Did Spuffy help Buffy's Depression?

[hoponlilmama]

The fundamental problem with S6 and S7 was Marti Noxon:
1. She did not know how to run a show,.she was.learning as she went and she made some huge mistakes.
2. Her Vision for BTVS was completely different from S1 thru S5.
3. Noxon, like Whedon, thought the comments from the 1% of the audience that posted on The Bronze and other boards, gave her a much better insight into the other 99% of the audience than the tried and true techniques used by 20th's Marketing Dept.
4. Like Whedon, she did not respond well to constructive criticism from the studio or the network.
5. She bullied her actors when they did not agree with her.

Noxon was determined to tell the story she wanted to tell in the manner she wanted to tell it. Unfortunately, her audience did not care for her story or how she told it. And her stars did not care for her dictatorial management style. After one season in charge, her network quietly asked that she be replaced and her primary star was.credibly threatening to publically quit over Noxon's storytelling.

Of course, Whedon loved Noxon, so, she remained showrunner to the end.

Do we think if Joss didn't have multiple projects running he still would've remained in charge of BTVS? Or he would've put MN in the driver's seat anyway?

Very disappointed on points #3 and #5.

 

[NotASlayer]

2. Her Vision for BTVS was completely different from S1 thru S5.

One of the, many, fundamental problems with S6&7 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is that they are not seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. They are not even about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. S6 is about Willow and then Spike and S7 is about Spike and then, way behind, Andrew. Buffy herself just has screen time and in S7 isn't a character any longer, but a motivation for Spike. So, what started out as a series about a strong female character fighting vampires, demons and evil became a series about an abusive male vampire and how his abuse finally broke her.

 

[garfan]

Well..... The focus on giving Buffy a love interest and making said love interest Spike to make the Spuffies happy cost Whedon & Co the show.

SMG despised the S6 Spuffy storyline and she and Whedon and Noxon had it out over and over and over again. SMG was so disgusted that she refused to extend her contract even when offered a salary equivalent to what the Friends stars were making.

To extend, SMG demanded a form of script approval. When 20th considered it, Whedon went ballistic and threatened to quit the show so 20th refused SMG and SMG refused to extend.

And so Buffy staggered into its finale.

Personally, I dont thing S6 was worth it.

of course hating the season 6 Spuffy storyline doesn't equate to hating the concept of Spuffy totally. It could have worked better.

I wish Joss had quite the show and we had gotten a season 8

and no, considering season 6 was pure shit so it definitely wasn't worth it

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Spike gaslit her, isolated her and took advantage of her depression. Otherwise she never had any interest in him and if Buffy hadn't died, wouldn't have gotten together with Spike.

Buffy isolated herself.

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I think that one of the show's messages is not to confuse the physical intimacy provided by casual sex with the emotional intimacy provided by a mature relationship. Buffy's issues in season 6 were spiritual and emotional, and to solve them, she needed to reconnect with her friends and family, not due to unsatiated carnal lust. Sex with Spike may make her physically feel better, but it wasn't going help her work through her issues with depression.

which is very much a problem because looking around a significant number of Buffyverse fans are pro casual sex and have a real distaste for how it's portrayed in the show

 

[hoponlilmama]

of course hating the season 6 Spuffy storyline doesn't equate to hating the concept of Spuffy totally. It could have worked better.

I wish Joss had quite the show and we had gotten a season 8

and no, considering season 6 was pure shit so it definitely wasn't worth it

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Buffy isolated herself.

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which is very much a problem because looking around a significant number of Buffyverse fans are pro casual sex and have a real distaste for how it's portrayed in the show

She did isolate herself (which she's done in the past), but he contributed to her isolation.
Looking back years later on it - after s7, I'm kinda glad we didn't get s8. It was too much of a mess to clean up.

I'd rather we had gotten s6 of AtS.

 

[garfan]

She did isolate herself (which she's done in the past), but he contributed to her isolation.
Looking back years later on it - after s7, I'm kinda glad we didn't get s8. It was too much of a mess to clean up.

I'd rather we had gotten s6 of AtS.

AtS without Cordy sucked. And BtVS with a season 8 would have had a different season 7

I don't think Spike contributed to Buffy's isolation. The Scoobies didn't trust him so they didn't go like well Buffy's with Spike so she's not alone. So that means absent Spike their behavior doesn't change. But Buffy wouldn't be changing her behavior so without Spike she just ends up totally alone

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Something that seems to be forgotten is the nature of the "depression" Buffy is suffering from. She is sufficiently different after she came back that Spike can punch her without any effect from the chip. This means Buffy is different. She goes to Tara for an explanation and gets the response that her cells operate like they have been sunburned and this is the reason that she is different from anyone else in the world that Spike can't hit without consequences.

I have always seen depression to be a metabolic chemistry issue. Lack of neurotransmitters is the common cause but people tend to confuse psychological issues with body chemistry. We can say that lead poisoning makes a person more combative and this is understood to a point but we tend to confuse the underlying disease with the psychological effect it has.

Buffy is suffering from PTSD but does not appear to be suffering from depression. Depression would mean that she is unable to do simple things like dress herself or perform other such basic functions. We don't see anything like this.

Buffy's friends have shown themselves to be judgemental and to an extent, conceited. When Buffy talks to Spike about how she thought she was in heaven when she got pulled out, this is not a conversation she could have had with the scoobies - they would see it as being ungrateful. This is the great secret revealed in "Once More with Feeling" and Spike is the one to stop her from catching fire. By the time we get to "Gone", Buffy finally forgives Willow for bringing her back.

In answer to the thread title, yes, Spike helped Buffy but he helped her with PTSD, not depression.

 

[hoponlilmama]

AtS without Cordy sucked. And BtVS with a season 8 would have had a different season 7

Your personal opinion. We have Cordy in s4, but she's given an awful storyline.
After getting a little off track during S4, I think S5 of Angel is great. But yes, I would've liked to have Cordy there, even if her role was reduced.

Something that seems to be forgotten is the nature of the "depression" Buffy is suffering from. She is sufficiently different after she came back that Spike can punch her without any effect from the chip. This means Buffy is different. She goes to Tara for an explanation and gets the response that her cells operate like they have been sunburned and this is the reason that she is different from anyone else in the world that Spike can't hit without consequences.

She's different on a molecular level, but essentially she's still the same Buffy.

Buffy is suffering from PTSD but does not appear to be suffering from depression. Depression would mean that she is unable to do simple things like dress herself or perform other such basic functions. We don't see anything like this.

Everyone is different, and it can depend on the severity, but you can have depression and still function, performing daily tasks.
She could have PTSD and be depressed. Poor girl came back traumatised.

Buffy's friends have shown themselves to be judgemental and to an extent, conceited. When Buffy talks to Spike about how she thought she was in heaven when she got pulled out, this is not a conversation she could have had with the scoobies - they would see it as being ungrateful. This is the great secret revealed in "Once More with Feeling" and Spike is the one to stop her from catching fire. By the time we get to "Gone", Buffy finally forgives Willow for bringing her back.

He's an outsider - they're not friends so she's able to tell him about it.
Clearly those who brought her back didn't think about the 'after'. I guess they assumed she'd be her usual perky self.
This was the season where suddenly everyone was wrapped up in their own business and failing to check in on the girl brought back from the dead.

 

[NotASlayer]

He's an outsider - they're not friends so she's able to tell him about it.
Clearly those who brought her back didn't think about the 'after'. I guess they assumed she'd be her usual perky self.
This was the season where suddenly everyone was wrapped up in their own business and failing to check in on the girl brought back from the dead.

Admittedly, this is to a large extent due to no-one knowing what she had been through. Which seems to go back to Willow not doing enough research. It seems that Angel's experience - falling into a Hell Portal sent him to a Hell Dimension and when he came back he popped out of nowhere - influenced what they thought had happened to Buffy.

If someone is believed to have been rescued from a Hell Dimension, no-one is going to expect her to be suffering from anything. And by the time they found out the truth, Buffy had been lying to them for some time (though I can understand why) and things had gotten messy.

If only she had spoken to, say, Tara immediately.

 

[garfan]

Your personal opinion. We have Cordy in s4, but she's given an awful storyline.

Imo we have Charisma in season 4. Amnesia and possession combine to make the character on screen not Cordelia

Admittedly, this is to a large extent due to no-one knowing what she had been through. Which seems to go back to Willow not doing enough research. It seems that Angel's experience - falling into a Hell Portal sent him to a Hell Dimension and when he came back he popped out of nowhere - influenced what they thought had happened to Buffy.

If someone is believed to have been rescued from a Hell Dimension, noone is going to expect her to be suffering from anything. And by the time they found out the truth, Buffy had been lying to them for some time (though I can understand why) and things had gotten messy.

If only she had spoken to, say, Tara immediately.

Yeah people overlook they had experience with someone recoverin
g from a hell dimension in the past.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Willow's reasoning on hell is never explained. It's possible they don't know a lot about other dimensions at this point, they are going by the horrors they saw in The Gift. I can't see Anya visiting heaven a lot, so, she might only know it as a rumor. Or, what they do know of heaven is the same they know of the Powers, benevolent higher lifeforms, to be certain, but with an alien sense of morality who have their own agenda and certainly not privy to the ultimate mysteries.

All I can guess, is that Willow has additional insights on how souls and the afterlife work, that we are not privy to

 

[hoponlilmama]

Imo we have Charisma in season 4. Amnesia and possession combine to make the character on screen not Cordelia

I think most of us are trying to forget s4 of AtS... 🤣 but I get your point!

Admittedly, this is to a large extent due to no-one knowing what she had been through. Which seems to go back to Willow not doing enough research. It seems that Angel's experience - falling into a Hell Portal sent him to a Hell Dimension and when he came back he popped out of nowhere - influenced what they thought had happened to Buffy.

True. This is what I have always believed; the Scoobies automatically assumed portal = hell dimension. They worked with what they know, and thought they were rescuing Buffy.

Now realistically, if Willow and co. had consulted Giles, he would've explained that's not necessarily the case.

Of course, if they had managed to contact Buffy and she told them she was in Heaven and at peace...we wouldn't get s6. The show would've ended at s5 as planned.

Basically, they worked on a lot of assumptions: the actual resurrection - seems like the gang assumed she'd just magically appear beside them. The assumption she'd been in some kind of hell dimension. And the assumption she'd automatically be happy being back.

If only she had spoken to, say, Tara immediately.

If only!

 

[NotASlayer]

Willow's reasoning on hell is never explained. It's possible they don't know a lot about other dimensions at this point, they are going by the horrors they saw in The Gift. I can't see Anya visiting heaven a lot, so, she might only know it as a rumor. Or, what they do know of heaven is the same they know of the Powers, benevolent higher lifeforms, to be certain, but with an alien sense of morality who have their own agenda and certainly not privy to the ultimate mysteries.

All I can guess, is that Willow has additional insights on how souls and the afterlife work, that we are not privy to

Heck, we don't even know if there is just one heaven. There could be many. Which ones would you check?

True. This is what I have always believed; the Scoobies automatically assumed portal = hell dimension. They worked with what they know, and thought they were rescuing Buffy.

Especially as, in this case, it was a portal to a hell dimension; Glory's home dimension.

Of course, if they had managed to contact Buffy and she told them she was in Heaven and at peace...we wouldn't get s6. The show would've ended at s5 as planned.

Well, we could have had a better S6! Say, they know Buffy is in heaven but there is a threat that only she can deal with. She comes back willingly and we lose all the Spuffy awfulness, even if she still suffers from leaving heaven, because everyone knows about it.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Heck, we don't even know if there is just one heaven. There could be many. Which ones would you check?

Tara even said so, "she could've been in one of a zillion heavenly dimensions.."

Especially as, in this case, it was a portal to a hell dimension; Glory's home dimension.

Exactly. Seemed obvious to them given the situation.

Well, we could have had a better S6! Say, they know Buffy is in heaven but there is a threat that only she can deal with. She comes back willingly and we lose all the Spuffy awfulness, even if she still suffers from leaving heaven, because everyone knows about it.

This is why I love this forum - I've read so many great ideas from people (not just for s6) that would have been MUCH better than what we got!

 

[NoShip]

If one throws Willows knowledge of Angel's return in S3 into the mix,Willow does not look so reckless. Especially the not digging up Buffy's coffin.

Personally, it is hard to form an opinion I can stick with because we know nothing of what Willow actually knew versus what she assumed.

Nevertheless, to me, the episode indicates that Willow is being unconsciencely reckless because she knows nothing and assumes everything about Buffy's status and she does not even fully understand the magics or the ritual. If she did, Buffy would not have awoken inside a coffin buried under 6 feet of dirt. Most damningly, she hid her preparations from Giles, so, on some level, she knew what she was attempting was very wrong.

I can think of many better ways to resurrect Buffy, but, this is the story Whedon-Noxon wanted to tell and they didn't really care what their audience thought. So, we got the season we got. And Buffy's audience ended up dropping 20% because of it.

 

[garfan]

Nevertheless, to me, the episode indicates that Willow is being unconsciencely reckless because she knows nothing and assumes everything about Buffy's status and she does not even fully understand the magics or the ritual. If she did, Buffy would not have awoken inside a coffin buried under 6 feet of dirt. Most damningly, she hid her preparations from Giles, so, on some level, she knew what she was attempting was very wrong.

of course we don't kbow that would have happened to Buffy if the spell hadn't been interrupted.

I also think it's wrong to just say she was excluding Giles because she knew it was wrong.

The previous year Giles had put himself on the kill the innocent to save the world side, while Buffy had declared that unacceptable. This could be Willow trying to be Buffy like but not quite ready for the whole disobey me and I'll kill you thing that Buffy pulled so she keeps it secret. And by Buffy like I mean risking everything for the person you feel you have to save

 

[VampireSlayer07]

Tara even said so, "she could've been in one of a zillion heavenly dimensions.."


Exactly. Seemed obvious to them given the situation.


This is why I love this forum - I've read so many great ideas from people (not just for s6) that would have been MUCH better than what we got!

Which brings up a question. Because it is considered heavenly does not make it good necessarily, we as humans only make that assumption with no proof to back that up based on religious belief (the less I say there the better lol). The only indication we have is Buffy said she was 'happy and at peace' but do we really know why that was?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Heavens: Of course, Tara says as much. Then Skip a season later says that no one leaves Heaven. But, Skip is a liar, maybe. None of TPTB is answered in a satisfying manner.

Frankly, all the drama in Season Six comes from Buffy being in a state of peace, then being pulled out of it. I don't think it really works to "subvert expectations" about the afterlife in a story like this. They kinda of do that in Season 4 of Angel, to mixed results.

 

[garfan]

Re: Heavens: Of course, Tara says as much. Then Skip a season later says that no one leaves Heaven. But, Skip is a liar, maybe. None of TPTB is answered in a satisfying manner.

Frankly, all the drama in Season Six comes from Buffy being in a state of peace, then being pulled out of it. I don't think it really works to "subvert expectations" about the afterlife in a story like this. They kinda of do that in Season 4 of Angel, to mixed results.

I mean the way she described her heavenly dimension didn't sound that heavenly to me, her friends were certainly not safe and just a sense of Joyce being near rather than being with her. Not good enough for me. She should not have been in a state of peace from what she described

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I mean the way she described her heavenly dimension didn't sound that heavenly to me, her friends were certainly not safe and just a sense of Joyce being near rather than being with her. Not good enough for me. She should not have been in a state of peace from what she described

According to Beljoxa's Eye, the First only returned because the return of Buffy left the balance of good and evil too far in the good direction, so they would have been safe from the First, the Bringers and the Turok Han (and maybe Caleb) if Buffy had been left in the ground. Her friends were as safe as they had ever been until the resurrection and Willow had no trouble finding Faith when more firepower was needed.

 

[garfan]

According to Beljoxa's Eye, the First only returned because the return of Buffy left the balance of good and evil too far in the good direction, so they would have been safe from the First, the Bringers and the Turok Han (and maybe Caleb) if Buffy had been left in the ground. Her friends were as safe as they had ever been until the resurrection and Willow had no trouble finding Faith when more firepower was needed.

only cause someone had already busted Faith out