Did Angel know about Spike's rape attempt towards Buffy?

[palabravampiress]

Angelus never touched Buffy, not really. They had a few fights but in all his depravity and evilness he never forced himself on her. So it doesn't reflect anything got to do with Angelus.

Well, sure it does. Angelus violated Buffy's mind in an intentional attempt to drive her batty by attacking her family and friends and the sanctity of their homes in increasingly awful ways until she was the only one left (like he did with Dru). He wanted to do this so that she'd be weak and defenseless by the time he killed her. He wanted to crush her spirit, and then her family, and then her body. I'm glad he didn't succeed, but what he did was certainly bad enough to put it on par with what Spike did. And if it wasn't, he attempted to suck the world into hell for good measure.

I'm on the fence about this issue. It's hard for me to say that attempted rape, as terrible as that is, is worse than attempted murder (with some success along the way). Both are brutal. Both are terrifying and horrifying each in its own way. Both are primal. If the attempt succeeds, however, only one is lethal.

I don't want to say either guy was right. They both behaved abominably. They both needed to be stopped. Given the things that Angel has done (as Angelus) to Buffy and her friends and family, though, I think it is fair to argue that his own guilt might have an effect on how he reacts to Spike when he learns the truth.

 

[Kean]

Well, sure it does. Angelus violated Buffy's mind in an intentional attempt to drive her batty by attacking her family and friends and the sanctity of their homes in increasingly awful ways until she was the only one left (like he did with Dru). He wanted to do this so that she'd be weak and defenseless by the time he killed her. He wanted to crush her spirit, and then her family, and then her body. I'm glad he didn't succeed, but what he did was certainly bad enough to put it on par with what Spike did. And if it wasn't, he attempted to suck the world into hell for good measure.

I'm on the fence about this issue. It's hard for me to say that attempted rape, as terrible as that is, is worse than attempted murder (with some success along the way). Both are brutal. Both are terrifying and horrifying each in its own way. Both are primal. If the attempt succeeds, however, only one is lethal.

I don't want to say either guy was right. They both behaved abominably. They both needed to be stopped. Given the things that Angel has done (as Angelus) to Buffy and her friends and family, though, I think it is fair to argue that his own guilt might have an effect on how he reacts to Spike when he learns the truth.

Forget Spike and Angel and Spuffy vs. Bangel, for me personally there is just something horrific about rape. For a woman it is just the ultimate violation and I have trouble getting past that.

Angelus did inflict unbelievable pain on Buffy, I will never refute that but at the same time it was all make believe. He was a vampire, trying to suck the world into hell, not something I could relate to, it was just great television. Spike's attempted rape however, was a real world thing. I know girls who have been raped. I have seen the affect it has on a person. It just struck me as the most monsterous act ever shown on the show and I think that's because, people with souls rape others everyday. We can sit here and argue about Spike not having his soul but in the real world what do we argue? How do you understand that kind of violence?

Joss always said the scariest things in the world were people, and he really hit that home for me with those scenes.

 

[GATEGOD]

But then a few episodes later SPIKE is so sorry and self loathing for trying that he gets himself a soul...
He would never have even tried with one haha ^ He changes by the way he acts with her,
instead of trying to get into her pants every five minutes he'd rather lay next to her and comfort her.
Probably the main reason for that scene was to show how much spike would change in later episodes.

 

[Kean]

But then a few episodes later SPIKE is so sorry and self loathing for trying that he gets himself a soul...
He would never have even tried with one haha ^ He changes by the way he acts with her,
instead of trying to get into her pants every five minutes he'd rather lay next to her and comfort her.
Probably the main reason for that scene was to show how much spike would change in later episodes.

Joss has come out and said that the reason for those scenes was to remind the audience that Spike was evil, everyone was starting to feel sorry for him and they wanted to shock people back to the reality of the situation.

 

[GATEGOD]

Joss has come out and said that the reason for those scenes was to remind the audience that Spike was evil, everyone was starting to feel sorry for him and they wanted to shock people back to the reality of the situation.

And then he became good ^_^

 

[Kean]

And then he became good ^_^

Yeah, he did...............

 

[palabravampiress]

I get what you're saying about rape. I know people who have suffered that. I think most of us do.

But I don't think it's fair to judge this particular character and this particular act by real world standards and to judge the rest of the characters by Buffyverse standards. Yes, that scene looked and felt "real," but that doesn't mean that Angelus' reign of terror wasn't equally real to the characters. These characters live in the Buffyverse, and I think that has got to influence Angel's reaction. He can't just throw out his entire frame of reference and pick up a new one for this one situation. And his own actions against Buffy are part of that frame of reference.

Notice, I'm not arguing here that either one of them are right or good. I'm not even arguing "more wrong" or "less wrong." I'm just saying that as hard as this one scene was to watch - because of how "real" it seemed - we can't let that sway us as viewers into believing that it was somehow more "real" than other things that we've seen on the show. It can't stand outside the show. It exists within the show. So Angel's reaction, whatever it will be, has to exist within the show, too.

 

[Kean]

I get what you're saying about rape. I know people who have suffered that. I think most of us do.

But I don't think it's fair to judge this particular character and this particular act by real world standards and to judge the rest of the characters by Buffyverse standards. Yes, that scene looked and felt "real," but that doesn't mean that Angelus' reign of terror wasn't equally real to the characters. These characters live in the Buffyverse, and I think that has got to influence Angel's reaction. He can't just throw out his entire frame of reference and pick up a new one for this one situation. And his own actions against Buffy are part of that frame of reference.

Notice, I'm not arguing here that either one of them are right or good. I'm not even arguing "more wrong" or "less wrong." I'm just saying that as hard as this one scene was to watch - because of how "real" it seemed - we can't let that sway us as viewers into believing that it was somehow more "real" than other things that we've seen on the show. It can't stand outside the show. It exists within the show. So Angel's reaction, whatever it will be, has to exist within the show, too.

Good point. I still think Angel would react violently to it though, although I don't think he would kill Spike at all. I think it would be after the ass wuppin that he would reflect on what he as Angelus did to Buffy. I think all rational thought would be abandoned for awhile upon hearing about it.