Did Xander appreciate Spike and Angel?

[Chosen Enemy]

Xander had always been hostile regarding to the two main vampires on the show, Angel and Spike. Both vampires did a lot of good things, they've helped, they've saved lives. But it seems that Xander never really appreciated that fact. Even when they had souls.
Do you think he appreciates them from time to time, even a little? If he does, will he ever admit that? Will he ever thank them?

 

[sosa lola]

I think Xander appreciated Spike and Angel more than they did him, to be honest. Yes, he was openly more hostile, but at least he noticed them. They never noticed him on the other hand and always looked at him as a waste of space.

I think by S7, Xander has matured completely to appreciate the good Angel and Spike had done.

 

[This Year's Girl]

I think he appriciated them somewhere deep down, I hope so anyway. I was honestly very annoyed at the fact that he acted so hostile against them. They obviously helped a lot and saved his life more than once. He didn't have to like them, it was not like they did any super effort to get to know him either, but he should've showed that he accepted that they were there. Instead he acted like a jerk most of the time. I'm thinking it was some kind of defence mechanism from his part or something, but it still bugged me. 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

I loved when Xander acknowledged that he does act like a jerk to Buffy when it concerns Angel and Spike. Those moments in Amends and Seeing Red with Xander making peace with Buffy about Angel and Spike are among my favorite Xander moments.

 

[Kean]

I think Xander appreciated Spike and Angel more than they did him, to be honest. Yes, he was openly more hostile, but at least he noticed them. They never noticed him on the other hand and always looked at him as a waste of space.

I think by S7, Xander has matured completely to appreciate the good Angel and Spike had done.

I'd say the opposite. I don't think Xander appreciated Angel or Spike at all. Both Angel and Spike, and their place in Buffy's life never appeared to be something Xander understood, nor did he appear to want to understand it. However I do think Angel and Spike respected (sometimes envied) Xander's closeness with Buffy. They knew he was important to her, both as combative ally and a friend.

 

[sosa lola]

I'd say the opposite. I don't think Xander appreciated Angel or Spike at all. Both Angel and Spike, and their place in Buffy's life never appeared to be something Xander understood, nor did he appear to want to understand it. However I do think Angel and Spike respected (sometimes envied) Xander's closeness with Buffy. They knew he was important to her, both as combative ally and a friend.

On the contrary, I've seen Xander express gratitude and appreciation toward Angel and Spike more than the opposite. I also seen him express jealousy and dislike more. It shows that Xander notices them. On the other hand, Spike and Angel rarely notice Xander's existence, and if his name came into conversation they're either indifferent or disdained. When in danger, Angel and Spike have saved Xander more, but when it comes to friendly gestures Xander has showed more of that toward them than they did toward him.

I've written a list of the good moments between Xander, Spike and Angel a long time ago. I'll have to find it. 😀

 

[Kana]

Angel was kind of a nice to Xander in the Zeppo. At the very least he wasn't rude and seemed openly concerned about his well being. I just think he had more of a connection with Giles and Willow. I think he always thought he had a soft spot for Willow.

 

[white avenger]

I think that both Angel and Spike saw Xander as the least asset in Buffy's team, and that is exactly what he was (well, at least until Anya came along, then he became the SECOND least) As he himself pointed out in Season 7, he was the one who "saw" things. Certainly, he didn't just sit back and watch while everybody else did the fighting, he did his fair share of that to the best of his ability. The problem was, his "fair share" just wasn't all that much when compared to what everyone else was capable of. He had the spirit, he just didn't have the muscle to go with it.

Xander, I think, on the other hand, looked at Angel first with apprehension, then awe. Unfortunately, along with that awe came both jealousy (remember, Xander got the "I don't think of you that way" speech from Buffy the first, and only, time that he ever asked him out, whereas Buffy was so obviously mesmerized by Angel almost from the first moment that she laid eyes on him that it would be impossible to either miss or ignore) jealousy became hate and fear, of Angelus, and from then on, I don't think that he ever saw him as anything more than Angelus with a muzzle, someone never to be fully trusted or liked again, despite his soul.

When Spike came along, the process was almost exactly the opposite. First, he saw Spike as the monster to be hated and feared, then as the same monster with the chip serving as his muzzle, then as a "soulless monster, an asset in a fight, but never a friend or even really a part of the Scooby team, and, then, toward the end, with a certain amount of apprehension, after he learned that Spike had regained his soul, gratitude, after he helped Xander get away from Caleb,and finally, though this is just conjecture, since we never saw it on screen, awe at Spike's sacrifice in closing off the hellmouth.

Also, though Xander was a hero, and he never really doubted it, he also never doubted that both Angel and Spike were champions, and he was always a bit jealous of the fact.

 

[sosa lola]

Here's the list I've written years ago, Kana.



Angel to Xander:

- Saving Xander's life along with Giles and Willow in Out of Mind, Out of Sight

- Flashing a smile at Xander when Xander rescued Buffy in Prophecy Girl

- In Halloween, Angel ignored Buffy and Cordelia and hurried to help Xander beat up Larry.

- In The Zeppo, Angel thought it was better for Xander's safety to stay away from anything related to the apocalypse.

- In Consequences, Angel saved Xander's life from Faith.

- Working together with Xander on some missions even with the bickering. For Example: Lie to Me.


Xander to Angel:

- Going to Angel's apartment to get Angel to help him save Buffy and encouraging Angel to actually move his ass to save Buffy. The point is seeking the vamp he dislikes' help to save the girl he's in love with.

- Returning Angel's smile in Prophecy Girl.

- Letting Angel use him as bait with Spike in School Hard. Not to mention, not dwelling on Angel's "if he bit you we'll know he bought it."

- Arguing against Kendra's decision to kill Angel. "Angel is our friend, except I don't like him."

- Helping Buffy to save Angel in Amends.

- Asking Buffy and Angel if he could help solving their argument in The Zeppo.

- When Oz and Willow found the cure to save Angel in Graduation Part 1 but were too shocked to reveal what it was, Xander urged them, "Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel."

- Helping Angel with the missions they have together even with bickering there.


Xander to Spike:

- Taking Spike in during S4 instead of killing him or throwing him out while he was helpless.

- Xander gives Spike an apologetic shrug after beating him in Hush.

- Almost putting himself in danger of being hit by falling rocks, Xander jumps to pull Spike from under that piece of beam, saving his life in Doomed.

- When Spike lies about being Xander's friend, Xander lets him with an amused look.

- In The Yoko Factor, when Spike planned to 'pretend to go back under disguise into the Initiative', Xander delivered him the clothes appropriate with the 'job'. Xander is so naive sometimes.

- In Primeval when Spike rescued the Scoobies, he asked to be forgiven for his betrayal, then we see Giles and Willow looking at Xander as if asking for permission. Xander just shakes his head letting Spike be, instead of grabbing him and staking him.

- He bonds with Spike in Triangle.

- Being understanding about Spike's state in Intervention, and actually giving excuses to Buffy not to kill him.

- Lighting Spike's cigarette in Spiral and asking about Spike's wounds.

- In Normal Again, telling Buffy that he feels sorry for Spike and understands what he's going through because Xander also had had an unrequited love for Buffy back in high school.

- Saying "thank you" to Spike when he saved him in Normal Again.

- Taking Spike back in Him.

- Working together with Spike in Him.

- When Anya asked Xander to back her up in her 'we must kill Spike' argument, Xander chose to ignore her in Never Leave Me.

- Instead of blaming Spike, like Willow, Xander suggested that it wasn't Spike's fault that he's killing, it was probably because The First had triggered him.

- in Bring On the Night, Buffy talks desperately about saving Spike, and Xander smiles with understanding.

- In Get It Done, Xander was the only one who considered that Spike can bring the demon, when everybody even Buffy had underestimated Spike.

- In Lies My Parents Told Me, Xander gave Spike a pat on the shoulder for support.


Spike to Xander:

- Spike suggesting for Xander to have chicken wings or onion rings in Triangle.

- Bonding with Xander in Triangle.

- Smiling at Xander in Spiral after the exchange: Have I mentioned how much I hate you? You let it slip in twice.

- Giving Xander an impressed gaze when Xander stabbed Dock. (I'm not sure about this one, but I heard some fans speaking about it.)

- Being shocked and upset that Xander didn't inform him about bringing Buffy back because both of them had fought side by side during the summer.

- Saving Xander's life in Older and Far Away.

- Saving Xander in Normal again.

- Working together with Xander in Him.

- The worried tone in his voice when he told Buffy that Xander was in danger in First Date.

- Saving Xander's other eye in Dirty Girls.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Here's the list I've written years ago, Kana.



Angel to Xander:

- Saving Xander's life along with Giles and Willow in Out of Mind, Out of Sight

- Flashing a smile at Xander when Xander rescued Buffy in Prophecy Girl

- In Halloween, Angel ignored Buffy and Cordelia and hurried to help Xander beat up Larry.

- In The Zeppo, Angel thought it was better for Xander's safety to stay away from anything related to the apocalypse.

- In Consequences, Angel saved Xander's life from Faith.

- Working together with Xander on some missions even with the bickering. For Example: Lie to Me.


Xander to Angel:

- Going to Angel's apartment to get Angel to help him save Buffy and encouraging Angel to actually move his ass to save Buffy. The point is seeking the vamp he dislikes' help to save the girl he's in love with.

- Returning Angel's smile in Prophecy Girl.

- Letting Angel use him as bait with Spike in School Hard. Not to mention, not dwelling on Angel's "if he bit you we'll know he bought it."

- Arguing against Kendra's decision to kill Angel. "Angel is our friend, except I don't like him."

- Helping Buffy to save Angel in Amends.

- Asking Buffy and Angel if he could help solving their argument in The Zeppo.

- When Oz and Willow found the cure to save Angel in Graduation Part 1 but were too shocked to reveal what it was, Xander urged them, "Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel."

- Helping Angel with the missions they have together even with bickering there.


Xander to Spike:

- Taking Spike in during S4 instead of killing him or throwing him out while he was helpless.

- Xander gives Spike an apologetic shrug after beating him in Hush.

- Almost putting himself in danger of being hit by falling rocks, Xander jumps to pull Spike from under that piece of beam, saving his life in Doomed.

- When Spike lies about being Xander's friend, Xander lets him with an amused look.

- In The Yoko Factor, when Spike planned to 'pretend to go back under disguise into the Initiative', Xander delivered him the clothes appropriate with the 'job'. Xander is so naive sometimes.

- In Primeval when Spike rescued the Scoobies, he asked to be forgiven for his betrayal, then we see Giles and Willow looking at Xander as if asking for permission. Xander just shakes his head letting Spike be, instead of grabbing him and staking him.

- He bonds with Spike in Triangle.

- Being understanding about Spike's state in Intervention, and actually giving excuses to Buffy not to kill him.

- Lighting Spike's cigarette in Spiral and asking about Spike's wounds.

- In Normal Again, telling Buffy that he feels sorry for Spike and understands what he's going through because Xander also had had an unrequited love for Buffy back in high school.

- Saying "thank you" to Spike when he saved him in Normal Again.

- Taking Spike back in Him.

- Working together with Spike in Him.

- When Anya asked Xander to back her up in her 'we must kill Spike' argument, Xander chose to ignore her in Never Leave Me.

- Instead of blaming Spike, like Willow, Xander suggested that it wasn't Spike's fault that he's killing, it was probably because The First had triggered him.

- in Bring On the Night, Buffy talks desperately about saving Spike, and Xander smiles with understanding.

- In Get It Done, Xander was the only one who considered that Spike can bring the demon, when everybody even Buffy had underestimated Spike.

- In Lies My Parents Told Me, Xander gave Spike a pat on the shoulder for support.


Spike to Xander:

- Spike suggesting for Xander to have chicken wings or onion rings in Triangle.

- Bonding with Xander in Triangle.

- Smiling at Xander in Spiral after the exchange: Have I mentioned how much I hate you? You let it slip in twice.

- Giving Xander an impressed gaze when Xander stabbed Dock. (I'm not sure about this one, but I heard some fans speaking about it.)

- Being shocked and upset that Xander didn't inform him about bringing Buffy back because both of them had fought side by side during the summer.

- Saving Xander's life in Older and Far Away.

- Saving Xander in Normal again.

- Working together with Xander in Him.

- The worried tone in his voice when he told Buffy that Xander was in danger in First Date.

- Saving Xander's other eye in Dirty Girls.

That was actually a big eye opener. I enjoyed your list 🙂

 

[Ripper666]

I think that Xander always appreciate Spike and Angel. May he didn't show it so often. And I can still understand him somewhere. Spike and Angel won where he lost. Both gained Buffy, both fall in love with her! And she loved them. In season 1 Xander loved Buffy too but she didn't love Xander. May he was kind of jaleous. I think it was always a kind of "protect Buffy" inside him! I think he saw that both are very usefull in fights and that Buffy loved both! We have to remember that his best friend was killed by a vampire, Buffy nearly too. That changed him. He has a picture of the "dangerous vampire" in his head and still can't loose it. I can feel with him. I think Buffy and Willow stand a step over the vampires and so Spike and Angel always stood a step under the Scoobie-Gang. To protect him and the ones he love! And we have to admit that his fears weren't so groundless. I also think that he never had this trust in other people as may Buffy or Willow had! Unfortunately. May he was treated too many times badly in school...

 

[This Year's Girl]

I also think that he never had this trust in other people as may Buffy or Willow had! Unfortunately. May he was treated too many times badly in school...

I agree with this. I think Xander saw the good in people, but it seemed to be hard to gain his trust, at least if you had done bad things in the past. Good point!

Also, a heads up: It's not "may", it's "maybe". 🙂

---------- Post added at 05:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

[MENTION=11629]Ripper666[/MENTION] I'm not sure. 🙂 But I think if you use "may" you construct the sentence differently. I don't think the two words mean the same thing, but I might be wrong. Now when I think about it, I get unsure. Maybe you can use it the way you did. 😀 I'm sure one of our english friends can anwers this question! 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

Good point about Xander and trust, Ripper666. Xander doesn't trust people easily. I remember when Anya told him she loved him for the first time, he just stared at her like he didn't believe her. I think his homelife has something to do with it. It's really hard for him to trust the people who wronged him and his friends. He can trust Oz, Riley and Tara because he knew him as good people. With Angel, Xander was in love with Buffy and it seemed he disliked anyone Buffy was interested in, until Xander moved on and was able to like Scott Hope, Riley, Ben and Wood. Spike falls under the category of someone who hurt him and his friends and Xander can't trust him easily.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Do you think he appreciates them from time to time, even a little? If he does, will he ever admit that? Will he ever thank them?

I believe Xander grew to admire and care for Spike as he got to know him better. What solidified it for me was in Intervention, when Xander said " the guy was so thrashed." He said it in this way that proved to me he truly felt sorry for Spike. Also, in The Weight of the World, they share that cigarette, and have a beautiful conversation without malice of any kind. I think the AR ruined any good feelings Xander had towards Spike for a while, but now? I think Xander is okay with Spike, and understands how much he means to Buffy, ad how much he's done for them, and has come to peace with everything that has happened. I also believe they become closer after Buffy died, and might have even shared some quality time together, bonding over their mutual grief over Buffy's death.

As for Angel, no, I don't believe Xander ever really forgave Angel for killing Jenny. Some things are unforgivable, especially for Xander who holds a mean grudge.

 

[Kean]

On the contrary, I've seen Xander express gratitude and appreciation toward Angel and Spike more than the opposite. I also seen him express jealousy and dislike more. It shows that Xander notices them. On the other hand, Spike and Angel rarely notice Xander's existence, and if his name came into conversation they're either indifferent or disdained. When in danger, Angel and Spike have saved Xander more, but when it comes to friendly gestures Xander has showed more of that toward them than they did toward him.

I've written a list of the good moments between Xander, Spike and Angel a long time ago. I'll have to find it. 😀

I'm going to have to challenge you to bring on the list 😉 😛

I can't think of a single moment when Xander was sincerely nice to Angel. The closest I can think of is "He is the guy you want to party with" in Reptile Boy.

And in Angel's defence, I don't think it was ever the case of not noticing Xander, but the case that he was openly hostile towards Angel almost every time they interacted.

I'm not saying Xander didn't have his reason, but lets be fair, he didn't encourage a cordial relationship between Angel or Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I couldn't rep you again, Sosa lola, but this is a terrific list!

- Letting Angel use him as bait with Spike in School Hard. Not to mention, not dwelling on Angel's "if he bit you we'll know he bought it."

See, this scene always confused me; why would Xander allow this at that point, unless he trusted Angel? Xander had no reason too. I think this scene might prove that Xander did trust and believe in Angel's goodness, even this early on.

- Being shocked and upset that Xander didn't inform him about bringing Buffy back because both of them had fought side by side during the summer.

Exactly. We don't know what happened that summer, but like I mentioned earlier, it's likely they not only fought side-by-side, but they probably bonded more over their shared grief over Buffy's death, and as well their roles in looking after Dawn.

Here's a question for everyone;

How much of Angel's hostility towards Xander is based in jealousy of the later's relationship with Buffy, if any?

 

[sosa lola]

And in Angel's defence, I don't think it was ever the case of not noticing Xander, but the case that he was openly hostile towards Angel almost every time they interacted.

I don't blame Angel for not wanting to be friends with Xander during the high school years. Xander was too immature and hostile to him. I thought Xander was on his way to trust and like Angel in S2, but then Angel lost his soul and things went downhill between them.

Sometimes I wonder if Xander and Angel could have formed a friendship if Angel hadn't left Sunnydale. That would have been an interesting storyline for both of them. 🙂

 

[Mr Giles]

He did appreciate them to an extent, but, you have to remember how jealous he was of them. Xander was the one guy with no power.

 

[Dagenspear]

I see no real evidence to say that he did.

 

[Ripper666]

I don't blame Angel for not wanting to be friends with Xander during the high school years.

But be honest, neither Angel nor Spike ever really tried to become friends with/for Xander. I can remember some scenes inwhich Xander helps them, but I don't remeber a scene inwhich one of the vampire tries to help Xander with his problems! They didn't made it so easily for Xander too! It's surely not only Xanders fault!