Did Angel love the Fang Gang?

[bespangeled]

He did better by Connor in the end than Buffy did by Dawn. While Buffy let Dawn live on a Hellmouth and be subjected to danger daily instead of, for example, sending her away; Angel gave his son up in order for him to have a safe, happy life. And by doing that he lost "control" of Connor.

First off - Angel is half my OTP, and I love him. We just see him differently. 🙂

Buffy didn't have the resources Angel had. I have no issue with their break up. But he was stalking her by proxy while she was in Rome even after he had been told she didn't trust him anymore. Ironic, that.

He had absolute control over Connor - he hand picked and created every aspect of his new life and his new memories and personality. He left nothing to chance - made sure their was no contact with his previous life. And at least once he went to stand outside the window and bask in his son's happiness because it was all he left himself.

Honestly, I don't believe he always needs to be in control - he wants to be in charge of his life, but doesn't thrive on the power of controlling people or manipulating situations to his advantage.

He doesn't want power - it's just how he loves. Connor is the perfect example of that. And I think he probably saw removing the memories as an expression of love as well - keeping them was certainly a burden of him. He screws up things with Cordy (not real Cordy) by protecting her with lies and half truths.

He tries to create what he sees as ideal, but too often he also avoids seeing reality. W&H is a case in point. Before Connor was on the news, Angel had already decided:

ANGEL
Make that good-bye. I'm not taking the job.

LILAH
It's not a job. It's an opportunity.

ANGEL
Ooh, an opportunity to be part of the problem.

LILAH
If that's what you choose.

ANGEL
Really don't.

LILAH
Again, your choice. Think of what you can do with the resources of Wolfram & Hart at your fingertips, the difference that would make. Nothing in this world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and it's cruel, but that's why there's you, Angel. You live as if the world were as it should be. With all this, you can make it that way. People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast.

ANGEL
The beast's belly? Doesn't that usually mean you've been eaten?

He knew exactly why it wouldn't work - but after he was sold his soul to save Connor, he also convinced himself that everything Lilah had told him was the truth. The issue wasn't that he took the job. The issue was that he made himself believe this was a good thing - and he allowed them to play him by closing his eyes. Even he sees that eventually.

To me there's a difference between doing something out of habit while very slowly changing your ways and being controlling by nature. Lastly I want to add that he did give up control and let the fate of his life rest on someone else multiple times - with Whistler whom he followed almost blindly, both "Close your eyes" scenes, when he finally handed his baby over to Cordy, when he was okay with Wes taking charge of AI (he differed to him against his instincts), etc

It's both habit and his nature - and it's why Spike can get to him. As for Whistler - Angel chose to go with him, to see Buffy, to help Buffy. "Close your eyes" got him sent to Hell - a good reason not to close his eyes again. And he was gone from AI for 5 weeks, while he took control back from Wesley after 2 episodes. Being in control is his comfort zone - and he's really good at it most of the time - but it blows up in his face and causes damage to him and to others sometimes.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

First off - Angel is half my OTP, and I love him. We just see him differently. 🙂

I've had a hard time finding someone who a) likes Angel and b) sees him the same way I do which seems like a statistical improbability. The dismissive way you first answered this thread made me thing initially that you hated Angel. But I think we're starting to understand each other or at the very least I am 🙂

Buffy didn't have the resources Angel had. I have no issue with their break up. But he was stalking her by proxy while she was in Rome even after he had been told she didn't trust him anymore. Ironic, that.

I haven't watched season 5 but I read the TGIQ transcript and almost everything about that episode was bad. Also, I don't understand why Buffy, who didn't know anything about W&H, thought Angel wasn't trust worthy anymore. I mean, the guy visits her after her mom died, offered to wear a potentially lethal amulet, and prior to that has been good to her (except for the Angelus phase)... Why wouldn't she give him the benefit of the doubt?That was retconned though. But I see your point there, he definitively has boundary issues and stalking people is a power move.

He had absolute control over Connor - he hand picked and created every aspect of his new life and his new memories and personality. He left nothing to chance - made sure their was no contact with his previous life. And at least once he went to stand outside the window and bask in his son's happiness because it was all he left himself.

Did he? He probably didn't hand pick everything. It actually seems impossible to do so. Still, after giving him that life, he walked away, satisfied with how it turned out, but everything from that point forward was out of his hands. I don't think that was him trying to control Connor. There wasn't much he could do to help the kid other than giving him a make-believe world.

He knew exactly why it wouldn't work - but after he was sold his soul to save Connor, he also convinced himself that everything Lilah had told him was the truth. The issue wasn't that he took the job. The issue was that he made himself believe this was a good thing - and he allowed them to play him by closing his eyes. Even he sees that eventually.

That is something people do and Angel, with a life that messed up, chooses denial sometimes or lets himself be convinced of a better future for himself (like in Surprise or with baby Connor). He does see the truth about things eventually - there are a lot of episodes devoted to Angel's epiphanies (The Prom, Epiphany, Home). Sometimes it takes him too long, other times, like in season 2, it makes for really good television.

It's both habit and his nature - and it's why Spike can get to him. As for Whistler - Angel chose to go with him, to see Buffy, to help Buffy. "Close your eyes" got him sent to Hell - a good reason not to close his eyes again. And he was gone from AI for 5 weeks, while he took control back from Wesley after 2 episodes. Being in control is his comfort zone - and he's really good at it most of the time - but it blows up in his face and causes damage to him and to others sometimes.

He's a bit like Buffy. You can't expect the main characters and the "champions" not to be in control. The beginning of season 3 suffered a bit because Angel was kind of aimless. The show is about him, so naturally he takes charge of situations and makes most of the decisions. I think we have different views of what being in control means. I don't disagree being in control is his comfort zone - during an emergency some people might start giving orders and others might choose inaction. Angel makes a decision and sees it through - that's being in control, but it's something everyone does. Having control and power to make your decisions is important and to me Angel values control almost like everyone else. Him stalking Buffy, which frankly by season 5 doesn't make much sense, is more of an example of how he can easily lose touch with reality and morality. He's a vamp, older than the country he lives in, unrestrained by human law and who has over his life crossed so many lines with no consequences that he sometimes doesn't remember there are limits to what he should do, especially with the power W&H gives him. But then again, you might call this a power move whereas I don't believe that's part of his reasoning. I know Angel is the king of misguided actions and good deeds gone wrong, a lot of what he does ends up inadvertently robbing people of their free choice or being manipulated in some way - the show works best on the moral gray area after all. It's just that Angel always has to fix his mistakes, to the point of sometimes causing more, and to take on the world by himself, which naturally backfires. I think he's a good person though, I respect him and I don't believe he does it to control people. On the other hand, it's hard for him and for Buffy to relinquish the power and control they have that comes with their job. I think I would make a lot of the mistakes he made. Hope that wasn't a confusing answer 😉

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Not sure about this. They did try to help him, btu could only do so much. It was about him wanting to be helped or not as the case maybe. He was their boss don't forget and can be quite stuborn. I don't put much blame on Cordy, Wes and Gunn.

Not sure if you care or not, but I recently rewatched some Angel season 2 episodes and I've changed my opinion on the AI team. I agree with you now. Angel was beyond reason, I had underestimated how much, and Cordy and Wes did their best to help him. I think they were all friends, their relationship went beyond employer/employee, but when Angel wants to get things his way he pulls the boss card. He threatened his friends and disrespected them, I would have done the same thing in their place.
Bottom line, I don't think they knew, understood or had a strong enough connection with Angel in order to be able to help him, to get to him. Plus, he didn't want help at all.

 

[Mr Trick]

Not sure if you care or not, but I recently rewatched some Angel season 2 episodes and I've changed my opinion on the AI team. I agree with you now. Angel was beyond reason, I had underestimated how much, and Cordy and Wes did their best to help him. I think they were all friends, their relationship went beyond employer/employee, but when Angel wants to get things his way he pulls the boss card. He threatened his friends and disrespected them, I would have done the same thing in their place.
Bottom line, I don't think they knew, understood or had a strong enough connection with Angel in order to be able to help him, to get to him. Plus, he didn't want help at all.

Thank-you for telling me. No, its fine you expressed your original view in a very interesting way. One of the beauty of these shows are how they are open to multple readings and that your feelings can change over time.🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So what do you think? From his perspective, would he call it love?

Can I be honest? I think there are only a few people Angel really loves: Buffy, Conner, and Faith.
We know he never loved Darla.
He obviously cares deeply for Spike, but I couldn't call it love.
Connor for obvious reasons.
Why Faith? Angel loves her. I have no doubt. They understand and accept each other. There is a emotional connection there. Now that said, I don't read Angel and Faith, so I don't know if their bond has developed into anything romantic as well.

Lastly, Cordelia. He calls her his dearest friend, and if they had been given more time, I'm sure it would have turned into real love.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Can I be honest? I think there are only a few people Angel really loves: Buffy, Conner, and Faith.
We know he never loved Darla.
He obviously cares deeply for Spike, but I couldn't call it love.
Connor for obvious reasons.
Why Faith? Angel loves her. I have no doubt. They understand and accept each other. There is a emotional connection there. Now that said, I don't read Angel and Faith, so I don't know if their bond has developed into anything romantic as well.

Lastly, Cordelia. He calls her his dearest friend, and if they had been given more time, I'm sure it would have turned into real love.

I actually agree with you on everything but the Faith part. On the show there's nothing there that indicates love. If you think he loves Faith on the show, then he also loves all of the AI team. I mean, there is a connection between Faith and Angel like you said, but it's not love. On the comics though, I don't know since I don't read them. I do know there's nothing romantic between them, thankfully.