Question Did Buffy REALLY love Spike?

[BananaBuffy]

I know that I won't be saying anything that hasn't already been said but I had to jump here to voice my opinions on this matter. Because I do believe that she really did love Spike--not from early on, like he did, but she came into realizing it later.

No one was more surprised than me to hear her say "Why does everybody here think I'm still in love with Spike" Yes, it may have been a slightly throw away remark but I doubt she'd say it if she didn't mean it, even if it was absent-mindedly. She'd been in denial about that fact for so long that how could it not be true if she said it aloud. So, obviously she'd been in denial in year 6, had finally admitted it to herself in year 7 but had decided, again in denial, that she was over it. She wasn't, everybody else was right.

But you can tell also by expressions on her faces and the way she truly cares about him in season seven how much she loves him. There are just these moments when they look at each other, it's amazing. And even when she says "I don't want to be the one" it sounds weak, like she's giving into something. And I don't think she wants to get hurt, she's afraid and gaurded. But she really, really loves him. Anybody who can't see the love is blind.

So yeah, my opinion. Not really a great one but you know.

 

[Flannen]

When I first saw this thread I was like 'again?!' lol, but there's lots of new people discussing it which is always good to see!

My feelings for this still haven't changed. I don't think Buffy was in love with Spike, in season 7. I would go so far as to say she was on her way and her feelings were certainly intensifying but her 'I love you' still holds absolutely no conviction for me. I like some of their scenes together in season 7, there were some beautiful moments of contentment but I don't think she was quite there yet. Could she have been, had the events beyond the finale been different? I think so. But by the time Spike reappeared (I don't read the comics but I keep up with the gist) I think things had changed and it would take a long time for her to find herself in that place again. But, I'm not saying it's impossible. This is one of the only things I often myself still pondering about from time to time and I've come to the conclusion that there was potential for it to reach being 'in love' and REALLY loving him, but that's still as far as it goes for me.

As for the 'text' and what Joss says - even that is not fact. Nothing about this discussion will ever be fact, which is why we all go through the pain and trauma of discussing it. After my wee break, I do find it interesting how much contention there still is with this topic, and I'm laughing at myself for this being one of the first posts I make in ages. 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

As for the 'text' and what Joss says - even that is not fact.

How is what Joss and the writers have said not a fact? I have a hard time understanding that, lol 🙂

 

[Flannen]

How is what Joss and the writers have said not a fact? I have a hard time understanding that, lol 🙂

lol, you've obviously not had this debate with me yet 😛 For those that have, I apologise! 😉

I never listen, nor take into account what any writer says about anything. Be it about their own novel, characters, film, TV show or whatever. I'm not interested. I won't bog you down with the long explanation but there is a theory called 'Death of the Author' which, in short, says that when someone chooses to put their work into the public sphere, they relinquish all rights to dictate to their readers, or viewers, what they are to think or feel. Because eventually, someone is going to read/watch it when the writer/person who created is long since dead and thus they will no longer have the opportunity to have any say over how it is interpreted.

What I read or watch is entirely up to my own interpretation; what I feel when I watch/read it, how I read the characters and their actions and the writer has no right to tell me otherwise. I love texts (books, films, TV) for their wealth of interpretation and because they provide people with the freedom to relate and respond in any way they see fit. Interpretation is a part of who you are, what you believe and how you see the world and no one has any right to take that away from you. Not even if they created it 😉

Does that make me sound less like a crazy person? 😉 And help you to understand my previous post?

 

[soulunsung]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm one of those people who hate Bella and what she represents.. but out from the words said here, it was her characteristics.. she would die for her man because she has no respect for herself, all that she is, is him.

I'm not going to discuss her feelings toward Spike again, because I don't truly belive they were THAT strong. I'm not saying that there are none, but I don't belive it was some big epic love. Yes, Buffy changes over the seasons.. and that's why I belive she would never comit suicide, when she finally realized in the end of S6 that she wants to live. To teach Dawn.

And not trying to offend you or sound like a bitch either, but those are not facts, that is your opinion..

That's absolutely fine with me.

And my point is, that Bella has absolutely nothing to do with this. I find it highly offensive to say that either character Bella or Buffy would have no respect for themselves if they would die for her man. Here's my point, Spike was dying to protect the woman that he loves and if he gets to save the world while doing so then that's a perk, does that mean that he has no self-respect for himself?

I'm not going to get into the Bella thing much more because I don't believe that she belongs in this discussion, but I will say that we all know that Spike was not EVERYTHING that Buffy ever was. Neither was Angel, if we're going there.

Fair enough. But, if we're really going to go there, none of us can really say what Buffy would've or couldn't of done in that situation. We know what Spike would do, he more than showed us that, but we can't say one way or another for a fact that Buffy would NEVER choose to stay there and burn with Spike if he had acknowledged that he knew she loved him and had said as much back to her.

We can say that we believe it would have or wouldn't have happened, based on evidence from various scenes, episodes, and dialog taken from them but we can't say for certain. As far as Spike not being an epic love for Buffy, to each their own. Some people believe that Buffy and Angel were some big epic love story meant to stand the test of time, I however, do not believe this.

I believe she loved him and I believe that he was her first big love, but I don't believe that it was more epic or was more meaningful than the love she felt for Spike.

zobothehobo agrees: The fact that you're one of those people who hates Bella and everything she represents is kind of what makes that really offensive. Also the "you think low of Buffy" part.

Agreed. I found tha to be a tad bit offensive myself and actually felt like there was no reason to be introducing Bella into this discussion as the two character's and their stories they've had to tell have NOTHING at all to do with the other except for the fact that they both fell in love with three different vampires and even that's a stretch. The premise and plot for each were entirely different.

"No, you don't" was an instruction.... but not to get her out of the building. So that she would go on living... emotionally.

Voice of reason right there and I couldn't have said it any better myself. It was important for Buffy to continue living otherwise, what was the point of the big epic battle in the end if the heroine - their fearless leader - died and what would Spike's big epic beautiful sacrifice have meant if she had stayed there and died with him? He was not going to let her do that. So, he gave her instructions - the same one's he gave to her in OMWF - "You have to go on living, so one of us is living..."

I don't mind believing that maybe the we might have been given a very different ending, had Spike chosen to be selfish in that one moment that he had been waiting years for, and acknowledged that she loved him - was in love with him - and had chosen to cash that in and said it back to her. I have no problem believing that the thought MIGHT HAVE actually crossed Buffy's mind to stay there with him til' the end.

I'm not saying that she would have, mind you, what I'm saying is I have no problem believing that she might have. Just my humble opinion.

Thing is, together they would have beaten the bad guys, all of the people that she loved or cared about would have possibly made it out safe and alive sans the few brave one's who ended giving their life for the greater good, and she could have been content with being happy, being in love with a man who was now that man worthy of her love because she changed him so much and gave him the want to be changed for the better, and together they would have perished gloriously.

Like StarSlayer, I'll never deny Buffy loved Angel and I'll never deny part of her still does. You don't forget or stop loving your first love. But she also loves Spike. You've got to let her move on in your minds. She moved on in reality. You never stop loving your first love, but that doesn't mean you never love again.

Again, THIS on so many many levels.

As for the 'text' and what Joss says - even that is not fact.

So, I'm confused...are you saying that Joss is a liar? :/

I guess I'm just of the opinion (and this is solely mine only and has nothing to do with anyone else except myself) that when the writer, show-runner, etc. says something specifically about a character, a series of events in a show, a novel they've written, or pairing they're giving a certain scene for - this is to be taken for a fact because it came from them personally. It didn't come from some random fan, it came directly from the creator who gave us these wonderful characters and this story - in this case it would be Joss Whedon.

He knows his character's and his story much better than we do and so if he tells me that he told SMJ and JM to play this scene in Chosen at the end as being in love with each other, then that is what I have to believe he intended the scene to show us.

 

[StarSlayer]

lol, you've obviously not had this debate with me yet 😛 For those that have, I apologise! 😉

I never listen, nor take into account what any writer says about anything. Be it about their own novel, characters, film, TV show or whatever. I'm not interested. I won't bog you down with the long explanation but there is a theory called 'Death of the Author' which, in short, says that when someone chooses to put their work into the public sphere, they relinquish all rights to dictate to their readers, or viewers, what they are to think or feel. Because eventually, someone is going to read/watch it when the writer/person who created is long since dead and thus they will no longer have the opportunity to have any say over how it is interpreted.

What I read or watch is entirely up to my own interpretation; what I feel when I watch/read it, how I read the characters and their actions and the writer has no right to tell me otherwise. I love texts (books, films, TV) for their wealth of interpretation and because they provide people with the freedom to relate and respond in any way they see fit. Interpretation is a part of who you are, what you believe and how you see the world and no one has any right to take that away from you. Not even if they created it 😉

Does that make me sound less like a crazy person? 😉 And help you to understand my previous post?

Lol, I don't know if it makes you sound less like a crazy person, but I guess I can understand it, even if I don't agree with that theory 🙂 If a character is a person's creation, then I can't ignore what the creator says about their characters, which includes their text, thoughts, emotions, etc. I love reading and hearing why actors make certain choices for their characters, why writers chose to have their characters go in a certain direction, and so on. I don't mind if people have different interpretations about a TV show or movie, even if I may disagree with some. It just makes discussions much more fun IMO 😀 In this instance, I just have a hard time understanding why some people say Buffy didn't love Spike or Buffy wasn't "in love" with Spike when Joss, the creator of Buffy, clearly said she was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped. But, I respect your opinion on the matter, although I disagree with some of it 🙂

 

[soulunsung]

Flannen agrees: Read my post above yours. It explains what I mean by what Joss says isn't fact and why what writer's say means nothing to me.

I did read your post above mine on why you feel what the writer's have to say means nothing to you and I was responding with my opinion, that it does matter to me. Like StarSlayer said in her post, if a creator says something about a certain ship or character they've created, then I take it to be a fact. For instance, Joss Whedon said Buffy was in love with Spike in during that scene in Chosen, and I choose to believe it because he created the show, he created the character's, and this was coming directly from him and not some random fan on a street corner.

It's cool with me, if you disagree or you feel another way as you obviously do, but I cannot dismiss what the creator has to say about any aspect of their creation. It's not so much in telling the audience what they have to believe, as it is in telling the audience what the creator meant for the scene to show us from their perspective. In Joss's mind - Buffy loved Spike in that instance and she was in love with him the moment their hands claspsed - so because these are his characters, this relationship he's given us for years, and this scene he's telling a story with I have to believe it's real.

zobothehobo agrees: Thank you! I feel awesome and special! And I agree wih everything you've said here. =]

You should feel awesome and special. lol. Thanks, you've made some amazing points that I agree with as well.

 

[Flannen]

Just as you guys are cool with the way I roll, I'm cool with how you guys do. Just don't ever expect quotes from Joss or whoever to sway me in any way 😉😛 I've spent a lot of years studying literature and I watch TV and films just how I read my books. The Death of the Author is a hugely influential theory - not just something I read somewhere once 😛 - and it suits how I read texts perfectly. I'm not a fan of being told what to do, say or think! 😀

 

[InsaneMystic]

^ Flannie... Absolutely fine with your view of what's fact and what isn't. Indeed, the third Slayer who was called after The Gift is another prime example (yay me for bringing that other endless debate into this thread, too 😀); we have nothing to suggest otherwise on screen, so I'm certain there was one and we just never got to see her. Joss saying off screen that there weren't two Slayer lines past PG, three lines between Bargaining & Chosen, is basically just Joss' personal interpretation. 🙂

As for Buffy loving Spike, it's glaringly obvious to me that she did, at the very least from Showtime on onward. But then again, I've never seen anything to convince me there ever was real love between Buffy and that other vampire, off-screen statements nonewithstanding; so with so many people considering that other ship to be "obviously" full of love, it's a proof in point for the open-to-interpretation stance. 😉

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

That's absolutely fine with me.

And my point is, that Bella has absolutely nothing to do with this. I find it highly offensive to say that either character Bella or Buffy would have no respect for themselves if they would die for her man. Here's my point, Spike was dying to protect the woman that he loves and if he gets to save the world while doing so then that's a perk, does that mean that he has no self-respect for himself?

I'm not going to get into the Bella thing much more because I don't believe that she belongs in this discussion, but I will say that we all know that Spike was not EVERYTHING that Buffy ever was. Neither was Angel, if we're going there.

Fair enough. But, if we're really going to go there, none of us can really say what Buffy would've or couldn't of done in that situation. We know what Spike would do, he more than showed us that, but we can't say one way or another for a fact that Buffy would NEVER choose to stay there and burn with Spike if he had acknowledged that he knew she loved him and had said as much back to her.

We can say that we believe it would have or wouldn't have happened, based on evidence from various scenes, episodes, and dialog taken from them but we can't say for certain. As far as Spike not being an epic love for Buffy, to each their own. Some people believe that Buffy and Angel were some big epic love story meant to stand the test of time, I however, do not believe this.

I believe she loved him and I believe that he was her first big love, but I don't believe that it was more epic or was more meaningful than the love she felt for Spike.

The situation is completly different. Whole Spike sacraficing himself thing was to show us he's truly a champion, not that he doesn't have any respect for himself. He did what was needed. Buffy staying with him would be a suicide.

I never said the things I posted up there are facts, but my beliefs..

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The situation is completly different. Whole Spike sacraficing himself thing was to show us he's truly a champion, not that he doesn't have any respect for himself. He did what was needed. Buffy staying with him would be a suicide.

I never said the things I posted up there are facts, but my beliefs..

I really don't think Buffy would have seen it as suicide. I think she'd be so in love and caught up in the moment, she wouldn't even think live or die, neither of the both. And I also don't think that the fact that every slayer has a death wish has anything to do in this case, even though it was in Buffy's head in previous seasons. She just didn't think of anything at the point their hands held each other. She was only thinking of him and her love for him, the fact that she finally could do it freely. The chaos around didn't even accur to her, it was quiet, the mellow music in the background, and it was like they were the only two people existed in the world.

PrincessBuffy16 agrees: And considering the speach she gave to Angel the day before, I think that would have been out of the character.

As I said, she wouldn't be seen it as suicide. And in the end of season 5, she did kind of commit suicide. It wasn't just about saving Dawn and the world, she proved that every Slayer has a death wish. She told Giles that she doesn't know how to live in this world if those are the choice, and in general, that if life's like this - sucks. So that's not completely out of character.

 

[soulunsung]

The situation is completly different. Whole Spike sacraficing himself thing was to show us he's truly a champion, not that he doesn't have any respect for himself. He did what was needed. Buffy staying with him would be a suicide.

I never said the things I posted up there are facts, but my beliefs..

Of course, the situation would be completely different, as you see it. Those of us who love Spike and who truly admired the character and the changes that he went through over the seasons, already KNEW that he was a champion. For you to say that if Buffy had stayed there with him and died with him as well, would make her weak and would be suicide is completely offensive to those of us who don't believe that it would have been. Not to mention the way you say it - it's as if you're stating a fact when it's merely opinion.

When I read what you say, it's read in such a way that your purporting your thoughts as being based on fact, and all I was trying to do is tell you the same thing you told me - it's opinion and it's yours not necessarily everyone else's.

The main point of this thread originally was, "was Buffy really in love and did she love Spike, when she told him she loved him," and not "would Buffy had actually chosen to stay with Spike and burn as well if he had acknowledged that he believed she loved him?"

Some of us chose to believe that she might have actually stayed there, if he had admitted to her that he knew she loved him. We don't know for a fact that she would have, but because we love our ship so much we want to believe that she might have. Although we'll never know, because the show didn't end that way and Spike showed us all just exactly how much he really loved her by sacrificing himself to save BOTH her (first) AND then the world second.

Take for instance another show we'll call LOST and another epic couple we'll call Jin and Sun, in the end when Sun was dying and Jin had a chance to get out - he obviously chose to stay with her thereby leaving the baby that they had an orphan. I'm pretty sure that you'll tell me that's a different story all together, but still are you going to also tell me that it made Jin weak because he wanted to stay with the woman that he loved and not leave her to die alone? What about Jo's mother choosing to stay with her while she died on Supernatural last season, instead of leaving with Dean, Sam, and the rest of them and thereby saving her own life? She loved her daughter so much, that she would rather stay there and sacrifice her own life so that when her daughter died she would so knowing someone that loved her was there with her during her final moments on earth.

It didn't make either one of those character's weak in my eyes, so why on earth would it have made Buffy weak IF she had actually chosen to stay there with Spike IF he had acknowledged that he knew her love for him was real and he knew that she was in love with him?

We know that she didn't make that choice, but it wasn't because she wasn't given a chance to. It was because Spike was sacrificing himself for the woman that HE loves so that SHE would go on living so one of them was living THEN (secondly - because Buffy ALWAYS came first with him) he was also saving the world and becoming a true champion - the man worthy of her love. But I wager that he was already worthy of it long before Chosen and no one else is ever going to change my mind on that.

 

[StarSlayer]

^ It didn't come out right in the rep, but use

Spoiler

at the beginning and then [*/spoiler] at the end, minus the * You're new so you didn't know, but others might get mad 🙂

 

[soulunsung]

^ It didn't come out right in the rep, but use

Spoiler

at the beginning and then [*/spoiler] at the end, minus the * You're new so you didn't know, but others might get mad 🙂

Spoiler

I was wondering how do that myself and I do apologize for not investigating it any further. I didn't really mean to spoil you for Supernatural or anyone else for LOST. I just had a thought and I wanted to use examples.

My apologies. I would have gone back and edited, but the fifteen minutes are up. I wonder if the mods would go back and edit that portion for me, because I want to keep it there but don't want to leave it out in the open for other's to be spoiled.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Of course, the situation would be completely different, as you see it. Those of us who love Spike and who truly admired the character and the changes that he went through over the seasons, already KNEW that he was a champion. For you to say that if Buffy had stayed there with him and died with him as well, would make her weak and would be suicide is completely offensive to those of us who don't believe that it would have been. Not to mention the way you say it - it's as if you're stating a fact when it's merely opinion.

When I read what you say, it's read in such a way that your purporting your thoughts as being based on fact, and all I was trying to do is tell you the same thing you told me - it's opinion and it's yours not necessarily everyone else's.

The main point of this thread originally was, "was Buffy really in love and did she love Spike, when she told him she loved him," and not "would Buffy had actually chosen to stay with Spike and burn as well if he had acknowledged that he believed she loved him?"

Some of us chose to believe that she might have actually stayed there, if he had admitted to her that he knew she loved him. We don't know for a fact that she would have, but because we love our ship so much we want to believe that she might have. Although we'll never know, because the show didn't end that way and Spike showed us all just exactly how much he really loved her by sacrificing himself to save BOTH her (first) AND then the world second.

Take for instance another show we'll call LOST and another epic couple we'll call Jin and Sun, in the end when Sun was dying and Jin had a chance to get out - he obviously chose to stay with her thereby leaving the baby that they had an orphan. I'm pretty sure that you'll tell me that's a different story all together, but still are you going to also tell me that it made Jin weak because he wanted to stay with the woman that he loved and not leave her to die alone? What about Jo's mother choosing to stay with her while she died on Supernatural last season, instead of leaving with Dean, Sam, and the rest of them and thereby saving her own life? She loved her daughter so much, that she would rather stay there and sacrifice her own life so that when her daughter died she would so knowing someone that loved her was there with her during her final moments on earth.

It didn't make either one of those character's weak in my eyes, so why on earth would it have made Buffy weak IF she had actually chosen to stay there with Spike IF he had acknowledged that he knew her love for him was real and he knew that she was in love with him?

We know that she didn't make that choice, but it wasn't because she wasn't given a chance to. It was because Spike was sacrificing himself for the woman that HE loves so that SHE would go on living so one of them was living THEN (secondly - because Buffy ALWAYS came first with him) he was also saving the world and becoming a true champion - the man worthy of her love. But I wager that he was already worthy of it long before Chosen and no one else is ever going to change my mind on that.

And how do you know I don't like Spike? Excuse me, but I do like him. Maybe I'm more a fan of him when he's a big bad, but that doesn't mean I hate him. Just because I'm not a Spuffy fan, doesn't mean I'm a Spike or Buffy hater.
And I didn't realized stating my own opinions is cruel or ofensive. I thought this boards is all about that.. I'm here for over a year now, and I've heard a lot of things here that I didn't liked about the things I love in BtVS, but people have different opinions, and I've learned I can't change them, and they can't change mine. Everyone have a right to their own opinion, and I haven't heard that an opinion can be ofensive :/

As I said, she wouldn't be seen it as suicide. And in the end of season 5, she did kind of commit suicide. It wasn't just about saving Dawn and the world, she proved that every Slayer has a death wish. She told Giles that she doesn't know how to live in this world if those are the choice, and in general, that if life's like this - sucks. So that's not completely out of character.

But a lot of things have changed since since S5. Do you remember Buffy's speach to Dawn in the end of S6? After remembering that I truly can't belive she would gave her life.. not for Spike, not for Angel, not for Riley, not for Giles (etc) unless it's needed.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

But a lot of things have changed since since S5. Do you remember Buffy's speach to Dawn in the end of S6? After remembering that I truly can't belive she would gave her life.. not for Spike, not for Angel, not for Riley, not for Giles (etc) unless it's needed.

And another thing that has changed since then is, Buffy rather seeing Dawn dies than Spike. In season 7 Spike is the most important person in Buffy's life, for Buffy. He is her best friend, her closest ally, the one that's in her heart. I believe she'd do ANYTHING for him at this point. So why wouldn't she die for him? She almost did! When she had to fight that Turak-Kan (or whatever he's called), to save Spike, she could have died! She has risked her own life in the fight of her life - a whole world in serious danger - to save this man. She could have been killed in the proccess of saving Spike's life, and she did it anyway. So yeah, I think she'd die for him.

Oh, and don't be offended yourself. I don't think anyone here is really taking anything personally, not in a serious way of being really mad at each other. It's all good, we're exchanging thoughts and opinions! 🙂 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

And another thing that has changed since then is, Buffy rather seeing Dawn dies than Spike. In season 7 Spike is the most important person in Buffy's life, for Buffy. He is her best friend, her closest ally, the one that's in her heart. I believe she'd do ANYTHING for him at this point. So why wouldn't she die for him? She almost did! When she had to fight that Turak-Kan (or whatever he's called), to save Spike, she could have died! She has risked her own life in the fight of her life - a whole world in serious danger - to save this man. She could have been killed in the proccess of saving Spike's life, and she did it anyway. So yeah, I think she'd die for him.

Oh, and don't be offended yourself. I don't think anyone here is really taking anything personally, not in a serious way of being really mad at each other. It's all good, we're exchanging thoughts and opinions! 🙂 🙂

I belive she would die for him, if it's needed. But, I also belive she would die for Willow, or Xander.. if needed, again. I don't belive she would die with him. If the situation was the same, if Spike took the amulet and shined, and Buffy told him 'I love you' and he told her back, I don't belive she would stay.. I think she would be at peace. I think this situation is so hard because we never saw Buffy mourn over him. She probably did have a hard time, but we never saw her mourn.. so I think it's hard for us to imagine how she felt or what her regrets were.

I'm not offended, I just don't like when other people do, only because they can't accept someone elses opinion.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I belive she would die for him, if it's needed. But, I also belive she would die for Willow, or Xander.. if needed, again. I don't belive she would die with him. If the situation was the same, if Spike took the amulet and shined, and Buffy told him 'I love you' and he told her back, I don't belive she would stay.. I think she would be at peace. I think this situation is so hard because we never saw Buffy mourn over him. She probably did have a hard time, but we never saw her mourn.. so I think it's hard for us to imagine how she felt or what her regrets were.

I'm not offended, I just don't like when other people do, only because they can't accept someone elses opinion.

I guess we'll never know.
And I promise you she mourned. Not right after, but I promise you she did afterwards. We didn't see it because the show ended. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I have no doubt it happened. When she realized Spike was gonna die, she cried. Even before he died she mourned! Because she wasn't ready for him not to be there!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I guess we'll never know.
And I promise you she mourned. Not right after, but I promise you she did afterwards. We didn't see it because the show ended. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I have no doubt it happened. When she realized Spike was gonna die, she cried. Even before he died she mourned! Because she wasn't ready for him not to be there!

I belive she did. After all, she's a human being.😀

 

[white avenger]

I guess we'll never know.
And I promise you she mourned. Not right after, but I promise you she did afterwards. We didn't see it because the show ended. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I have no doubt it happened. When she realized Spike was gonna die, she cried. Even before he died she mourned! Because she wasn't ready for him not to be there!

This is one of the first things about Season 8 that made me feel robbed. There were such dramatic changes that had just been made, people lost, new Slayers to be located, organized, and trained, but most of all, there HAD to have been a period of mourning and recognition for the friends, allies, and lovers who never made it out of the hellmouth. Without being morbid on the subject, I feel that the the events that took place immediately after the destruction of Sunnydale were vital to the ongoing story and would have been well worth reading about.