Did Spike want his soul back?

[Gum Gnome33]

See I feel like Spike thought he had lost his chance with Buffy, so he wanted to remove the feelings he had for her.

This is exactly what I thought he was doing, the first time I watched it--before the demon put his soul back into him.

I actually think this line is perfect. It shows the anger Spike is trying to defect from himself (for the AR) and onto Buffy. He is feeling huge guilt for what happened and struggling with the fact that because of his nature he can't feel the full weight of that guilt. He doesn't understand why he did what he did but he also doesn't understand why he didn't finish the job (as horrible as that sounds)....That's why, I believe, he is so angry at Buffy. In his soulless mind it is partially her fault that he tried to rape her and in his mind it is entirely her fault regarding how he feels about it.

This is a fantastic theory--I totally buy it.

I was also just thinking about the fact that when he returns and is explaining himself to Buffy, he says, "It's what you wanted, right?" Then looks up to the ceiling and says, "It's what YOU wanted, right??" It's one of the only times on the show anyone acknowledges a belief in a more Judeo-Christian diety and this time it comes from a vampire. I don't know what that means--I mean in terms of a message from Joss who identifies as an athiest--(having a soul and feeling guilty makes one become G-d fearing?) Just thought I'd mention it.

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

I get what you mean, Spike was soulless so he couldn't fully understand his own feelings, and he didn't understand the difference between Buffy saying no and how she had said no many other times. The two are very similar, but was different on Buffy side this time, he just couldn't tell the difference.

I'd say what you men is Buffy is responsible for Spike's confusion, Spike would be accountable for his actions.

Yes, this is exactly what I think, as well.

For those who think he was going to get his soul, why do you think he hadn't done it before?

Good question! Honestly, I think it took hurting the woman he loved for him to finally realize that he would NEVER be good enough for her until he had a soul. Later on in season 7 when he is re-ensouled, he says that he never truly hated himself or understood how she couldn't be with him until he had his soul. I actually think that that moment when she pushes him off and says "ask me again why I could never love you" is a first glimpse into that realization, which pushes him toward making that move. Hurting Buffy gave him a glimpse at just how despicable a soulless being was...

 

[white avenger]

For those who think he was going to get his soul, why do you think he hadn't done it before?

Actually, I think that he had been thinking about it, maybe not very seriously, but enough that he had done some research on the matter. I think that he had found references to the cave demon in Africa and what it was capable of doing, maybe more in conjunction with deactivating the chip at first, but later, possibly after Buffy died, the thought of getting his soul restored as a sort of memorial to her could have occurred to him. Maybe he thought that getting his soul back would make the Scoobies trust him more, or that it would please dawn. Any or all of those reasons,or something else entirely.

Whatever the actual reason, the fact that Spike waqs able to just hop on his motorcycle and whiz off indicates to me that he knew exactly where he was going, had already researched just how to get there (traveling from California to Africa while avoiding sunlight would be a definite logistical problem, plus the cross country travel while in Africa). There were just too many unique details to be overcome for Spike's trip to and from Africa to have been just a spur of the moment thing. It would have HAD TO be planned well in advance.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Whatever the actual reason, the fact that Spike waqs able to just hop on his motorcycle and whiz off indicates to me that he knew exactly where he was going, had already researched just how to get there (traveling from California to Africa while avoiding sunlight would be a definite logistical problem, plus the cross country travel while in Africa). There were just too many unique details to be overcome for Spike's trip to and from Africa to have been just a spur of the moment thing. It would have HAD TO be planned well in advance.

Good point. Although, while I'd love to believe that he'd planned ahead specifically to get the soul--and I do hate to be the one to be cynical re Spike's progress-- I think it might be likely that he'd done the research with the intent of getting the chip removed, maybe sometime around the beginning of season 5. He might have even had it figured out before "Out of My Mind" and then figured, "hey, it'd be easier to make the surgeon do it."

Then, after the AR, he remembered what he'd learned about finding that demon and decided to go there for a soul instead. Maybe.

But like I said, I do like your theory better, at least for my own headcannon. 🙂

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Whatever the actual reason, the fact that Spike waqs able to just hop on his motorcycle and whiz off indicates to me that he knew exactly where he was going, had already researched just how to get there (traveling from California to Africa while avoiding sunlight would be a definite logistical problem, plus the cross country travel while in Africa). There were just too many unique details to be overcome for Spike's trip to and from Africa to have been just a spur of the moment thing. It would have HAD TO be planned well in advance.

This is another bit of writing that seems unrealistic. He could have asked Willow if he wanted his soul back and not had to travel anywhere. I'm sure she would have obliged (before Seeing Red, that is). The only impetus to get a soul would be that he knew Angel was Buffy's soulmate and to be a soulmate, you have to ante up a soul. Spike had been left once by Drusilla and now had lost any hope of being with Buffy and I believe he went to the demon to make things the way they were in the good old days when he had everything he wanted. And BTW, having a demon in charge of restoring souls? Is that not as contrary to demonic interests as it gets? Unless the First was behind it to get Spike back together with Buffy. And down the rabbit-hole I go.

 

[white avenger]

He could have asked Willow if he wanted his soul back and not had to travel anywhere.

And BTW, having a demon in charge of restoring souls? Is that not as contrary to demonic interests as it gets?

Unless the First was behind it to get Spike back together with Buffy.

I'm not so sure that Willow could restore a soul all by herslf at that time. Sure, she reinstated Angel's soul a couple of times, but that was basically just patching up a spell that already existed. Creating the spell from scratch might be far more complicated. Also,the spell that she performed still had that "one moment of complete happiness" clause in it, and I'm sure that Spike wanted the full package with no escape clause.

And, what's wrong with getting a demon to restore Spike's soul? Almost certainly, the cave demon had much more powerful magic at his command than any human could control, so it stands to reason that he could do the restoration job on a much more permanent basis than any human Gypsy.

I think that the First Evil was at least partially, if not wholly, responsible for getting Spike back to Sunnydale. Given Spike's condition, I seriously doubt that he could have made it all by himself. At best, in a tortured state, he would have been able to make it partway before collapsing. At that point, when his resistance was at its lowest,the F E would have taken possession of him and got him the rest of the way home.

And the question of the First Evil's involvement here has always made me wonder just why it tried to kill one ensouled vampire, then try to utilize another. I would think that Spike with a soul would be just as formidable an ally for Buffy as Angel ever could be, if not more so. Assuming that it knew in advance that a vampire with a soul would be chosen as he Slayer's Champion and wear the amulet in their final confrontation (there just HAD to be a prophecy about that somewhere): would explain its attempt to eliminate Angel, so why wouldn't the same hold true for Spike?

But then again, it did use Wood and Giles as more or less instruments for the attempt on Spike's life, once it became a certainty that Buffy, herself, couldn't be manipulated into staking him.

Of course, obviously, that's all just my wild, sometimes drug induced (all legal, with the prescriptions to prove it) imagination at work. Joss might have had the whole thing worked out in great detail, in a totally different way, and it all wound up on the cutting room floor.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Here's the thing about having a demon restore a soul: why would he? Especially for one that looked down upon Spike so heavily for his "human-ness", why would he intentionally make Spike MORE human/good?

If he's not giving Spike what he's asking for, so it's kind of a "joke's on you" type of thing, then it makes sense. But why would a demon be like, "oh okay, here's your soul"?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Here's the thing about having a demon restore a soul: why would he? Especially for one that looked down upon Spike so heavily for his "human-ness", why would he intentionally make Spike MORE human/good?
If he's not giving Spike what he's asking for, so it's kind of a "joke's on you" type of thing, then it makes sense. But why would a demon be like, "oh okay, here's your soul"?

That's a really great question.

Honestly, the way I always saw it was that this demon is a lot more like one of the Powers that Be than your run-of-the-mill monster type. These guys seem to really value balance and, in keeping with that, live by the code of upholding fairness for better or worse. Spike was able to "endure the required trails" and this demon had to respect that fact, regardless of how he felt about ensouling a demon. Because ultimately giving someone his due was held at a higher value.

Whereas some demons are just pure evil, (ie no moral code, just chaos and sadistic pleasure), others put a premium on "what's fair is fair." Ultimately, they are "bad guys" as they do far more harm than good and are not concerned with the well being of anyone in particular. But they can respect an agreement. I just realized that another example of such a demon is Whatshisface from "Once More With Feeling." He let Buffy "win" by keeping his word and then didn't take Dawn with him to the underworld since it'd been Xander that summoned him. He could easily have taken her--he clearly wanted to--but it was more important to him that he couldn't take someone who didn't summon him. Because he wasn't interested in making Xander his "bride," he let him go. Again, ultimately a bad guy who values balance and fairness more than death and destruction.

Another thought: suppose this demon really did want to make Spike's life a living hell; I think that he knew how much pain he'd cause Spike by giving him exactly what he wanted: his soul. The demon probably figured he wouldn't even make it back to Sunnydale before staking himself, you know?

 

[white avenger]

Here's the thing about having a demon restore a soul: why would he? Especially for one that looked down upon Spike so heavily for his "human-ness", why would he intentionally make Spike MORE human/good?

If he's not giving Spike what he's asking for, so it's kind of a "joke's on you" type of thing, then it makes sense. But why would a demon be like, "oh okay, here's your soul"?

Maybe it's like "The Monkey's Paw," where you get your wish,bt there's always a severe penalty for it. No one can say that Spike didn't suffer once his wish was fulfilled, and Angel could certainly testify, the feeling of guilt is always there, in the background, ready to weigh you down. Just because Spike doesn't dwell on it as outwardly as Angel does doesn't mean that he never feels it.

 

[Robb Stark]

And the question of the First Evil's involvement here has always made me wonder just why it tried to kill one ensouled vampire, then try to utilize another. I would think that Spike with a soul would be just as formidable an ally for Buffy as Angel ever could be, if not more so. Assuming that it knew in advance that a vampire with a soul would be chosen as he Slayer's Champion and wear the amulet in their final confrontation (there just HAD to be a prophecy about that somewhere): would explain its attempt to eliminate Angel, so why wouldn't the same hold true for Spike?

It should be noted that The First qualifies as one of the single dumbest bad guys ever. It spent so much time stroking it's proverbial mustache and trying to sound clever, which made the viewer think there was some awesome plan at the end of the road but really, there wasn't.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm not so sure that Willow could restore a soul all by herslf at that time. Sure, she reinstated Angel's soul a couple of times, but that was basically just patching up a spell that already existed. Creating the spell from scratch might be far more complicated. Also,the spell that she performed still had that "one moment of complete happiness" clause in it, and I'm sure that Spike wanted the full package with no escape clause.

The spell she used wasn't a patch, she literately did the spell that was done by the gypsy back then, not a different one to patch the spell up.

And the question of the First Evil's involvement here has always made me wonder just why it tried to kill one ensouled vampire, then try to utilize another. I would think that Spike with a soul would be just as formidable an ally for Buffy as Angel ever could be, if not more so. Assuming that it knew in advance that a vampire with a soul would be chosen as he Slayer's Champion and wear the amulet in their final confrontation (there just HAD to be a prophecy about that somewhere): would explain its attempt to eliminate Angel, so why wouldn't the same hold true for Spike?

*Awkwardly sidesteps the 'Even the first didn't think Buffy/Spike would last' comment*

But then again, it did use Wood and Giles as more or less instruments for the attempt on Spike's life, once it became a certainty that Buffy, herself, couldn't be manipulated into staking him.

How? I don't remember the First having a part in trying to kill Spike through Wood?

I think that the First Evil was at least partially, if not wholly, responsible for getting Spike back to Sunnydale. Given Spike's condition, I seriously doubt that he could have made it all by himself. At best, in a tortured state, he would have been able to make it partway before collapsing. At that point, when his resistance was at its lowest,the F E would have taken possession of him and got him the rest of the way home.

That's a really great question.

Honestly, the way I always saw it was that this demon is a lot more like one of the Powers that Be than your run-of-the-mill monster type. These guys seem to really value balance and, in keeping with that, live by the code of upholding fairness for better or worse. Spike was able to "endure the required trails" and this demon had to respect that fact, regardless of how he felt about ensouling a demon. Because ultimately giving someone his due was held at a higher value.

But there isn't anything in the show that even hints at the possibilities of either of these are true. I love a good theory but there isn't anything that indicates The First took control of Spike to get him home.

I would think it's far more likely Spike got his soul, was upset about things but was still able to get back to Sunnydale to show off his new soul to Buffy, once there he didn't know how to approach her and hid in the basement, where the First messed with his head further and then he became the wacko we see in Beneath You, but that was with the First messing with him, not just his soul.
Spike was crazy but he was still a highly functioning crazy person.

There's also nothing indicating the demon he goes to is a good demon, or wanted to keep balance, there's evidence that he's connect to vengeance demons, but I think making him out to be a force or good(or balance) is just trying to make Spike going to him seem better.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

There's also nothing indicating the demon he goes to is a good demon, or wanted to keep balance, there's evidence that he's connect to vengeance demons, but I think making him out to be a force or good(or balance) is just trying to make Spike going to him seem better.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean that the fact that Spike went to a demon that values balance or order makes Spike's deed any better (or worse). It says nothing about Spike that this demon played by the rules. I don't even think Spike knew who the heck he'd be dealing with, other than the fact that he might get what he wanted out of it.

Remember, I'm not saying the demon was good, either. Just fair. The evidence of this is the fact that after Spike endures the required trials, he gives him what he asks for.

Sorry to be dense for a moment: where does the theory that this demon is connected to vengeance demons come from? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times and I feel like I'm going crazy bc I'm missing something lol!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just to be clear, I didn't mean that the fact that Spike went to a demon that values balance or order makes Spike's deed any better (or worse). It says nothing about Spike that this demon played by the rules. I don't even think Spike knew who the heck he'd be dealing with, other than the fact that he might get what he wanted out of it.

Remember, I'm not saying the demon was good, either. Just fair. The evidence of this is the fact that after Spike endures the required trials, he gives him what he asks for.

Sorry to be dense for a moment: where does the theory that this demon is connected to vengeance demons come from? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times and I feel like I'm going crazy bc I'm missing something lol!

It's kinda vague but the connection comes from the paintings on the wall on the cave.
When Spike first goes into the cave there's a painting of a stick women flaying someone and another of a man with a stitched up mouth - Spike would have got to Africa after Willow had done all that, so it works out time wise to be pictures of what Willow did to Warren.
Then in Season 7 when Willow calls D'Hoffryn to get Anya released he says he was expecting her call, that her vengeance is "water cooler vengeance" to the other vengeance demons, and that one of the demons Lloyd has a painting of it on his wall.
So that kinda implies that the demon that returned Spikes soul was named Lloyd and he has some connection to vengeance demons.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

It's kinda vague but the connection comes from the paintings on the wall on the cave.
When Spike first goes into the cave there's a painting of a stick women flaying someone and another of a man with a stitched up mouth - Spike would have got to Africa after Willow had done all that, so it works out time wise to be pictures of what Willow did to Warren.
Then in Season 7 when Willow calls D'Hoffryn to get Anya released he says he was expecting her call, that her vengeance is "water cooler vengeance" to the other vengeance demons, and that one of the demons Lloyd has a painting of it on his wall.
So that kinda implies that the demon that returned Spikes soul was named Lloyd and he has some connection to vengeance demons.

Ah yes thanks, I totally know what you mean now. So it does seem highly likely that Lloyd is a vengeance demon. So he isn't the same kind of demon as the one in OMWF, but I still think he values balance or a sense of "you reap what you sow."
Actually, vengeance demons can be known for that; Halfrek tells a story of avenging a man who wouldn't pay child support by giving him a paper cut every time he touched anything that wasn't meant to be payment toward his child.

Anyway, I think this works well into the idea that either a) the demon merely wanted to give Spike what he'd earned, or b) wanted to make him miserable by giving him exactly what he wanted which actually is the perfect "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

 

[white avenger]

The spell she used wasn't a patch, she literately did the spell that was done by the gypsy back then, not a different one to patch the spell up.



*Awkwardly sidesteps the 'Even the first didn't think Buffy/Spike would last' comment*


How? I don't remember the First having a part in trying to kill Spike through Wood?






But there isn't anything in the show that even hints at the possibilities of either of these are true. I love a good theory but there isn't anything that indicates The First took control of Spike to get him home.

I would think it's far more likely Spike got his soul, was upset about things but was still able to get back to Sunnydale to show off his new soul to Buffy, once there he didn't know how to approach her and hid in the basement, where the First messed with his head further and then he became the wacko we see in Beneath You, but that was with the First messing with him, not just his soul.
Spike was crazy but he was still a highly functioning crazy person.

There's also nothing indicating the demon he goes to is a good demon, or wanted to keep balance, there's evidence that he's connect to vengeance demons, but I think making him out to be a force or good(or balance) is just trying to make Spike going to him seem better.

Okay, the spell that Willow used might not have been a patch (bad wording on my part) but it was essentially just a duplicate of the original Gypsy spell,with happiness clause intact.Spike wouldn't want that with his soul. He would want the full,permanent, non-revokable version, with no trick clauses involved.

And whether or not Buffy and Spike are "forever," he was still the ensouled vampire who wore the amulet in the Hellmouth. Maybe Angel would have done it if Spike hadn't been there, or maybe Buffy would still have sent him back to LA and let Faith wear the amulet. We'll never know. But the fact remains that, as things played out, Spike was the ensouled vampire who was Buffy's Champion and was instrumental in bringing about the First Evil's defeat. Whether or not they would have stayed together after that if he hadn't incinerated, once again, we'll never know.

I would call appearing to Wood in his mother's body and telling him that Spike was the vampire he'd been hunting for all those years, knowing exactly what Wood would do with that knowledge pretty blatant in it's intent. The First knew that Wood couldn't resist trying to kill Spike once he knew.

You're right about there not being any evidence to indicate that the F E was instrumental in returning Spike to Sunnydale. It would all depend on Spike's mental state between the time that he received his soul and his returning to Sunnydale. He COULD have held it together all of that time, but it stands to reason that, if he hadn't, the First would have been more than happy to oblige, since at least part of its plan depended on the disruption that Spike could cause once he got there.

 

[SlayerPrincess]

Wasent there a scene in season 7 where Buffy was yelling at everybody in the kitchen and she told Spike he's gone soft (something about wheres the man that tried to kill her when they first met) and she mentioned him having a soul and he was like "i did that for you!" And i do remember Joss saying he was trying to fool you, so yea, to me he was going to get his soul. I know he was talking crazy to the demon but remember he was crazy...and ...evil and mad. And not sayin its a good thing cause its definatly not but I know that alot of guys call their girlfriends names when they're mad at them so why wouldent an evil vampire. Also if he asked for the chip to be removed why would a DEMON restore his soul? Just sayin.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Wasent there a scene in season 7 where Buffy was yelling at everybody in the kitchen and she told Spike he's gone soft (something about wheres the man that tried to kill her when they first met) and she mentioned him having a soul and he was like "i did that for you!"

I once heard one of the marketing people I worked with utter a profound truth:

"If you can't fix it, feature it."

Spike ended up with a soul and has tried to impress Buffy with it since he got it back, but that does not mean it was the outcome he was looking for originally.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Spike ended up with a soul and has tried to impress Buffy with it since he got it back, but that does not mean it was the outcome he was looking for originally.

Spike may have originally sought out the soul to impress Buffy, but once he had it in season 7, he did not try to impress her with it. Initially his plan was to conceal it; he only revealed it in a moment of overwhelming guilt and anguish.

Shouting at her, "I did it for you!" was inspired by the fact that he was utterly indignant after Buffy told him-- the guy who had been fighting for a long time against his nature for her sake-- to act evil again, for her sake. It was an incredibly insensitive and unreasonable demand from Buffy in light of all that Spike was struggling with, and I think that reminding her of his original inspiration was fitting and appropriate, (and born of anger), not an attempt at impressing her.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Also if he asked for the chip to be removed why would a DEMON restore his soul? Just sayin.

Why would a demon restore his soul anyway?

 

[Anca]

Also if he asked for the chip to be removed why would a DEMON restore his soul? Just sayin.

A "LEGEND" - somebody that will deal with supernatural/magical forces. The chip was man-made, science, if Spike wanted it removed why wouldn't he go to the nearby LA and seek W&H? Probably they would had gladly employed the services of a "vicious, evil, soulless" vampire for that small impediment (removing the chip).

I didn't saw any reason for it to be the chip, he already could hurt Buffy, hurting her family or friends wasn't his style and Spike already tried in Entropy (with no luck) to escape his feelings.

Apparently I was the only one who believed that Spike would regain his humanity (that restoration word fooled me). Of course, there were a couple of sings before, Tabula Rasa "I'm a vampire with a soul", Once More With Feeling "Someday he'll be a real boy"-Pinocchio, "Can't be a monster, can't be a man" => that was a signal for something in between - monster with soul. So, yes, I felt tricked.

As for the "bitch" line, OMWF: I hope she fries, I'm free if that bitch dies, I'll better help her out

Plus it's "Out.For.A.Walk...Bitch" Spike - he'll say that kind of things, he's soulless

 

[SlayerPrincess]

As for the "bitch" line, OMWF: I hope she fries, I'm free if that bitch dies, I'll better help her out

Plus it's "Out.For.A.Walk...Bitch" Spike - he'll say that kind of things, he's soulless

Yea see lol but it was funny then