Did Buffy love Spike?

[Pulse]

I think Buffy loved Spike. To be honest i cannot imagine Buffy growing old with anyone, but I think it would be more likely Spike than Angel

 

[Ysma]

I agree, I think Buffy did loved Spike. But with Angel, he's always in her heart.

 

[Raye]

Response to palabravampiress

If you don't think this is about who loved who more, then why are you defending the Spike/Buffy relationship so fiercely? LOL

I liked each of Buffy's relationships for very different reasons. And I have experienced each kind of love myself - that first true love like with Angel, that normal safe kind of love like with Riley, and that hot and heavy kind of thing like with Spike. In my experience, the one that has always stood out above the rest is the first true love one - the rest pale in comparison lol.

And Buffy never says it's love. Never. She says it at the end, to which Spike responds with "No you don't, but thanks for saying it." And she does not argue with him, proving that she does not.

And bringing Angelus into it is hardly fair. He is not Angel at all and Angel should not be punished for his crimes. Otherwise, Spike should be punished for his stuff from when he didn't have a soul... After all, how do you try to rape someone if you love them? I don't want to get into all that stuff, but seriously, Angelus and the rape thing with Spike should both be disregarded in this discussion as neither involved souls in the first place...

I simply don't believe Buffy loved Spike. I believe he loved her, even more than he loved Drusilla. But she never gave it back, she always held it back since Angel 🙂

 

[Kana]

The thing I find funny is that Angel, Riley and Spike all put words in Buffy's mouth.

Riley:

He said that Buffy didn't love him. She admitted only that she could have opened up to him more, but never did she say in hindsight that she never loved him.

Spike:

Spike said the infamous "No you don't" line but again, Buffy never actually agreed with this statement, it was his assumption.

Angel:

Angel assumed he was getting the brush off for Spike in Chosen when she told him she wanted him to work on the second front. She actually said he's not getting the brush off.


I think this is sometimes what 'shipper's do. They place words in the characters' mouths to make it fit their theory. I've never heard Buffy say that she loves Spike/Riley/Angel the most. I've never, subsequent to Chosen, heard her say she didn't love Spike, Angel or Riley respectively. Nor did she say her relationship with Angel simply highschool naivity, nor did she say her affair with Spike simply about distructive passion etc. Anything else as far as I'm concerned is more what I want to believe rather than what is fact...

 

[Raye]

"Anything else as far as I'm concerned is more what I want to believe rather than what is fact..." - Kana

Ok, I have to reluctantly agree with you on that point. I think that's what's so fantastic about the way Joss writes Buffy. He has always been very careful to leave it up to the viewer to believe what they want. This is why he leaves most storylines and relationships up to the viewers' own interpretation.

As a Bangel shipper, I watch that end scene with Buffy and Spike when she says she loves him and he says she doesn't. I see that as Buffy not disagreeing with him so she doesn't love him.
A Spike shipper sees it as she meant it and he wouldn't accept it.

So as for who Buffy ends up with, Joss wouldn't say either way the entire time and even in the last episode...
He wanted each and every fan to believe in the ending they wanted...
I wouldn't want it any other way... 🙂

 

[T.I.P]

I think she did 'love' him but i dont think she was 'in' love with him. Not like the way she loved Angel.
All those times in s6 when she was telling Spike that its never gonna happen, imo, she was just
in denial. She just couldnt admit she loved him, i mean, her friends would never approve.
She just thought she could never love someone like Spike, with his attitude and history, but thats when she
discovered that you dont pick and choose who you love, it just happens.

 

[Lillie]

I don't think she ever loved spike, she had an understanding for him though and they we're kind of always on the same page. Understood each other in a special way, but I would say no to love!
(I'm a huuuge Bangel fan though)

 

[angeldarla]

well i dont think buffy loved spike as she loved angel. its complicated, i think she just wanted to have fun and to forget about all the problems. its a new different world for her and I guess she just wanted to stay dead and in heaven. but she could'nt so she had to enjoy the has, and spike was part of the fun. if it was angel dying in the hellmouth i dont think she could bare the lost. so in my opinion she didnt love him

 

[palabravampiress]

I don't know why I feel such a need to defend this ship. I don't think Buffy and Spike are endgame. I'm a Buffy/Xander shipper for that. But I'm still a Spuffy in that I feel that what happened between them was important and meaningful and definitely qualifies as love.

I guess I just get annoyed by all of those die hard Bangel fans compare Spuffy to Bangel, list all of the ways in which it is not like Bangel (ignoring the positives of Spuffy, the negatives of Bangel, and the ways in which it is like Bangel), and so conclude that it wasn't love. That just seems like stacking the deck to me. I mean, it wasn't Bangel. But why does it have to be Bangel in order to be love? Why does she have to love Spike in the exact same way that she loved Angel for it to be love? That doesn't apply to real people, so why does it apply to Buffy? I think that's very limited and not fair to our heroine. I think there is room in her heart for Spike, just as there is room in her heart for Joyce, Giles, Dawn, Xander, Willow, Angel, Riley, etc. etc. I don't think it's at all fair to say she only gets her first love or that only her first love counts. Her first love was cursed; it wasn't all that and a bag of chips! I honestly don't think she's found "the one," yet. Maybe she never will. But that doesn't mean that the other loves in her life are somehow less than love. Buffy's got room in her heart for Angel and Spike and whoever else comes along and touches her heart in some lasting, important way.

I don't think Spuffy was love because of the ways in which it was like or unlike Bangel. In the end, I think Spuffy was love because Buffy said it was. I think Spuffy was love because of the way it ultimately strengthened both characters. I think it was love because of the way in which they both bared their souls and shared something meaningful that changed them both for the better. I don't think they're endgame. I don't think they're like Bangel. But that doesn't mean it wasn't love.

 

[Raye]

I agree with most of that - except for the part where Buffy says it was love. The only time she said she loved him, he replied with, "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it." She did not argue with this either, she kept her mouth shut. In my opinion, this means she didn't love him and was only saying it cause she knew he'd wanted to hear it for so long and he was about to die... so why not make him feel better in his last moments... Also disagree about the Buffy/Xander stuff... ew lol.

Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love... 🙂

 

[percepto girl]

Oh my. I don't agree with what you've written, but I'm only going to concentrate on this:

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

That is just completely wrong reasoning, I'm sorry. It's like saying that Willow wasn't the same Willow after she became bad. Buffy has ALWAYS been Buffy; she changed, yes, but she was still herself. That much was even established in Dead Things (I believe) when she thought that she'd come back wrong and it turned out she didn't - she wasn't 'wrong', she was depressed. The period from her resurrection to the series finale is such an important part in Buffy's development as a person that I cannot accept it being dismissed as 'not being real'.

My two cents.

 

[Tranquillity]

I avoided this discussion for so long....

Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love...

Does Spike rejecting the words make them not true? I don't think so, I think it says more about Spike's state of mind than Buffy's. I maintain that Buffy is not the kind of character who would say 'meaningless nothings' just to make someone feel better, even in the face of death. OK, so Buffy didn't argue with him - well, can you blame her; the hellmouth was caving in and she knows what it means to give your life for a greater purpose (as in The Gift), she respects that. I think her not arguing shows that she respected Spike and what he was doing not that she didn't love him. Earlier in the season in 'Him' the message came through loud and clear that 'no guy was worth dying for' so it is hardly surprising she doesn't stick around to be crushed to death beside the man she loves - god, wouldn't that be melodramatic (and it 'ain't my idea of love...)

Also, you can't judge a statement made at the end of season seven (as in "I Love You") just with season six evidence - that's not fair and of course it would be difficult to prove the case of love!

When did they treat each other badly? Season six, yes but in season seven all I saw was progressive development in their relationship that saw Buffy forgive, help, believe in and trust in Spike. Their was friendship, there was affection, there was mutual trust and respect. There was also the odd angry word but those were few and far between and all for the purpose of getting Spike to be a better man, pushing him along on his journey to championhood, when he thinks he's nothing but a piece of crap.

When did Buffy treat him like a 'conveinience'? Season six, yes, but in season seven she relied on him - Giles sees it, Buffy says it, and I don't think its out of conveinience at all.

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

Splainey???

For me, love is about actions. Like the old saying says - 'actions speak louder than words'. It is possible say words and then not back them up with actions or you can show love through actions. Maybe this works for me because i am not the sort who says 'i love you' a lot but i know for a fact that my kids and husband are in no doubt that i love them because of the relationship we have. It is not the words that matter - it is the actions. And when i look at Buffy and Spike in season seven I see love in action. I see forgiveness and concern and trust and belief and freindship and companionship and respect and....LOVE.

Buffy says the words, I believe her.

 

[white avenger]

Judging ONLY from the relationship between Buffy and Spike in Season 7, ruling out everything that had gone on in the past between them, judging both Spike AND Buffy as "changed" people (Spike with his soul, Buffy no longer completely devastated by being torn out of heaven by her friends), I would say that love most definitely developed between the two. Given another season or two, I honestly believe that the two would have been full time, out in the open, madly, sloppily, and completely unashamedly in love and to hell with what Giles, Xander, or anyone else thought about it. But I really don't think that they were all the way there at the end of Season 7.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Does Spike rejecting the words make them not true? I don't think so, I think it says more about Spike's state of mind than Buffy's. I maintain that Buffy is not the kind of character who would say 'meaningless nothings' just to make someone feel better, even in the face of death. OK, so Buffy didn't argue with him - well, can you blame her; the hellmouth was caving in and she knows what it means to give your life for a greater purpose (as in The Gift), she respects that. I think her not arguing shows that she respected Spike and what he was doing not that she didn't love him. Earlier in the season in 'Him' the message came through loud and clear that 'no guy was worth dying for' so it is hardly surprising she doesn't stick around to be crushed to death beside the man she loves - god, wouldn't that be melodramatic (and it 'ain't my idea of love...)
[...]
Buffy says the words, I believe her.

I absolutely agree on this. Even if she had had the time to start an argument (with the Hellmouth collapsing and Sunnydale going "holey"), it would have shown lack of repect for the sacrifice Spike was making. You don't start arguing with someone who's busy with doing the noblest deed of his whole existence - that would be awfully immature (while I could imagine an early season Buffy doing it, Leader!Buffy of S7 I could not).

I'm not even entirely sure that Spike meant the "no you don't" part. Firstly, it's just so "Spikey" making a bantery quip even in a moment like this; and second, he probably was intent on shooing Buffy away from the collapsing area as quickly as possible. Both of them knew that the ultimate danger zone is not the right time and place for a long, honest, emotional heart-to-heart - and this short dialogue is, IMO, their way of acknowledging it. It's more Spike's personality than anything else that made this scene different from the key scene of "Becoming II", I could otherwise have imagined it much the same.

 

[Raye]

Ok, I had to reply again lol.
I know you don't agree about the Buffy/Spike love stuff, but I am stating my opinion just as you are stating yours.
You say that apparently Buffy didn't argue because the hellmouth was collapsing and so on, but that is simply your hope for what was happening - based on no facts whatsoever, and neither are mine. Mine is opinion and I have stressed on that from the beginning. Now I am well aware this site is overtaken by Spuffy lovers lol, but I aint changing my opinions because others are just as passionate as I am about our couples lol.

I believe Buffy would say she loved him even if she didn't quite know in herself whether it was true or not. And I do believe Spike meant it when he said she didn't - the look on his face was, in my opinion, quite obvious.
She had time to argue with him, to say yes, I do love you! But she didn't, she just held his hand and then ran out. And I did not say for one moment she should've stayed there and died with him!

And yes, season 7 didn't have anywhere near as much bad stuff between them. Their relationship did grow, but I still don't believe it could ever be love.
Mainly because of their history.

And how can you ask me to explain what I meant about Buffy changing after she died? Everyone knows she did. She became darker, not quite the perfect 'good' champion she always was before. She darkened, which is what opened her up to the Spike relationship in the first place.

Yes, love is about actions. I don't say it a lot either, to anyone! And yes, Spike showed his love extraordinarily, but once again in my opinion, Buffy didn't.

Buffy says the words, Spike disagrees, Buffy doesn't argue, I believe Spike 🙂

 

[Buffanator]

She had time to argue with him, to say yes, I do love you! But she didn't, she just held his hand and then ran out.

I respect your opinion, because you're right - we all are stating *our opinions*... but IMHO you have completely gone "shirty" if you truly believe she had TIME to stand there & argue with him about her confession of love.

My arguement here has nothing to do with the fact that I am a Spuffy shipper (I was also a Bangel shipper... LOL... I'm both!-how weird is that?) - it has to do with the timing of the event that was actually taking place at that particular moment. FACT: Spike had risen above his evil nature & SOUGHT OUT his soul. He WANTED IT, even when he WAS evil. FACT: Angel - when he was Angelus - made it perfectly clear that he hated his "filthy soul" & fought to keep the "Angel" part of him deeply buried. Loving Buffy actually CHANGED Spike. It made him WANT to be a better man - and what is love if not that? Love changes you.

When Spike said "No you don't, but thanks for sayin' it" my understanding was that he WAS hurrying Buffy out of there - to save HER as well as the world. After all, there was that *ONE MOMENT* when they looked at each other & she had those tears in her eyes, & for just ONE MOMENT I think he did think about running out with her... but he couldn't. He had a job to do, and he WAS the champion for that brief moment in time. Spike FINALLY respected HIMSELF & trusted himself to do what was right; what needed to be done.

Another point: when Giles said "What did this?" and Buffy replied "Spike" - the look on her face was one of pride. She felt pride in Spike for being the champion she knew he could be. Remember when Buffy told Giles "he can be a good man; I know it" ? Well, he was. In the end; he was.

Plus that blonde chick that had heart failure & died... she told Spike "Someday, she'll tell you." It all fits rather nicely when you look at it from several episodes worth of dialogue. 😀

 

[Washburne]

Plus that blonde chick that had heart failure & died... she told Spike "Someday, she'll tell you." It all fits rather nicely when you look at it from several episodes worth of dialogue. 😀

She did, and of course it´s the way it was supposed to be played out. But saying it doesn´t mean she actually means it. That´s why we can have this discussion. It´s not like it´s unheard of that guys (mostly) tell girls they love her so they can have what they want.

In my opinion it´s like this:
Does Buffy love Spike? Yes
Is it the same way as with puppy love Angel? Of course not

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

hmm i actually kind of agree with "She could have protested what he said" thing. it doesnt take more than acouple of seconds to do so, if we are being so literal with time. But does it mean she knows he was right, or does it mean that she is secure enough that she loved him that she didn't feel the need to defend her case?

I don't know how i feel about the whole thing. I'm not sure it was the romantic love she had with Angel, i do think she loved him as a person, which is amazing for Spike seeing that for a long time she just saw him as a "thing". Now she was acknowledging he was a PERSON, and a good one at that, someone who was deserving of love.

 

[Tranquillity]

It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...

And how can you ask me to explain what I meant about Buffy changing after she died? Everyone knows she did. She became darker, not quite the perfect 'good' champion she always was before. She darkened, which is what opened her up to the Spike relationship in the first place.

I just found the first statement a bit weird - It says she's not the 'real' buffy so therefore it wasn't love. I understand that she changed after she came back from the dead but I don't understand how this precludes her from loving ever again.

And I do believe Spike meant it when he said she didn't - the look on his face was, in my opinion, quite obvious.

I agree with you, i don't think Spike believed it - but the fact that he doesn't believe it doesn't make Buffy's words untrue.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I always read the "No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" like I read Han Solo's "I know" after Leah told him she loved him. It was entirely in character, kept the moment from being too sloppily cheesy (like Cheez Wiz), and to truly understand his intentions, you have to look at his face.