wall as the room starts to crackle with Willow's energy and her voice begins to echo of its own accord.
WILLOW (cont'd)
No more tears, Dawny.

and there doesn't seem to be any consideration of a soul in either her formation or Dark Willow's threat of extinction. Willow does not seem to think she would be killing something if Dawn reverted to her original form. Yet Dawn behaves like a typical teenage girl.

 

[The Bronze]

I think the not killing humans rule in the show is just meant to cover your regular human on human crime. Once a human crosses the line into the realms of demons and magic they fall into a different jurisdiction. 
The soul is a really difficult thing to pin down. I suspect it is a unique part of those who are born human. I think it provides a natural leaning towards the "good" or possibly just "human" side of the general struggle in the Buffyverse. I don't think it guarantees anything be it is an important part of the make up of anyone who posses one.

So I'm thinking that demons in general do not have souls unless they are converted from humans, like vengeance demons. This leaves us with the majority of demons without the same natural inclination as humans but the possibility that particular species or individuals might gravitate the other way.

It's a rough theory that places the likes of Lorne and Clem into the anomaly of decent demons in the same way that we have a percentage of vile humans.

 

[bespangeled]

I think the not killing humans rule in the show is just meant to cover your regular human on human crime. Once a human crosses the line into the realms of demons and magic they fall into a different jurisdiction. 
The soul is a really difficult thing to pin down. I suspect it is a unique part of those who are born human. I think it provides a natural leaning towards the "good" or possibly just "human" side of the general struggle in the Buffyverse. I don't think it guarantees anything be it is an important part of the make up of anyone who posses one.

So I'm thinking that demons in general do not have souls unless they are converted from humans, like vengeance demons. This leaves us with the majority of demons without the same natural inclination as humans but the possibility that particular species or individuals might gravitate the other way.

It's a rough theory that places the likes of Lorne and Clem into the anomaly of decent demons in the same way that we have a percentage of vile humans.

Need some tweaking or else all vampires would be souled since they were converted from humans