Did Buffy love Spike?

[palabravampiress]

We actually had a thread about that, groovygarden, but I can't find it anymore. Does anyone know where it went?

Anyway, I pretty much agreed with your take on it. I thought that since his pretty, sparkly soul took down Hell the next day, it meant that he had been forgiven. And if you're a poet who does wrong, goes on a quest of redemption, survives the trials, and comes back victorious, yet humble and facing almost certain death in your next battle, what do you get to make the whole thing something other than depressing? The girl, of course. I said it better in that other thread, though.

 

[Kana]

At first I felt that if they'd slept togther, it would miss the point of the moment but then I realised that whether they slept togther or not is irrelevant. I think Buffy gave herself to Spike in a way she's never done. Whether it was holding hands or more that was really the key. She may have slept with him but the boundaries she's often put up with him were down for the first time that was more than Spike could have asked for.

 

[Dancing man]

I think Buffy loved Spike but her love for Angel was greater, also I think she was denying herself in a fools hope that her and Angel could get back togther in a realistic circumstance. I dont think Buffy Truly loved Spike, she didnt allow herself to probaly to avoid pain and loss. I reckon she was also a bit annoyed she had fallen for a vampire again.

 

[palabravampiress]

A lot of people make that argument, Dancing man. They say she loved him, but not "truly." What does that mean, exactly? If you follow the logic there, if you don't have true love what you have must be false love. Is that even possible?

What I see as the main difference between Bangel and Spuffy, at least from Buffy's POV, is that Buffy loved Angel without reservation or restraint. It was an all consuming, no holds barred kind of love. It was also incredibly naive, as a lot of that relationship was built on Buffy's desire to pretend that she was a normal girl and that Angel was a normal boy when, really, they were anything but. The downfall of that relationship was, in many ways, also what made it great: the way they romanticized everything and put their love above all else.

Partially as a result of that experience, she was more careful and more reluctant in all of her future relationships. The only other time she tried to jump in head first again was with Parker, and she got burned again. It was the same story, only in human terms: when you sleep with a gentleman at night, you wake up next to a jerk in the morning. With Spike, she took off the rose-colored glasses, called a Spade a Spade, and was extra careful to refrain from getting entangled again. She went too far in the opposite direction never for even an instant letting herself or Spike forget or romanticize the fact that they were first and foremost slayer and vampire. They were never just woman and man, never just Buffy and Spike. Disaster ensued. The relationship fell apart.

What I see here are two very similar relationships with very similar issues. Both fell apart, though, at least in part because of two equally extreme and yet opposite approaches. Buffy went into the relationship with Angel having faith in the belief that everything would work itself out. She went into the relationship with Spike having faith in the belief that nothing would ever work itself out. I'm not really sure the word "true" describes Buffy's perception of either of those relationships. In fact, if I were going to have to pick "True" or "False" for both relationships, I'd probably call both "False," since I don't think Buffy allowed herself to think of either relationship in a very honest, realistic fashion.

But here is where things get tricky: Spike went out and earned a second chance. Buffy called a spade a spade with Spike, so he went out and became something different. He changed. He became a man, or as close to one as he could become. Angel saw an insurmountable obstacle and left; Spike saw that same obstacle and rewrote the script. In season seven, Buffy didn't have any preconceived notions or expectations. She was very careful never to label their relationship. When she knew how she felt, she said so (Ex: "I believe in you"). When she didn't, she was honest about that, too (Ex: when she said she just wasn't ready for him to be gone). She was honest, sometimes brutally so, such as when she told him that he was weak and that she needed warrior Spike back. In the end, she said she loved him. If any of Buffy's loves are going to be considered "True," I think it should be this second-go-round with Spike. It was the only one that I saw as honest.

That's why, for me, the designation of Angel as Buffy's one "true" love simply doesn't hold water. But maybe it means something different for those who do see Angel as Buffy's true love. So what does that term mean for you?

 

[girlunstrung]

I think Buffy ended up loving Spike, yes, but not quite... being in love with him. Not in the same life-changing, earth-shattering way as she loved Angel. I think Spike's and her "relationship" was much more mature, anyway, due to the fact that when her and Angel got involved she was an ickle teenager.

 

[Spikes FFL]

Everyone has some pretty intense and incredible insights into Spuffy.

I am a Spuffy lover, for all the same reasons as everyone else... But did Buffy really love Spike?

I believe she did. And I agree with Palabravampiress, in that Angel was a pure love for Buffy, it was young and naive and pure. Everything was wonderful, until it wasn't. With Spike, everything was more mature. Buffy had grown up quite a bit since Bangel, and Spike made her see things more clearly. She was a Slayer, he was a vampire... It can be no other way. The world is dark, and things get scary, and you can't just pretend that you are normal when you're not. You can't pretend that your "cradle-robbing, creature of the night boyfriend" (What's My Line...Part 1?) is just some dreamy guy that you're gonna spend the rest of your life together.

Spike made all of that clear. Buffy had no expectations of Spike. He was a vampire. He was evil. And that's it. Spike went out of his way to change himself to be "good enough"... to be worth of Buffy, and I think she could sense that, and opened herself up a little more. In the beginning, it was all about the "naughty," but by Buffy saving Spike's life in "Lies My Parents Told Me" she started to accept more that Spike might be something worth more than just "naughty" time.

In "Chosen," I think Buffy was finally admitting to herself and to Spike that she loved him. I think Spike did believe her, but was letting her off the hook. Leaving her open to find another love and not mourn over him once he saves the world. He wanted to go out a hero, and Buffy to be proud of him, rather than sad that she lost a love.

But yes. Buffy did love Spike. She wasn't where she was with Angel, and probably never would be. There are different levels and different kinds, and Buffy felt something different for Spike. It was love... it evolved into love.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I personally don't believe she did love Spike. I think she cared about him a lot but it was never love, or at least the romantic kind of love she shared with Angel and I think could have had with Riley.

The relationship between Buffy and Spike was always fairly unequal in the fact that he'd always care more about her than she ever could in return towards him. I think it was Kana who raised an interesting point on another forum, that Spike and Harmony share a moment in 'Harms Way' where Spike comes to the realisation, his relationship with Buffy was a lot like his relationship with Harmony. Only that this time Spike was in Harmony's place.

I tend to view Buffy's three romantic relationships, as each having their own purpose in the series. I always viewed Buffy/Angel as the big eternal love, the Buffy/Riley relationship as the normal everyday relationship, and Buffy/Spike as a representation of a relationship where as much as someone may want to love the other, they can't. I view each relationship as a representation of a different kind of relationship one can have.

I know there's a strong argument out there that Spuffy was a love that 'evolved' but I think there's a point where if it's that hard for it to evolve, then it can't be that strong. It's just how I feel about their relationship. I most certainly don't think Buffy loved Spike in season six, and pushing her and trying to convince her that she did, as Spike did, did nothing but probably deter her. And if she can't say it in season seven all year, if for some reason she doesn't want to admit it or is ashamed to admit it, then it can't mean that much to her.

Of course I have other reasons as well. I think the episode in 'End of Days' is a good example of Buffy just not being able to love him. She says she was with him there in 'Touched' but when he asks her what it means she asks "does it have to mean something?" That's just not the response I believe she would have gave if she wanted to be in a relationship with Spike or even love him. She then tries to back peddle with "maybe after-" but it's too late by that point, I think that's when Spike got the picture.

I just think her ability to express her feelings towards Angel wasn't necessarily a 'naivety' or something she 'outgrew' because she does it in later seasons as well. All year she doesn't want to get to close to Spike, and as soon as Angel returns in 'Chosen' she kisses him. And with Angel she was able to be open enough to talk about needing sometime being Buffy, whereas she never said that to Spike.

It's just my opinion but I don't think she was ever truly invested in Spike enough to love him. And I think that's fine, I don't think everyone relationship should be about love, I actually think it works best for Spuffy not to be and Bangel to be, they represent something different for me.

 

[palabravampiress]

I disagree with your opinion, but it was well-argued and I do respect it.

I CAN see each of those relationships as representing three different types of relationships that people can have. The part that confuses me is the part in which you believe that if you have to work for it, it's not love. I don't think love just happens. I don't thing it's either there or it isn't. I think you have to build it. I sort of feel the opposite. If it doesn't evolve, if it just sort of appears, then how do you know it's love?

I guess I feel that way because, while I have definitely been in love, (and still am) I have never been in the Bangel kind of love. The only kind of love that ever worked with me was the kind that was hard and complicated and took a long time to evolve from friendship into something more and then, finally, into love.

It's not the same for everybody. Some people fall in love at first sight. Some people fall in love after a couple of dates or after they sleep together or go through some big ordeal together. Me? It takes all of that, plus friendship and years. I think that's what Buffy's different relationships represent: not love, almost love, and non-love, but three different ways in which people fall in love. It can be all whirlwind and intense, like it was with Angel. It can be sweet and mundane, like it was with Riley. It can also be based on friendship and hard won, like it was with Spike. I think there are a lot more ways out there, too. Really, I think love is a terribly difficult thing to describe. It's sort of like porn; I "know it when I see it." lol. And I saw it with Buffy/Spike.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I disagree with your opinion, but it was well-argued and I do respect it.

Thanks, you too 🙂

The part that confuses me is the part in which you believe that if you have to work for it, it's not love.

Sorry I don't think I articulated my point well enough, I can see why you'd have gotten that perception from my post. I don't have a problem with people working for their relationship. But I feel to the extent their love had to be 'worked on' in that relationship, to me it felt as if it shouldn't be that hard.

I also think there is a difference between working on a relationship, and working on loving someone. I think the latter should come on far easier than the former, a relationship does take work, but it should be much easier to love someone. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of having to 'work' on loving someone, if those feelings aren't there, they just aren't. At least IMO.

I guess I feel that way because, while I have definitely been in love, (and still am) I have never been in the Bangel kind of love. The only kind of love that ever worked with me was the kind that was hard and complicated and took a long time to evolve from friendship into something more and then, finally, into love.

I understand this and I'm actually in a relationship when I started off as friends with my girlfriend, so I can see what you mean. 🙂

But to me, I never felt as if the Buffy/Spike dynamic developed in that way. He asks her in 'Dead Things' "do you even like me?" in which she replies "sometimes." And even Spike acknowledges that the reason she was talking to him in the first place during season six was because, "a whisper in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real." I don't think they ever truly were friends.

It sounds like a really harsh thing to say, and I don't mean it to be, but IMO it felt as if Buffy was slowly having to be worn down and grated on until finally she could love Spike. And I don't feel it should take so much effort or be so complicated for her.

I'm still unsure of why exactly if she did love him, she'd feel so ashamed or try so hard not to. What about Spike did Buffy not want to love? Or if she did why was she so ashamed to express it? She's never had that problem before if she feels love. With Angel she was fine with expressing it, and expresses herself again in 'Chosen' with the kiss. And I don't think it has to do with being mature or an adult, she was an adult still in 'Chosen' with Angel, and Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya were all adults when they were able to express their love for one another.

It's sort of like porn; I "know it when I see it." lol. And I saw it with Buffy/Spike.

Heh. I saw porn with Buffy/Spike too! lol, only kidding! :lmao:

I think it's always going to be open for interpretation because Joss left it ambiguous. I know some fans like myself who look at their final scene together in 'Chosen' and interpret Sarah's delivery of "I love you" as if she didn't mean it, that's how she sold it to me. When Spike says "No you don't but thanks for saying it" we interpret that as the final statement on their relationship, he's finally come to accept it, he's grown and seen the truth with his soul. We see the look they share before their hands break a part as a look of understanding.

But there's others like yourself who interpret it very differently, I think I've seen on these boards people believing Spike was trying to let her off the hook, I personally don't agree with that because he kept up the opinion she didn't love him throughout Ats with, "I know I don't have a shot with her ok!" and not denying Angel's "that's why Buffy never really loved you because you weren't me" but it's fine we all have these different interpretations of the scene. I personally believe that was Joss' intention as well.

Though in season 8 if we find out Buffy did love him, then I'll have no problem changing my opinion 🙂

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Oooh. I do have a theory about the why Buffy had to be grated on and worn down thing. And here it is:

I see the season 7 episode Get it Done as a major turning point in the Spike/Buffy relationship.

Especially in seasons 6 and 7, Buffy and Spike function as foils. In season 6, Spike was to Buffy what Drusilla and Faith had been in previous seasons. They were her "shadows," metaphorical manifestations of the dark side of her psyche. Buffy spent much of her life as the slayer running from and/or denying that side of her even though, as we discover in the season 7's Get It Done, (the episode in which the Shadow Men reveal the origin of the slayer's power) it is Buffy's dark/demon side that gives her the added strength to fight the dark forces of evil. It's a fight fire with fire thing. I don't think it is coincidence that, in that same episode, Buffy rather harshly tells Spike that she needs that side of him -- the side that he's been denying ever since he got his soul back and the side that she spent all of season six rejecting and hating. In that episode, Buffy comes to terms with, accepts, and values her demon nature... and Spike's. They both come to terms with the fact that demon power does not have to be inherently bad or evil; when used for good, it can be good. Only by accepting that can Buffy begin to fully integrate her shadow (Spike) without fear or disgust.

I'll stick with the Jungian psychology for a little while longer and say that, for Spike, Buffy is his “anima,” or true inner self. In the male, the anima is expressed in the feminine, hence his having Buffy as his foil. This is different from the persona that Spike shows the world. Instead, the anima is the unconscious essence of an individual. Among the things that never changed in Spike, even in his days as a human, were his poet's sensibilities and his capacity for love. His true nature is that of a kind, loving, creative, soul-glowy goodness sort of individual. His true nature is good. So while he is a metaphorical manifestation of her dark side, she is a metaphorical manifestation of his light side. As the attempted rape incident proved, Spike's love for Buffy was unable to come to fruition as long as he was "stuck" in his dark side. He needed his light side. Getting his soul was a pivotal moment. It enabled him to reintegrate his anima. He still needed Get it Done, though, so that he could learn to incorporate both parts of his psyche, not just the light side. He also had to get free of his trigger so that he could realize that he had the power, not the demon or the First or anything evil, and that he could do good with that power.

Basically, before Buffy and Spike could accept one another, they had each to accept themselves. Because they couldn't do this until season 7, their love did not come to fruition until season 7. They each represented opposite and equal aspects of the other. According to my theory, Buffy couldn't love Spike until she could love herself, including the part of herself that Spike represented. Make sense?

 

[Joyce Summers]

According to my theory, Buffy couldn't love Spike until she could love herself, including the part of herself that Spike represented. Make sense?

Very eloquently and excellently put. I totally agree.

(This post is short because it WAS going to be a karma comment but you were the last person I karmafied so...karma post, haha)

 

[Vampmogs2]

Buffy spent much of her life as the slayer running from and/or denying that side of her even though, as we discover in the season 7's Get It Done, (the episode in which the Shadow Men reveal the origin of the slayer's power) it is Buffy's dark/demon side that gives her the added strength to fight the dark forces of evil

But doesn't Buffy reject that side of her in that episode, choosing to turn down more power from the demon essence in favour for her humanity?

She learns where her power originated from, but I don't think she's ever accepted the idea she's inherently dark. In 'The Long Way Home' during her dream with Xander she says "I'm afraid of the dark" in which Xander replies, "Buffy you are the dark." She's yet to accept that side of her IMO, ultimately rejecting it rather than embracing it in 'Get It Done.' I'd go as far to say she still fears it as she says "that's what I meant" to Xander, before being sucked out of the window.

I still think the dark side of her power isn't fully explored yet. I think 'Get It Done' raises the question of wether or not it was the power that was inherently dark, or those using that power. We know there's so many shades of grey in the verse when it comes to demons, there's so much evidence of this in such characters as Lorne and Angel. We were never told if that demon's essence was actually 'dark' for all we know it was a good demon who was just as pure as Lorne, or just like Cordelia become. The darkness came from how it was forced into the first slayer against her will, by *men* who chained her to the floor.

At the end of the day power is just power, it only becomes dark when one uses that power or exploits ones power for evil purpose.

I like your theory but if Spike did still represent Buffy's dark side or she needed to embrace it, I just don't feel like 'Get It Done' is the best example of this when she rejects more power from this dark source, in favour for her humanity.

 

[SlayerGirl01]

I say yes in a way she did love him but a different kind of love to Angel.

those 2 will always be my fav couple!

 

[BuffyBloke]

I don't think she really did love spike as much as did Angel. I think for her if it was love, it wasn't love that she could see having like she did with Angel. I think over season 6 & 7 she came to have strong feelings for him but she definetly put up a front so no one else could see it.

That's what I think anyway. Sorry it's short, I'm stuck with the flue lol.

 

[Raye]

No, I don't believe she did.

I am a Bangel fan, pure and simple. And their love was the true one. They were soul mates in the purest sense of the word, that kind of first love that you never get over. They would've done anything for each other and would never have hurt each other the way Spuffy did...

And the argument that Angel left and Spike didn't doesn't hold up. Angel knew they couldn't be together without hurting each other, so he made the ultimate sacrifice and left her... Whereas Spike was too selfish to do that, he tried to take her down with him instead...

Buffy and Spike did have some incredible passion in a few eps, but they had darker feelings for each other. They were definitely not soul mates, they hurt each other constantly, they were mean to each other... I don't think this makes their feelings more honest or true or whatever just because they allowed each other to see all aspects of themselves, it just means to me that they didn't care if the other person saw them as they truly were because the deep feelings, as with Bangel, were not there. It was more about gratification with Spuffy.

I do think Spike loved Buffy, as bad as he was at it... But no, I don't believe Buffy loved Spike. And I believe this was cemented in when she tells him she loves him at the end, he says no, you don't, and she doesn't argue with that statement at all...

Anyway, just my two cents 🙂

 

[palabravampiress]

^ See last page re: what is true love?

I don't think this is about Angel. Love isn't an either/or thing. It makes no sense to argue that Buffy loved Angel truly madly deeply once upon a time ago and Spike was different, so she couldn't have loved him. Didn't primal slayer babe say Buffy was "full of love?" I'm not willing to doom the girl to teen angst love forever. I mean, Angel, Riley, and Spike are out of the picture in the comics. Does that mean that Buffy can never love again for as long as the Angel and Buffy comics are separated? No! I'll give her a shot. Maybe she'll fall for Satsu or Xander or Dracula for all I know. She says it was love. They shared some intense stuff, especially in season 7. I'll take her word for it and not doom her to her high school love forever.

I'm also not convinced that comparing the feelings that Buffy and Spike shared with those shared between Bangel is really the most unbiased reasoning. I don't wanna use Bangel as the basis for defining what love means to Buffy and compare all future lovers to that so that only Bangel can measure up. That's sort of stacking the deck. If you're going to ask whether or not Buffy loved Spike, I think the answers have to come from within the Spuffy relationship, not from listing all of the negative ways in which Spuffy differs from Bangel (without listing the positives). That's cheating. I think previous relationships are relevant only to the extent that they provide insight.

Speaking of insight, Angel can provide tons of insight into the Spike/Buffy relationship... especially if you look at the Angel/Drusilla/Spike triangle or even the Angel/Spike dynamic. But, again, if you close your eyes to Angelus (who is a part of Angel, albeit a suppressed one) and to anything dark in Bangel (like his tendency to treat Buffy like a kid) and then only look at anything dark when it comes to Spuffy, you're only seeing the part of the picture. Angel wasn't all good and Spike wasn't all bad. To say Spike had dark feelings for Buffy and Angel had light feelings, so one love is obviously superior not only stacks the deck from the beginning, but also fails to take into account a lot of the complexity that existed within both relationships.

I think they loved each other. But even if I didn't think Buffy and Spike loved each other, it wouldn't be because Buffy loved Angel. It would be because of what I saw in the Spuffy relationship.


P.S. Sorry if I come off as grumpy or combative. I'm all sick and sore throaty.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think that in the end, it was verified that Buffy had loved both Spike and Angel. But that does not mean that she could not find someone else to fall in love with. There is always the future.

 

[Buffanator]

Yes, I do believe Buffy loved Spike.

Love comes in many forms & fashions - it's not a one-size-fits-all emotion. She loved Angel intensely & completely (first love) and she loved Riley for his goodness and sweetness, and she loved Spike with that "oooohhhh-a-bad-boy!" kind of love. She got boinky with Angel so seldom, but when she did, it was smooth, easy, gentle.... "making love." With Riley, she was just learning her own way and getting more into what love and commitment & sex was all about.

With Spike - it was very lustful. Did they EVER "make love"? I saw it as just passionate no-holds-barred down & dirty & exciting & yummy sex. Buffy was brought up to be a good girl, but she had that badness (re: evil) in her - the demon side - the fighter. That is a throw-down kind of love that she couldn't have with Angel OR Riley. Spike was just bad enough to give it to her the way she wanted to "let go" - but she couldn't, because she was too busy "being good." With Spike, she could let out her bad side, and that is acceptance, and acceptance is what love is all about.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Yes, I do believe Buffy loved Spike.

Love comes in many forms & fashions - it's not a one-size-fits-all emotion. She loved Angel intensely & completely (first love) and she loved Riley for his goodness and sweetness, and she loved Spike with that "oooohhhh-a-bad-boy!" kind of love. She got boinky with Angel so seldom, but when she did, it was smooth, easy, gentle.... "making love." With Riley, she was just learning her own way and getting more into what love and commitment & sex was all about.

With Spike - it was very lustful. Did they EVER "make love"? I saw it as just passionate no-holds-barred down & dirty & exciting & yummy sex. Buffy was brought up to be a good girl, but she had that badness (re: evil) in her - the demon side - the fighter. That is a throw-down kind of love that she couldn't have with Angel OR Riley. Spike was just bad enough to give it to her the way she wanted to "let go" - but she couldn't, because she was too busy "being good." With Spike, she could let out her bad side, and that is acceptance, and acceptance is what love is all about.

I don't think that Buffy's feelings for Spike were all about lust. They certainly weren't in Season 7.

 

[Buffanator]

I don't think that Buffy's feelings for Spike were all about lust. They certainly weren't in Season 7.

Sorry - that's not what I meant. Let me try to explain better. Buffy's ABILITY to 'let go & feel all the passion' - wrong or not - she was able to do that with Spike. It was somehow "ok to be bad" because he was bad. She didn't have to explain herself; her actions. Spike didn't care; he wanted Buffy just the way she was - he even enjoyed when they fought. Remember his speech "...when I say I love you it's ...got nothing to do with me. It's about you, how you fight. How you try..." (that's not a direct quote, btw!)

Spike helped Buffy accept the darkest part of herself - and she loved him for that. But she just couldn't admit it to herself until the end. The tears in her eyes weren't just because Spike was dying & no longer going to be around, but also because the fact that he WAS doing it! -being a champion. He'd CHANGED. Truly changed. And so did she.