Did Buffy love Spike?

Well I think that Buffy did love Spike in the sense that hes a good man and a warrior not in a I love you way but more of a I respect and honour you for all the great things you have done , a warrior love almost is there such a thing???? (hehe)
 
^ What's the difference?

Not being snarky. I genuinely want to know. A big part of this debate sort of focuses on defining love and separating it into kinds.

To me, romantic love is a combination of friend love, family love, and lust. So when I see Buffy invite Spike into the family unit even when he doesn't deserve it, treat him as a confidante when her other friends have kicked her out, and wake up next to him in her lingerie the night before the big battle, then I kind of get the impression that she is declaring the romantic kind of love there in the end. To someone who has a different definition of love, however, something in mine might seem lacking. so that's why I want to know what "warrior love" would entail (obviously fighting of some sort) and how it would differ from "I love you" love.
 
Well I think that Buffy did love Spike in the sense that hes a good man and a warrior not in a I love you way but more of a I respect and honour you for all the great things you have done , a warrior love almost is there such a thing???? (hehe)

Sounds an awful lot like kyrumption to me 🙂
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Nice use of B'verse dialogue!
L
LorneyTunes
yup yup x
I really think w=that whether what they said is true or not is irelevent, what really matters is the way they saud it, I mean, they could've said goodbye(which in a way, they did) and it wouldve been just as meaningful and this probably wont make any sense when post is coz my thoughts are all jumble-ey but I guess what I'm trying to say is it had the same degree of sadness as Angel, season 1's "I will remember you" (cannot begin to express how much i HATE that episode)
 
In the commentary for the "final night/fade to black" basement scene, Joss said that he wanted to leave it as ambiguous as possible as to just what actually happened between Spike and Buffy, and I believe that he continued that same tone through the final "I love you/No you don't..." scene. As has been pointed out, Spike could have taken the Han Solo tone and said simply, "I know," but Spike isn't Han Solo, and that answer simply isn't true to his character, any more than it would have been if he had said something like, "It's about time that you realized it. I've been trying to convince you of that for years." He could have said, "Three years of denial, and finally NOW you decide to tell me?! Talk about pi** poor timing!!" but that would have been the wrong tone for the moment, and, again, simply not what the new improved model Spike would say. What Spike DID say goes back to what he said almost exactly what he said two years earlier. "I know you'll never love me..." That was completely within character, especially now that, with a soul, he has finally realized just how much of a monster he actually had been.

"No, you don't, but thanks for saying it" was Spike's "I finally figured it out..." speech. He had at last found the job that he was meant to do, that he was the only one who could do, and he was saying, like Buffy said before, that he wanted her to live for him, just as she had told the gang to do for her. Ironically, Spike is the one who ends up in hell, instead of heaven, the way Buffy did, and he doesn't have anyone searching on his behalf for an Urn of Osiris.

Then again, he DOES have a former hell god who at one time had the power to travel between dimensions. If that power could be somehow restored, if only for a short while... Imagine an updated version of "As you were," with Spike showing up at Slayer Central unexpectedly, accompanied by a very possessive and protective Illyria, and toss Satsu into the brew just to add a little spice. (Potential for really great cat fight there!) Now, THAT would be one hell of an 8th Season finale and a lead in to Season 9, which would center on rescuing LA from hell.
 
Personally I think at that particular moment when she said "I love you" she meant it - prior to that she'd of considered the concept of loving Spike as a huge no-no.

Spike was making the ultimate sacrifice - his own immortal life. He'd already made his feelings known to any Big Bad's plans for the end of the world as we know it as there'd be no walking fast food for him and the other vamps.

Of course we know that Buffy and Spike slept together (lucky fella) and even though Buffy didn't acknowledge the fact until it accidentally came out we never heard her deny or confirm the fact (or did I miss that?) - but as we know (well, most of us anyway), love and sex aren't the same thing.
 
Ok I am watching episode 2 of angel s5 and I have to say that she did!!! 10 minutes made me a spuffy fan, I cried when I watched him die.....spikes fantastic!!
 
This is something that forever will be discussed between Bangel and Spuffy fans. Bangel fans will say she loved him, but not like she loves Angel. A different kind of love.

Spuffies will claim she did love him. Like love love. And if we look at the overall picture, Spuffies are right.
On the commentary Joss says Buffy should love him when she said it. Truly love him.
The first asked Buffy why she didn't sleep in her dead lover's arms. Highlight lover, and Buffy's reaction to that.
We also saw how she caressed Spike's arm while he was asleep. Buffy had gained her trust and love for Spike in the last couple of episodes.


So in the overall picture: She loved him.
 
D
DrusillaRox
biased at all?
So this is kinda long...

The Buffy/Spike dynamic is one that probably will be debated forever and ever and ever... you get the point. But instead of looking just at the couple as a unit... we have to focus on both parties involved... and how their characters have progressed.

Spike has always been a special case, when it came to being a vampire. He had more "humanity" without his soul than any vampire we've seen. Season Two and he arrives, not with a plan to end the world... but to save it and live in it because he *liked* humans. As a meal but *liked* them all the same. Buffy, circa Season 2, was teenage lovestruck by her Angelkins. She was developing the mature love she came to have for Angel and that, in some form, will always have for him. The dynamic between Buffy and Spike then wasn't anywhere near as combative/hostile as her interactions with "normal" vampires... it was more of a competition than a real rivalry.

Skip to Season 4, and Spike becomes a muzzled but still not wholly evil snarky male-form of Cordelia. Buffy and the gang feed him, keep him in blood and weatabix, and include him... so to speak... in the Scoobie happenings. Spike grows to have a fondness for Willow (already expressed in Season 3's interaction with her after the Dru breakup) and Tara... even Anya. His character progresses beyond the "happymeals on legs" state of mind and he becomes, essentially, an integral part of the Scooby dynamic. Buffy, coming down of the Angel breakup and entering a new phase of her life with Riley... and college, is even less hostile with Spike than in Season 2... treating him like an annoying nuisance instead of a vampire.

Why hasn't she staked him yet? Because she's grown attached... even if she doesn't want to be.

Here's the part where the relationship gets tricky. Buffy has grown up, learned from her mistakes and progress forward. So has Spike. Buffy's used to having him around them... and he's gets used to being around them. When, in Season 5, Spike professes his love for Buffy... that's where things get crazy. I personally don't think that Spike could have loved her at that time because their relationship hadn't formed anywhere beyond resigned tolerance. I thin he jumped the gun, and because he did so, Buffy freaked out. After the Angel mishap... Buffy, and her friends...Giles included, where very wary about relationships forming between vampire and slayer. It wasn't pretty with Angel (even though it was a completely different situation... and Angel definately isn't as evolved sans-soul as Spike is) so therefore it will be bad with Spike. Though, he did carry out his infatuation a little too far with the Buffybot, he inadvertently assisted with taking Glory down... and with the aftermath of Buffy's death.
But, progressing past the bot... Spike stands up to Glory, protecting Dawn and helping Buffy, even though he didn't have to, wasn't getting paid, wasn't getting anything out of it. He proves time and again that he has become something more than just snarky and sarcastic. He has something to contribute to Buffy and co... and to the world.
Buffy, on the other hand, has dealt with Spike's crush...allbeit not very directly... and grows as a person, assuming the role of mother when hers passes. She becomes more adult and with Riley's departure, she has learned more about what makes a slayer work... and what makes her as a person work. She culminates in sacrificing herself for Dawn and the good of the world... showing that she knows how to love selflessly and loving isn't weakness... it's strength.

Spike works beside the Scoobies in summer preceding Season 6, becoming a main part of the group and a major asset to them. He didn't have to because Buffy wasn't there to see him and he grows to truly love her in her absence. Because she was gone, I believe it gave Spike a chance to branc out and grow as a person while learning about the person Buffy was, and coming to love who that was. He saw selflessness and strength... and he essentially become that and showed that he could love selflessly because he loved Dawn. Maybe not in the way he loves Buffy, but it shows that he has the capacity for it... even without a soul.

So, I may be being longwinded and involved at this point, but the fact that so many of BBers have replied to this topic and given me points to go off of, makes me want to express how I feel about it... and maybe persuade others to look at this topic from a different perspective.

Season 6, Buffy is yanked from warm lovely Heaven by her unknowing friends. People she trusted. She is thrust back into her grave (to dig herself out) and is thrust back into the world she left behind... only now things are more difficult. Money issues, Dawn issues, Willow misusing magic, Giles leaving... all of that piled ontop on mental confusion and lack of motivation... ontop of being a slayer who is supposed to save the world on a daily basis.
She turns to Spike, the one person she knows will love her, she knows this. Even though she says differently, she understands him, even if she is coping with dying and coming back and lashes out at the one person who will be there for her.
I think Spike saw, but didn't really grasp what she was doing when she was sleeping with him. Many people turn to sex as an outlet for emotional stress and that is just what Buffy did. Spike turned to Drusilla... and made her his world when he came back... but it is also different for a vampire. His soul didn't come back to him, hers did. It is a different feeling altogehter. (See Buffy circa Season 2 When She Was Bad... she exhibited similar behavoir because of her death, but with cruelty and Faith-likeness instead of sex)
Buffy became someone she didn't know or even like and she porjected those feelings onto the only one who could take it. Season 6 changed both of them, Spike and Buffy, forever. The attempted rape was the breaking point and sent a wake-up call to both parties. Spike left to deal and become a better man, Buffy stayed and repaired her friendship, her sisterhood, and herself.

Season 7. Spike returns with a soul. And both him and Buffy are a little resistant. But Buffy stands with him, helps him... much like he helped her, and eventually repaired the rift between them. In his absence, Buffy had a lot of time to think about her standings and her feelings with and about Spike. To quote her in First Date, "Why does everybody in this house think I'm *still* in love with Spike?". She acknowledges the fact that there are feelings there in her heart for Spike. (Just like there are for Angel and Riley.) She is a grown woman now. She has loved and lost and knows what both of them feel like. She's matured enough to know that Spike getting a soul is a big deal, and that he will love her until the end of time. She understands this and is ready... finally to embrace her own feelings.

While they may not be big, life changing Angel love, Buffy loved Spike. That deep meaningful type of love that is a combination of like, lust, friendship, and acceptance. She wouldn't have told him if she didn't.

/end longwinded explaination


Ah, that feels better now. Any questions? Didn't think so. =]
 
ItMustBeBunnies
ItMustBeBunnies
[No message]
Airam
Airam
Perfect! I think I kinda love you :p
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
Nice post:)
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DarkAvenger
i have to give you karma for the post. i agree with everything!! ;)
I think Spike saw, but didn't really grasp what she was doing when she was sleeping with him. Many people turn to sex as an outlet for emotional stress and that is just what Buffy did. Spike turned to Drusilla... and made her his world when he came back... but it is also different for a vampire. His soul didn't come back to him, hers did. It is a different feeling altogehter. (See Buffy circa Season 2 When She Was Bad... she exhibited similar behavoir because of her death, but with cruelty and Faith-likeness instead of sex)
=]

I really agree with this point (all of your points actually!) Ive said this once before on here, When people say it was unlike Buffy to act the way she did in season six I go back to what happend in When She Was Bad, and to Bad Girls, while she didn't technically die in this episode the symbolism of her being drowned is clear enough. When she gets back up she is different, more like Faith. Season 6 was her reactions in these episodes taken to the extream because it was a more extream circumstance. I for one do beleive she loved Spike in the end. I think she started to have feelings for him in Intervention with that kiss, and it gradually progressed to love. I could waffle on about ALL of my reasons why but its been said, and said quiet nicely.
 
Airam
Airam
I always use the kiss from intervention as the starting point too.
Spike Is Love . . .

I think Buffy always did love Spike, even in season 6. She was just always ashamed of it thats why she never told anyone of their relationship and even after that she tried to tell herself that she didnt feel for him but she obviously did! I seriously like Spuffy so much more than Bangel. I mean Spike truly loves her! He fell in love with her when he was a soul less monster and he got a soul for her. Angel already had a soul when he met Buffy, Spike fell in love with her while he was a vampire (which is a HUGE deal!!!). I think their relationship is so much deeper than anything she had with Angel. And remember that she said to Spike that maybe after they fight The First they can get back together or something but then Spike interrupts her by saying just forget about it. I dont think she would want to get back together with him if she didnt love him!
[br][/br]
 
YES! You're talking about this exchange:
SPIKE: Honey, you're home.
BUFFY: Yeah.
SPIKE: (sighs) And you did it. Fulfilled your mission. Found the Holy Grail. Or the Holy Hand Grenade, or whatever the hell that is.
BUFFY: Right now we're going with scythe. You like?
SPIKE: Well, pointy and wooden is not exactly the look I wanna know better, but it does have flair. Can see why a girl would ditch a fella for one of these.
BUFFY: I'm sorry about that. (walks away)
SPIKE: It doesn't matter. You're back in the bosom. All's forgiven. And, uh, (stands in front of Buffy, looking at her) last night...was just a glitch. A bit of cold comfort from the cellar dweller. Let's don't make a thing out of it. (breathes nervously)
BUFFY: Great. I have work to do.
SPIKE: Oh, yeah. Another solo mission, of course.
BUFFY: Yeah, it is.
SPIKE: That's fine. You don't have to get shirty about it.
BUFFY: I'm not shirty. And what is shirty? That's not even a word.
SPIKE: All right. All right. Big secret mission. It's fine.
BUFFY: It's not a secret. Well, I mean, it is, but that's the point of the mission. Find out the secret. This thing was forged by"” I don't even know. I mean, something about... a tomb on unconsecrated ground. That's what I have to do. I need to find out what this is and why I have it.
SPIKE: And that's the thing the preacher man was so anxious to keep out of your mitts?
BUFFY: That it is.
SPIKE: Well, maybe I'll swing by the vineyard when you go, make sure he's sitting tight.
BUFFY: Great.
SPIKE: OK. (turns to leave)
BUFFY: (walks after him) You're a dope.
SPIKE: I'm a what?
BUFFY: You're a dope. And a bonehead. And you're shirty.
SPIKE: Have you gone completely carrot-top?
BUFFY: Do you see this? (holds up the scythe) This may actually help me fight my war. This might be the key to everything. And the reason I'm holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that you gave me last night. Look, I am tired of defensiveness and weird, mixed signals. You know, I have Faith for that. Let's just get to the truth here, OK? I don't know how you felt about last night, but I will not"”
SPIKE: (breathes in, looks away) Terrified.
BUFFY: Of what?
SPIKE: (lets out a slow sigh) Last night was... (looks up) God, I'm such a jerk. I can't do this.
BUFFY: Spike...
SPIKE: It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that, 'cause I couldn't bear it. It may not mean that much to you, but"”
BUFFY: I just told you it did.
SPIKE: (sighs) Yeah...I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was... (smiles) hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah... I'm... terrified.
BUFFY: You don't have to be.
SPIKE: (looks at her) Were you there with me?
BUFFY: (looks straight at him) I was.
SPIKE: What does that mean?
BUFFY: I don't know. Does it have to mean something?
SPIKE: No. (looks away) Not right now.
BUFFY: Maybe when...
SPIKE: No. (throws up his hand) Let's just leave it.
BUFFY: OK.
SPIKE: (sighs) We'll go be heroes. (walks out the door)

She tells him he has no reason to be terrified, she tells him she was right there with him, and she knows how he feels so telling him she was right there with him can only mean that she feels the same, and she definitely starts to say that when the fight is over they can either start over or talk about starting over more at length. I mean this convo seems so cut and dry that after having seen trhis scene I don't see how people can still say that she wasn't in love with him.
 
X
xgirlanachronism245x
Yes! Thanks. I think I kinda love you too.
D
DarkAvenger
of course. i really cant understand why people say she didnt love him.. she was totally in love with him!!
Exactly my thoughts on that exchange. They shared something that night and it opened both of their eyes as to what it was exactly. Love.

No doubt about it. =]
 
I notice large concentration of Spike fans in this thread lol

Don't you just love how open ended Joss leaves his stories so were still talking about it 6 years later :tongue2:


Bangel Rules!!!
 
Airam
Airam
Boo! :p
X
xgirlanachronism245x
bangel does rule. but spuffy rules too. =] how about spanuffy?
Ummm yeah, I'm sorry, but I do believe that....

1361987.jpg


:tongue2:
 
U
Urgent Power
This is so cute
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DarkAvenger
haha i love my sister!! :)
Judging ONLY from the relationship between Buffy and Spike in Season 7, ruling out everything that had gone on in the past between them, judging both Spike AND Buffy as "changed" people (Spike with his soul, Buffy no longer completely devastated by being torn out of heaven by her friends), I would say that love most definitely developed between the two. Given another season or two, I honestly believe that the two would have been full time, out in the open, madly, sloppily, and completely unashamedly in love and to hell with what Giles, Xander, or anyone else thought about it. But I really don't think that they were all the way there at the end of Season 7.
I think you brush upon a good point that Im sure has been talked about alot in the past....
Buffy must have felt a lot of peer pressure from her friends bc even at the very end, they barely accepted Spike into the group, let alone acknowledge the fact that he ventured all that way to get his soul back. I have a feeling that was a big part of why she never really admitted outwardly to herself or others about her love for Spike.... because of what her friends/family would think.
 
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