Did Buffy Really Love Angel?

[mayfever]

It's important to note the circumstances here, namely Buffy being depressed and even suicidal after being torn out of heaven and Spike being...well, evil. But Buffy and Spike never were disillusioned about their relationship.

Well yes, and Buffy never had sex with him again after she stopped feeling depressed and suicidal. The night they spent together in "Touched" was comforting and physical, but it wasn't sexual. To me, that's the maturity of Spuffy... but that doesn't make Bangel immature by comparison. It certainly had that highschool-y feel to it in the beginning (the jealousy, the awkwardness...), but after "Surprise" and especially "Beauty and the Beasts" I cannot for the life of me see how anything B/A is immature.

 

[The Unspoken]

Well yes, and Buffy never had sex with him again after she stopped feeling depressed and suicidal. The night they spent together in "Touched" was comforting and physical, but it wasn't sexual. To me, that's the maturity of Spuffy... but that doesn't make Bangel immature by comparison. It certainly had that highschool-y feel to it in the beginning (the jealousy, the awkwardness...), but after "Surprise" and especially "Beauty and the Beasts" I cannot for the life of me see how anything B/A is immature.

I can, but that's mainly because your post doesn't actually give any examples of their maturity, but simply declares it as a fact.

 

[brinkster130]

Yes, all of these are immature. Notice how all of these are pre-S7, though?

True, and I see your point. But time and time again I see season 6 brought up to describe Spike as a misunderstood vampire who is capable of doing good. Why is it that he can do good as a soulless vampire but the second he does something bad it's dismissed because he is soulless?

To me it just seems like an inconsistency that is used when convenient. (And I am not speaking of you specifically, just of fandom in general.)

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------

I can, but that's mainly because your post doesn't actually give any examples of their maturity, but simply declares it as a fact.

Angel's love for Buffy was selfless. He loves Buffy so much that he is able to sacrifice his own personal happiness to give her the *possibility* of something more. This to me, shows not only Angels maturity when it came to his relationship with Buffy but also the depth of the love he had for her. He could have done the easy thing and stay with her in Sunnydale but he didn't. Then a little time later he gave up his beating heart for her. Gave up being able to touch and kiss her so she could live a longer life. His love for her is constantly reflected in his actions.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

And here's where you lost me. I find that this actually it shows how much Buffy has grown and matured within seven years, it clearly was one of her most empowering moments for me. Why on earth should she be bothered to interfere if Spike were to kill Wood? Why should he deserve special protection if he ambushes him again? She has more important things on her hand than wasting time playing nanny for one murderously vengeful guy.

Spike had every fricking right to kill Wood then and there in the garage (and actually was noble enough to give him a pass that one time, "on account of I killed his mum"), I really don't get why anyone would think it were a problem if he just offed the guy on a repeat attempt? ???

I brought that up because Spike had just told Buffy that he will kill Wood the next time Wood "even so much as looks at him funny again". This is coming from Spike the vampire who, Buffy has been insisting, will not kill humans again because he has a soul.

At this point in the game I would have expected them to be told to get along and play nice for the greater good; not a free pass for Spike to kill a human who had every right to dislike Spike.

 

[Kean]

What exactly is a mature or immature love? To my estimation there can only be mature or immature people in love. The genuinity of that love, if it is indeed genuine, is not reflected in the maturity of those who possess it.

A person can be utterly in love and still engage in acts of immaturity on a massive level.

Look at Xander, he was hardly the pillar of maturity when he fell in love with Anya and, nor was he Mr. Mature for a large portion of their relationship. But is there any doubt about his feelings for her? Is there any doubt in the sincerity of his feelings for her?

Same goes for Willow, you can hardly accuse her of being very mature but we have seen her love completely.

This applies to all of the ships-Spuffy included.

Buffy and Angel may have had the majority of their relationship play out whilst Buffy was in high school, but it was not of high school.

 

[The Unspoken]

True, and I see your point. But time and time again I see season 6 brought up to describe Spike as a misunderstood vampire who is capable of doing good. Why is it that he can do good as a soulless vampire but the second he does something bad it's dismissed because he is soulless?

To me it just seems like an inconsistency that is used when convenient. (And I am not speaking of you specifically, just of fandom in general.)

Who dismisses it? Buffy? She doesn't, and the event of season 6 certainly shape much of their relationship in season 7. And it's actually fairly simple:

He was evil.
She didn't like it.
He changed.
She liked - and loved - him.
And they lived happily ever after.

Angel's love for Buffy was selfless. He loves Buffy so much that he is able to sacrifice his own personal happiness to give her the *possibility* of something more. This to me, shows not only Angels maturity when it came to his relationship with Buffy but also the depth of the love he had for her. He could have done the easy thing and stay with her in Sunnydale but he didn't. Then a little time later he gave up his beating heart for her. Gave up being able to touch and kiss her so she could live a longer life. His love for her is constantly reflected in his actions.

This to me shows a lot of self-imposed obstacles and a lack of maturity. I mean, if Buffy put a paper bag over her head during sex, they could probably get around the true happiness clause.

 

[mayfever]

This to me shows a lot of self-imposed obstacles and a lack of maturity. I mean, if Buffy put a paper bag over her head during sex, they could probably get around the true happiness clause.

a) How, then, do you define maturity?
b) I think you said something similar somewhere else, and I'm just going to quote Kean on this: They could, if the happiness clause was just about sex, which it clearly isn't.

 

[The Unspoken]

a) How, then, do you define maturity?
b) I think you said something similar somewhere else, and I'm just going to quote Kean on this: They could, if the happiness clause was just about sex, which it clearly isn't.

a. Well, a lack of self-imposed obstacles, for starters.
b. Well yeah, which is why she would have to keep the paper bag over her head during the afterglow as well. Or for the rest of her life. My point is: there are plenty of ways they could've made it work.

brinkster130 disagrees: What does this "happiness clause" have to do with Spike and Buffy?

What the fudge?

 

[fly on the wall]

a. Well, a lack of self-imposed obstacles, for starters.
b. Well yeah, which is why she would have to keep the paper bag over her head during the afterglow as well. Or for the rest of her life. My point is: there are plenty of ways they could've made it work.

Erm, I'm not sure a paper bag would be enough to fool a fully-functioning human brain that the person that they're with (not to mention having SEX with) is actually someone else. So....no, I don't see a way they could make it worth, without risking countless lives anyway.

 

[The Unspoken]

Erm, I'm not sure a paper bag would be enough to fool a fully-functioning human brain that the person that they're with (not to mention having SEX with) is actually someone else. So....no, I don't see a way they could make it worth, without risking countless lives anyway.

I've always seen it argued that the feeling of contentment Angel had when he held Buffy in his arms right after their first time was a moment of true happiness for him. I think a paper bag over Buffy's head would've taken him out of the moment, to say the least.

Also, they sell souls in caves in Africa now. And they come without one of those pesky true happiness clauses.

 

[Caro]

Also, they sell souls in caves in Africa now. And they come without one of those pesky true happiness clauses.

You forgot a detail... Spike didn't have a ''If he achieves one moment of true happiness, he will loose his soul'' curse... No matter how Angel got his soul, he would still have that curse...

 

[StarSlayer]

True, and I see your point. But time and time again I see season 6 brought up to describe Spike as a misunderstood vampire who is capable of doing good. Why is it that he can do good as a soulless vampire but the second he does something bad it's dismissed because he is soulless?

To me it just seems like an inconsistency that is used when convenient. (And I am not speaking of you specifically, just of fandom in general.)

I'm only mentioning this once because I don't want to get too off topic. 🙂 What Spike did was never dismissed simply because he was soulless. It certainty wasn't dismissed even when he got his soul in s7. However, what he did was forgiven by Buffy (I draw your attention to "Beneath You" and "Never Leave Me,"), as Buffy forgave Angel for what he did when he was soulless (killing Jenny, torturing Giles, etc).

What exactly is a mature or immature love? To my estimation there can only be mature or immature people in love. The genuinity of that love, if it is indeed genuine, is not reflected in the maturity of those who possess it.

I think that's where people defer, especially when it comes to shipping preferences. Some see Bangel as progressing into an immature (maybe premature is a better word) relationship because both Buffy and Angel themselves have become more mature since they were together. I'm not putting down Bangel. I'm just saying that's how some may see it. 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

You forgot a detail... Spike didn't have a ''If he achieves one moment of true happiness, he will loose his soul'' curse... No matter how Angel got his soul, he would still have that curse...

That demon shaman could grant other wishes too.

 

[goodbyetonight]

Long story short? Yes, she did.

 

[mayfever]

Also, they sell souls in caves in Africa now. And they come without one of those pesky true happiness clauses.

Now if only Angelus was a bit more of a nice fella who would actually be willing to fight for a soul! Dangit, why does it have to be so complicated!

I would like to partly disagree with your contentment theory, because I'd say the contentment a person feels after a sexual encounter is pretty much hormonally induced and that would not explain sufficiently enough why Angel would only lose his soul with Buffy. I do, however, agree that the decisive moment occured during said afterglow, only I would argue that it was more of an emotional thing, because Angel finally, fully realised that Buffy, someone who was made to fight and kill the likes of him, not only accepted, but loved him with all that he was.

I don't think I have seen one piece of evidence in canon that the obstacles between Buffy and Angel were self-imposed. I agree that there is an ample amount of sloppy writing that leaves room for doubt, but there's this thing in fiction called "suspense of disbelief", which, at least for me, takes care of most of the plot holes.

 

[StarSlayer]

brinkster130 agrees: I wasn't talking about Buffy so much as I was the fandom in general. Maybe dismissed isn't the right word. My only point was that I have found inconsistencies in the way season 6 Spike is talked about. and ps: I love how forgiving Buffy is

Me too! 😀 She's "full of love" after all! Even with the fandom though, the fans I've come across don't dismiss any of the evil things Spike did pre-soul. It wouldn't be a story about redemption if we did, lol! 😀

 

[Kean]

I think that's where people defer, especially when it comes to shipping preferences. Some see Bangel as progressing into an immature (maybe premature is a better word) relationship because both Buffy and Angel themselves have become more mature since they were together. I'm not putting down Bangel. I'm just saying that's how some may see it. 🙂

I can understand that POV but I'd disagree. 🙂

The older you get, the more life you live, the more mature you become. That's an inevitability.

However...

Willow is more mature now than when she was with Tara, does that mean she loves Kennedy more?

Xander is leaps and bounds more mature than he was with Anya, does that mean he will love Dawn more?

I just don't buy that there is a correlation between maturity and genuine emotions.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made for maturity allowing someone to love better? But I don't believe it is a requirement for love to be real.

 

[StarSlayer]

However...

Willow is more mature now than when she was with Tara, does that mean she loves Kennedy more?

Xander is leaps and bounds more mature than he was with Anya, does that mean he will love Dawn more?

That's why we love in ways, not amounts 😉 Although, Willow/Kennedy would be the exception there, lol! 😀

I just don't buy that there is a correlation between maturity and genuine emotions.

I agree, which is why I've said I don't think Buffy and Angel's relationship in the beginning is immature. The foundation of their relationship was based on real feelings. The way they acted later in life, however, made me feel like the relationship was immature. That doesn't make their feelings any less mature though.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made for maturity allowing someone to love better? But I don't believe it is a requirement for love to be real.

I agree in that I don't think maturity is a requirement for love to be real either. Yet, maturity could play a factor in having the relationship last. I think that's what some of us are saying. 🙂

---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

Scobro agrees: of course you love in amounts! ways and amounts.

Oh my gosh, I was totally teasing because that's always an argument between Bangels and Spuffies, lol! 😀 I would know 😉

 

[Kean]

That's why we love in ways, not amounts 😉

Like the way Buffy and Spike love each other like real good friends 😉 😛

I joke, I joke! Call back the flying monkeys 😛

Yet, maturity could play a factor in having the relationship last. I think that's what some of us are saying. 🙂

That's what I meant when I suggested that there is an argument to be made that maturity affords you the ability to love better. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

Like the way Buffy and Spike love each other like real good friends 😉 😛

I joke, I joke! Call back the flying monkeys 😛

Yeah, fire bursts between the hands of two "friends," lol 😉 😛

"I'll get you my little pretty and you're little Bangel too!" :biggrin3:

That's what I meant when I suggested that there is an argument to be made that maturity affords you the ability to love better. 🙂

And thus, the debate begins (or is never-ending) based on who Buffy was able to love better based on that maturity 🙂 I think you know where I stand 😉

 

[Kean]

Yeah, fire bursts between the hands of two friends, lol 😉 😛

Happens to myself and Lyri all the time 😛

Well, in fairness, you clasp hands with the guy whose hand is on fire-you're gonna be a little bit extra flamey. 😛

Now, if their hands had spontaneously combusted all on their own, we might have a discussion 😛 😉

"I'll get you my little pretty and you're little Bangel too!" :biggrin3:

LMFAO!

And of course, the debate begins based on who Buffy was able to love better based on that maturity 😀 I think you know where I stand 😉

And you know where I stand too. So I think we just stay standing where we are 😉 I think we're both good here. 🙂