Question Did Buffy REALLY love Spike?

[xaphania]

I don't necessarily get offended by the question, but I have to wonder why you don't believe Buffy when she says she loves him.

Actually, this recent post (and the ensuing comments) at livejournal says it better than I can:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

Full post and interesting discussion here: http://penny-lane-42.livejournal.com/184247.html

It also truly baffles me when people say that they only see the love as a friendship. It was most definitely not portrayed that way in the final season, the show made it quite clear that there were romantic feelings involved.

Look at it this way - could you see Buffy spending those last few nights in Sunnydale cuddled up to Xander (a platonic friend, as people seem to want to cast Spike) like that?

 

[Fenrik]

I just don`t understand why people react this way just because we don`t believe Buffy when she says it. Not even Spike belived her. How do you explain that then?

 

[Litheran]

Because we know for a fact that she did. Joss already clarified that in Chosen when she grabbed his hand she loved and was in love with him. You can debate a lot of things when given enough leeway. But the man spoke plainly and without any wiggling room. And since in all actuality Buffy came from Joss and his quirky brain; he is Buffy after a fact....


...that was a little disturbing; but really it's not that Bangels or whoever seem to think Buffy didn't mean it. The thing that gets on our nerves is that it's being thrown around every five seconds in what seems like an attempt to get a rise out of us. It's all good though; because I am about to get off work; and I'm gonna put on season seven and wrap myself in a warm blanket made out of Spuffy love.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I just don`t understand why people react this way just because we don`t believe Buffy when she says it. Not even Spike belived her. How do you explain that then?

Who said he didn't? there could be many reasons, way more than "he didnt".
My own theory is, he wanted Buffy out of there. If he would have told her that he loves her too, she would have stayed and died with him. But he loves her too much to let her die with him. He wants her alive more than he wants them to be together. Now, THAT'S love!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Who said he didn't? there could be many reasons, way more than "he didnt".
My own theory is, he wanted Buffy out of there. If he would have told her that he loves her too, she would have stayed and died with him. But he loves her too much to let her die with him. He wants her alive more than he wants them to be together. Now, THAT'S love!

I don't think that's the case.

I still don't know why Spike said 'No you don't.' and I'll probably never will figure it out, but if he thought Buffy would stay with him, he didn't knew her at all. I don't think Buffy would die for a man. She had a job out there. She had people who needed her. She knows how's it like to loose a man, and I think she could deal with it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I don't think that's the case.

I still don't know why Spike said 'No you don't.' and I'll probably never will figure it out, but if he thought Buffy would stay with him, he didn't knew her at all. I don't think Buffy would die for a man. She had a job out there. She had people who needed her. She knows how's it like to loose a man, and I think she could deal with it.

But how would you know? Maybe Buffy, once realized she's less needed in the world (now that there are many Slayers in the world) and the world can keep living without her, maybe now she can finally love completely and even do what she actually wants. Up until now she couldn't do what she wanted for the simple reason she was a Slayer. Maybe Buffy's love for Spike IS really big that she can't live without him?

Now, I know you'll probably disagree with me on that (you being a Bangel), but it is possible that now after it's all better, she could die for the man she loves!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

But how would you know? Maybe Buffy, once realized she's less needed in the world (now that there are many Slayers in the world) and the world can keep living without her, maybe now she can finally love completely and even do what she actually wants. Up until now she couldn't do what she wanted for the simple reason she was a Slayer. Maybe Buffy's love for Spike IS really big that she can't live without him?

Now, I know you'll probably disagree with me on that (you being a Bangel), but it is possible that now after it's all better, she could die for the man she loves!

I'm not going to disagree with you because I'm a Bangel, I'm going to disagree you because I don't think Buffy would to that because she realized she's more than a Slayer. Slayer is only a part of what she is. She has family, she has friends.. she's a hero. Spike had to die, and I don't think Buffy would give up life for anyone, unless it's necessary.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm not going to disagree with you because I'm a Bangel, I'm going to disagree you because I don't think Buffy would to that because she realized she's more than a Slayer. Slayer is only a part of what she is. She has family, she has friends.. she's a hero. Spike had to die, and I don't think Buffy would give up life for anyone, unless it's necessary.

I was saying, that now that she's not the ONLY slayer and the world doesn't need her as much as it used to before, maybe she'd put her love life first. I don't say she'd die for a man for sure, but that's just a theory among many to the "no you don't". Because I don't think he said that because he believes in it, at all. And here's the place we disagree on the most. But as I said, there can be many reasons for his words. And it is possible that she would have stayed there, not because she'd die for her man, but because she wouldn't be able to leave. Her feelings would overcome. And because he told her he loves her too, she'd think there is still a chance to save him or/also convince him to come with her after all, and then or/also have the relationship she subtly said they might have after the fight ("maybe when..." remember?). But Spike wanted to be worthy of her more than be with her. He wanted to die for the world, also to redeem himself. He was very determine when he told her he's staying. He knew there was no way she'd convince him to run away with her. She'd stay behind and die because there wouldn't be a way they both come out of it, from his point of view. Only by telling her she didn't mean it, that might make Buffy flee.

There could be more reasons. So his words don't have to mean what they say "“ that he doesn't believe her. I'm just speculation here, but all of that could be a good reason.

 

[StarSlayer]

Buffyheaven agrees: I just didn't think what they had in season 7 was anything. (don't kill me) if anything it was pity on Buffy's part.

Lol, I'm not going to kill you. 🙂 I just don't see it as pity on Buffy's part because I don't think it was pity at all. It was learning to forgive, which grew into trust and love. Buffy definitely said she felt for Spike ("I feel for him") once he got his soul back, but Buffy also showed examples of tough love. "You have a soul. Fine. Show me." "You keep holding back, you might as well walk out that door." If anything, she pushed Spike to stop moping after a while and to start becoming the fighter she knew he was. 🙂

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

I just don`t understand why people react this way just because we don`t believe Buffy when she says it. Not even Spike belived her. How do you explain that then?

I've written so many posts on this before, but I'll say it again. 🙂 I believe Spike did believe Buffy not only when she said "I love you," but even before that. The look in his eyes the moment their hands clasped together and the fire burst says it all. It was a look of shock, and then almost relief. They both felt something and it was love. How do I know it was love? Because their whole relationship was based on this idea of a fire burning. Buffy couldn't admit her burning desire to be with Spike. "It burns, huh?" Spike described great love as wild, passionate, and burning and consuming. I could go on. Maybe I'll write a meta about that one of these days, lol! 😀

Also, in AtS s5,

Spoiler

when Spike comes back to life, one of the first things he says to Angel no less about his relationship with Buffy, "You had no idea what we had." I think that confirms he believed Buffy when she said "I love you," in "Chosen."

As others have said, Spike wanted to protect Buffy. "You have to go on living, so one of us is living." I also think a part of it was him trying to protect himself. The woman he loved and earned his soul for was finally saying the words he longed to hear. Not the best timing on Buffy's part, lol, but she said it and I think Spike couldn't believe it. Right before he speaks, he gasps, the sub-text being "Oh my God, she finally said." Yet, like Buffy, he tried to cover his true feelings. She use to say to him (i.e. Dead Things), "No, you don't," when he said he loved her. And we know Buffy believed Spike. Hell, we believed Spike. However, the tables were turned in "Chosen." Buffy was now the one telling Spike she loved him, and Spike was the one saying "No, you don't." So, like Buffy, I think he tried to cover to protect himself as well as Buffy.

And, I just have to get this out, but I do get offended when people question whether Buffy loved Spike. Although I'm a Spuffie, I never deny that Buffy loved Angel and some part of her still does. Yet, when others can't do the same for Buffy and Spike, and not even acknowledge that she loved him (in a romantic sense) although Joss, the writers, and even SMG said it themselves, then I get a little upset. I don't mean any offense by that, but I just had to say how I felt. 🙂 It worked for Buffy 😉

 

[soulunsung]

I just don`t understand why people react this way just because we don`t believe Buffy when she says it. Not even Spike belived her. How do you explain that then?

I'll make this simple, we KNOW FOR A FACT that Buffy DID LOVE Spike. This came from Joss Whedon himself and there are other things that support this. Spike acted like he didn't believe her, because that's what he NEEDED TO DO in that moment. He couldn't let her stay down there and burn with him, he needed her to get out of there and live her life. OMWF does a great job of illustrating this, "You have to live, so one of us is living." That was a re-occurring theme throughout S6.

It's true that none of us are Buffy or Spike, so we can't really speak for the character's themselves, but we can speak for what we have seen as an audience and we can take Joss Whedon's and Jane Epenson's and SMG's and JM's words on how the character's felt for one another and how they played each of their scenes out. If they tell me that they were in love, that Buffy really did love Spike, and that their's was an unconditional love that asked for nothing in return and yet gave everything of themselves self-sacrificingly then that's what I'm going to believe and that's how I'm going to believe.

If you can't see that Buffy REALLY LOVED Spike in that moment (even when Joss Whedon said that THEY DID) then I guess you're calling him a liar.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I was saying, that now that she's not the ONLY slayer and the world doesn't need her as much as it used to before, maybe she'd put her love life first. I don't say she'd die for a man for sure, but that's just a theory among many to the "no you don't".

And again, I'm saying, she realized she's more than a SLAYER. She's someone. She's Buffy. Slayer is only one part of her being. And day before she said to Angel she's not done baking, so I don't think she had put her love life to the first place. That statement is for Angel, and for Spike himself. She finaly learned how to live without a man, that there is more of her..

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

soulunsung disagrees: And I disagree. I think you're wrong about that one particular moment, I fully believe that if Spike would have said he loved her back - that given how much Buffy had changed - she would have stayed with him.

I never thought you guys feel that low about Buffy. I would never want my hero to give her life for a man.. she comes first. That's so Bella like..

 

[Chosen Enemy]

And again, I'm saying, she realized she's more than a SLAYER. She's someone. She's Buffy. Slayer is only one part of her being. And day before she said to Angel she's not done baking, so I don't think she had put her love life to the first place. That statement is for Angel, and for Spike himself. She finaly learned how to live without a man, that there is more of her..

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------



I never thought you guys feel that low about Buffy. I would never want my hero to give her life for a man.. she comes first. That's so Bella like..

I see what you're saying. I was reasoning the scene and Spike's words, and Buffy's actions. We can never know the true reason. I only said one option. that doesn't have to be it. But I stand behind what I said, that Spike didn't say no you don't because he believed she didn't. There could be any reason, but no matter what the reason was, there was a reason.

 

[Fenrik]

We should ask Joss WHY he made Spike say "No you don`t. But thaks for saying it." 😀
If he hadn`t said anything after Buffy said she loved him, I may have had a totally different view...but I just don`t...

And I don`t think Spike said it just to get Buffy out of there.
Buffy would NEVER have stayed down there with Spike. She could never have done that to Dawn. And I think Spike knows that Dawn is everything for Buffy.

Even though I`m not a Spuffy fan, I like all of your comments and views about it. I do have my own opinions about it, but I`m just not good at talking for my own behalf. lol! 😀

 

[The Unspoken]

We should ask Joss WHY he made Spike say "No you don`t. But thaks for saying it." 😀
If he hadn`t said anything after Buffy said she loved him, I may have had a totally different view...but I just don`t...

And I don`t think Spike said it just to get Buffy out of there.
Buffy would NEVER have stayed down there with Spike. She could never have done that to Dawn. And I think Spike knows that Dawn is everything for Buffy.

Even though I`m not a Spuffy fan, I like all of your comments and views about it. I do have my own opinions about it, but I`m just not good at talking for my own behalf. lol! 😀

He (also) said it so that she could move on with her life and live it to the fullest. This is further symbolized by the fact that it's Spike that closes the Hellmouth, effectively relieving her of the burden she had to carry all those years - being the guardian of the Hellmouth.
You could also say Spike is the one 'chosen' (over that other souled vampire) because Buffy lets him use the amulet.

 

[soulunsung]

And again, I'm saying, she realized she's more than a SLAYER. She's someone. She's Buffy. Slayer is only one part of her being. And day before she said to Angel she's not done baking, so I don't think she had put her love life to the first place. That statement is for Angel, and for Spike himself. She finaly learned how to live without a man, that there is more of her..

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------



I never thought you guys feel that low about Buffy. I would never want my hero to give her life for a man.. she comes first. That's so Bella like..

I'm sorry I'm still a bit new to the board and I don't know you all that well, but I have to say that I find your "That's so Bella," comment a tad offensive. Never mind that there aren't any similarities between the two character's at all save for the fact that they both fell in love and loved three vampires. Yes, I included Spike in that, because Buffy DID LOVE him despite what so many other's are saying.

It's not that we feel that low about Buffy, it's that Buffy was a different person in S7 than she has been in previous seasons. Every season she changes a bit and grows and evolves or takes steps back only to be pushed forward, that can be both a good and bad thing sometimes. As far as Spike goes, I do believe that she would have entertained the idea of sacrificing herself WITH him if he would have acknowledged that HE believed her when SHE said that she LOVED him.

It was Spike that she sat with in a dark alley in S6 and told him that she could be alone with him there. It was Spike, that she confided in that she was in heaven and she was warm, complete, and loved. She was happy and being pulled out of there and thrust back into a world that she died to protecting is hell, just getting through one day and the next is hell. She couldn't even tell the Scoobies, but she could tell Spike.

I think it's important that we ask ourselves why she could do that? I think it's because she knew that out of all the people who would understand her and who would listen to her no judgement given and only unconditional support WOULD be Spike. He of all people, would have a better understanding of what she went through and who better than HIM who's been this constant in her life for years - whether it was for good or bad or because she really wanted him there in the end because she WAS NOT READY for him TO NOT BE THERE. Her words, not mine.

So, if we take those words and apply them there at the end when she tells him that she loves him and we see that relief and acknowledgement of her love flashing in BOTH of their eyes, it is then that Spike makes his last ultimate sacrifice in the name of their love - HE chooses LIFE for HER. It's what she deserved after EVERYTHING that they've been through together and all of the hell that SHE has had to endure - it's his last final gift to her.

He gives her life, so that one of them is living. If he can't, then by god she can and he will make sure of that. So, he tells her that she doesn't love him NOT BECAUSE he doesn't believe her, but because HE DOES and he NEEDS HER to live so ONE OF THEM goes on living.

Sorry, don't mean to sound like a bitca, but them's the facts ya'll.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

PrincessBuffy16 agrees: Sure, there could be any reason, I just don't belive in your one. No hard feelings I hope

I guess the reason really doesn't matter. The question is whether he believe her or not, which I say he did and you say he didn't. So that's okay, we have different opinions, different rooting targets (you Bangel, me Spuffy), just explained that there could be many reasons to support the statment that HE DID 😀😀😀

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I'm sorry I'm still a bit new to the board and I don't know you all that well, but I have to say that I find your "That's so Bella," comment a tad offensive. Never mind that there aren't any similarities between the two character's at all save for the fact that they both fell in love and loved three vampires. Yes, I included Spike in that, because Buffy DID LOVE him despite what so many other's are saying.

It's not that we feel that low about Buffy, it's that Buffy was a different person in S7 than she has been in previous seasons. Every season she changes a bit and grows and evolves or takes steps back only to be pushed forward, that can be both a good and bad thing sometimes. As far as Spike goes, I do believe that she would have entertained the idea of sacrificing herself WITH him if he would have acknowledged that HE believed her when SHE said that she LOVED him.

It was Spike that she sat with in a dark alley in S6 and told him that she could be alone with him there. It was Spike, that she confided in that she was in heaven and she was warm, complete, and loved. She was happy and being pulled out of there and thrust back into a world that she died to protecting is hell, just getting through one day and the next is hell. She couldn't even tell the Scoobies, but she could tell Spike.

I think it's important that we ask ourselves why she could do that? I think it's because she knew that out of all the people who would understand her and who would listen to her no judgement given and only unconditional support WOULD be Spike. He of all people, would have a better understanding of what she went through and who better than HIM who's been this constant in her life for years - whether it was for good or bad or because she really wanted him there in the end because she WAS NOT READY for him TO NOT BE THERE. Her words, not mine.

So, if we take those words and apply them there at the end when she tells him that she loves him and we see that relief and acknowledgement of her love flashing in BOTH of their eyes, it is then that Spike makes his last ultimate sacrifice in the name of their love - HE chooses LIFE for HER. It's what she deserved after EVERYTHING that they've been through together and all of the hell that SHE has had to endure - it's his last final gift to her.

He gives her life, so that one of them is living. If he can't, then by god she can and he will make sure of that. So, he tells her that she doesn't love him NOT BECAUSE he doesn't believe her, but because HE DOES and he NEEDS HER to live so ONE OF THEM goes on living.

Sorry, don't mean to sound like a bitca, but them's the facts ya'll.

Haven't tried to offend you, you belive in what you belive and I belive in what I belive, and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm one of those people who hate Bella and what she represents.. but out from the words said here, it was her characteristics.. she would die for her man because she has no respect for herself, all that she is, is him.

I'm not going to discuss her feelings toward Spike again, because I don't truly belive they were THAT strong. I'm not saying that there are none, but I don't belive it was some big epic love. Yes, Buffy changes over the seasons.. and that's why I belive she would never comit suicide, when she finally realized in the end of S6 that she wants to live. To teach Dawn.

And not trying to offend you or sound like a bitch either, but those are not facts, that is your opinion..

 

[zobothehobo]

I never thought you guys feel that low about Buffy. I would never want my hero to give her life for a man.. she comes first. That's so Bella like..

This comment felt really mean. I don't think it's thinking low of Buffy to suggest she love with all her heart and soul. I think it's thinking low of Buffy to suggest she develop the relationship she did with Spike in season 7 and then lie to him and say "I love you" but not mean it. Hell, I think it's low in general to say "I love you" and not mean it. But please, let's not take this thread to a "I can't believe you think so low of Buffy" kind of place.

And I don`t think Spike said it just to get Buffy out of there.
Buffy would NEVER have stayed down there with Spike. She could never have done that to Dawn. And I think Spike knows that Dawn is everything for Buffy.

As StarSlayer said above me, have you considered he said it form himself? If you don't like the explanation that it's for Buffy to leave (I think that's a small part, but not most of it), search for another explanation.

This is what I think. I think he said it partially for himself... (mainly for himself). He knew he had to die to be the man Buffy loved, even could love. Hearing her say "I love you" made it that much harder. He wanted so desperately to go be with her. She finally loved him... how incredibly exciting and amazing is that?! But he had to stay. "I wanna see how it ends" to me was his way of justifying to himself staying as was "no, you don't."

I also think it was for her. Last time her man died part of her died with him. Buffy ran off for several months. She changed her name and hid from her life. Spike knew she couldn't do that this time. He knew he couldn't let her get that broken up over him. Like you guys have said, she had a job to do. So many new slayers and it was her job to find them and lead them. "No, you don't" was an instruction.... but not to get her out of the building. So that she would go on living... emotionally.

Also, I'd like to say just like StarSlayer I too get offended when people say Buffy didn't love Spike. It gets really annoying to have to constantly defend the love in my ship. Like StarSlayer, I'll never deny Buffy loved Angel and I'll never deny part of her still does. You don't forget or stop loving your first love. But she also loves Spike. You've got to let her move on in your minds. She moved on in reality. You never stop loving your first love, but that doesn't mean you never love again.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

This comment felt really mean. I don't think it's thinking low of Buffy to suggest she love with all her heart and soul. I think it's thinking low of Buffy to suggest she develop the relationship she did with Spike in season 7 and then lie to him and say "I love you" but not mean it. Hell, I think it's low in general to say "I love you" and not mean it. But please, let's not take this thread to a "I can't believe you think so low of Buffy" kind of place.

Sorry, I never tried to be mean :/

I'm not trying to say Buffy never loved Spike, as I said on many ocassions, I think she did, and I don't think Buffy is a liar.. but I don't belive she loved him as you guys belive.

 

[Fenrik]

If you don't like the explanation that it's for Buffy to leave (I think that's a small part, but not most of it), search for another explanation.

What do mean by this?

I didn`t say that I don`t like this explanation. Just that IMO that`s not the reason.
As I said in that same post, I do like all your explanations. Doesn`t mean that I have to agree with them...