"Ding dong the bitch is dead"

[Joshua]

Did anybody else hate this line to death? I mean sure Buffy was a harsh leader and too strict. But the fact that douchebag Rona said that, WHEN BUFFY could have just left Rona there to be killed by the Bringers on her arrival Rona had no right to saying that.

my God

 

[BuffyElevated]

I hated Rona, period. When she said this line it only made me want to punch her through my TV. She was the bitch, not Buffy.

 

[Lyri]

Does she really say 'bitch'? I always thought it was 'witch'. 'Bitch' is a bit too harsh and WAY over the top for someone of Rona's place in Buffy's life to be calling her.

On the one hand, I DO understand where Rona is coming from. Buffy is the one who promised them that she would look after them and protect them, but ever since Rona has arrived at Potential Central, she's had to watch people she's come to know and care about commit suicide because they don't think Buffy can save them and be killed off because Buffy has insisted that they follow her into battle. From Rona's perspective, at that precise moment when she says that line, at least 10 girls she has come to know have died or been killed. And for all she knows, if Buffy keeps leading them, Rona herself could be next.

On the other hand, I feel that Rona has failed to take into account that this isn't Buffy's job. She's the Slayer, she was never, ever supposed to come face to face with the girls who were in line to take her place when she died. It must be hard to see your own mortality shoved in your face like that. And not just Buffy, but Faith, too. Buffy was never trained for this, this leadership role, and I think the Potentials failed to understand that. They just saw the Slayer, the mystical being they were all in training to become one day. The way their Watchers described a Slayer must have been awe-inducing, because a Slayer was supposed to be the best thing in the world, capable of anything. Stories must have been told of Buffy's accomplishments (I mean, come on. How many times did Buffy save the world? How many uber-bad guys did she take out?) and then to see that, no, actually, she's just a girl like they are, they should have understood that she was as out of her element as they were.

Another reason people tend to think Rona seems like the Potential with the biggest beef against Buffy actually comes from a line Faith said in, I think, the ep before the finale.

'Think that's why you and me can never get along? 'Cause we're not supposed to exist together?'

There's been a lot of fan speculation that suggests that Rona was actually the Potential who was next in line to be the actual Slayer, if the Scythe Spell had never been cast. The speculation comes from a moment in 'Chosen', in the Hellmouth. Buffy is down, bleeding out, and she passes the Scythe off to Faith, telling her to 'hold the line'. When Faith gets pinned down and fight her way out, she in turn passes the Scythe to Rona, despite there being at least three other girls within her reach (according to speculation, it's been years since I actually saw that scene). This is taken as a literal passing of the power of the Slayer: Buffy (to Kendra) to Faith to Rona.

I'm not sure if I buy into that theory, but it could explain why Rona and Buffy can never get along, if Faith's theory holds true, but we'll never know, because the Scythe spell activated everyone and no Slayer seems to really like Buffy very much, lol. Well, maybe Anaheed.

 

[sk]

lol, yeah it's definitely Ding dong the witch is dead (from that Wizard of Oz song)

I just think it was such a inappropriate and disrespectful thing to say.
It really wasn't her place to say anything at that moment.

Everyone ended up losing that argument imho and she acted like she had won or something. Just stupid.

/SK

 

[itssmiletime]

After Buffy's awful behaviour in Get It Done (she only apologised to Willow who was so unbelievably passive), I really, really, really wanted to see Buffy get a taste of her own medicine. And every time in Empty Places someone said something against her, the happier I was. Buffy was being incredibly reckless with Caleb, Spike, the Potentials... she was so lucky that even the First was dumber that she was....

Just because Buffy offered protection, doesn't mean that Rona can't speak out, at all, or that the potentials 'owe her' or anything like that. She could have thrown confetti and I still wouldn't have a problem with that, at all.

That said, however, I did feel sorry for Dawn. It really did hurt for her to do that, facing the reality that letting Buffy lead would mean that everyone dies. That's the only thing I hate about that line. How it hurt Dawn.

 

[Amanda108]

^I have to admit I have no sympathy for Dawn (and I'm actually a fan of hers!) after the way she kicked Buffy out with that crap about it being her house too. Start assuming some of the responsibility of a house, kid, then we'll talk about having the privileges of it - like kicking people out.

That said, back to Rona - I do think she owed Buffy. She'd be dead without Buffy, who was doing the best she could basically all by herself. Having an opinion about missions and the situation is one thing, but insulting the woman who saved your butt repeatedly and opened her home to you is disgustingly inappropriate.

 

[itssmiletime]

^I have to admit I have no sympathy for Dawn (and I'm actually a fan of hers!) after the way she kicked Buffy out with that crap about it being her house too. Start assuming some of the responsibility of a house, kid, then we'll talk about having the privileges of it - like kicking people out.

That said, back to Rona - I do think she owed Buffy. She'd be dead without Buffy, who was doing the best she could basically all by herself. Having an opinion about missions and the situation is one thing, but insulting the woman who saved your butt repeatedly and opened her home to you is disgustingly inappropriate.

I strongly disagree that Buffy was doing the best she can do. She sent children to Caleb's lair without knowledge about Caleb at all. She constantly belittled and insulted the potentials, even though they were doing the best they can. In Empty Places, she spends the majority of the episode moping around, whilst Anya was lecturing the potentials. So the statement that she was 'doing the best all by herself' is well, ridiculous- considering the amount of help that Anya, Xander, Dawn, etc gave her.

I disagree also with the sentiment that if someone avoids you from dying, you 'owe' them. Without Xander pulling the string in the puppet show, Giles wouldn't have a head. Does Giles owe Xander anything? Or the time Xander gave CPR to Buffy in Prophecy Girl- does that mean Buffy owe's Xander anything? I mean, yeah, if someone saves someone's lives, they do deserve gratitude- but apart from that, there is no formal contract, so no. The way I see it- Buffy's actions in the previous episode severly endangered Rona's life. Her arm got twisted by Caleb. Buffy was playing with fire, and Rona was well, within her right to call her out on it.

Dawn was being responsible. And she already has the privilege of 'chucking people out'- it is, technically- her house also. She doesn't have to work for it.

 

[Blaze]

I strongly disagree that Buffy was doing the best she can do. She sent children to Caleb's lair without knowledge about Caleb at all. She constantly belittled and insulted the potentials, even though they were doing the best they can. In Empty Places, she spends the majority of the episode moping around, whilst Anya was lecturing the potentials. So the statement that she was 'doing the best all by herself' is well, ridiculous- considering the amount of help that Anya, Xander, Dawn, etc gave her.

I might disagree with the "all by herself", but I do believe Buffy was doing the best that she could. Yes she wasn't a very good leader, yes she made plenty of mistakes, but I think she was still trying with all her abilities as leader. She never had training to do such a job and it was her first time doing it, of course she was going to make mistakes, I don't think that means that she wasn't giving her all. Also, I get that she endangered her troops, but sadly as a general in war, that doesn't really matter, and it's done all the time in real life. It doesn't make it right, but the fact that they are potentials mean that they will face dangerous situations.

I will agree thought that she had a lot of help from her friends. And to get back on topic, I think Rona was a jerk for saying that. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that just goes to show me that she's self-entitled and she's not a fighter. I just hate when people blame others, yes it was Buffy's mistake, but if the girls thought Buffy was such a shit leader, they could have said something before or decided not to fallow her anymore. Yet they keep doing so and the first real faux-pas she makes ends up in her being kicked out of the house. Yes the girls had a list of pretty shitty choices, but they still had a choice.

 

[itssmiletime]

I might disagree with the "all by herself", but I do believe Buffy was doing the best that she could. Yes she wasn't a very good leader, yes she made plenty of mistakes, but I think she was still trying with all her abilities as leader. She never had training to do such a job and it was her first time doing it, of course she was going to make mistakes, I don't think that means that she wasn't giving her all. Also, I get that she endangered her troops, but sadly as a general in war, that doesn't really matter, and it's done all the time in real life. It doesn't make it right, but the fact that they are potentials mean that they will face dangerous situations.

I will agree thought that she had a lot of help from her friends. And to get back on topic, I think Rona was a jerk for saying that. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that just goes to show me that she's self-entitled and she's not a fighter. I just hate when people blame others, yes it was Buffy's mistake, but if the girls thought Buffy was such a shit leader, they could have said something before or decided not to fallow her anymore. Yet they keep doing so and the first real faux-pas she makes ends up in her being kicked out of the house. Yes the girls had a list of pretty shitty choices, but they still had a choice.

Okay- I disagree with pretty much everything.

Here is the thing. Buffy's 'best' is not good enough, at all. In Selfless, during her 'I killed Angel wah wah' moment, she establishes herself as 'the law'. Well, I demand total perfection for the legal system, and so should everyone else. I demand ambition who refuses to dismiss dead soliders as merely 'casualities'. So Buffy has to be perfect in S7, and as she is so, so, so, so far from it- yeah, I'm gonna crush everything she does and forget that she is a human being- even, an unambitious loser who gives terrible advice...

And it being in a state of war- that. is. no. excuse. They are refugees, not soliders. Completely different. There is already danger in their lives- being a potential- yet let's not make there lives any more dangerous than there already is. Let's not let the potentials meet Caleb. Let's not let triggered Spike walk around. Those things made a hell a lot of a difference.

And the debacule with Caleb is not, Buffy's first 'faux pas' here are some others that were prior:

-Calling a suicide victim weak, pressuring you're freakin' best friend in front of everyone as a 'wicca who won't a'
-Letting Spike wear a dead slayer's coat around Robin Wood
-Not dealing with Spike's trigger
-In First Date, going over to a slightly hurt Spike over a gutted Xander. I mean, really?
-Too many speeches
-Letting Anya and Dawn torture Andrew. Yeah, I mean, PTSD, funny, am I right? I mean, I hate Andrew, but torture is always wrong.

To say that the potentials had a choice is really, well, not true. The other choice- running away as seen by Annabelle- is by death. And they had said something. The thing is that Buffy ran it like a dictatorship 'I'm your leader as in do as I say' and strongly insisting that she was more powerful than them. And it is hard and difficult to say no when everyone who frightens the living shits out of you pressures you to do so.

As for me? I love Rona. She calls Buffy out on her sh*t constantly. Remember when the Scoobies were like that?

 

[Blaze]

Okay- I disagree with pretty much everything.

Here is the thing. Buffy's 'best' is not good enough, at all. In Selfless, during her 'I killed Angel wah wah' moment, she establishes herself as 'the law'. Well, I demand total perfection for the legal system, and so should everyone else. I demand ambition who refuses to dismiss dead soliders as merely 'casualities'. So Buffy has to be perfect in S7, and as she is so, so, so, so far from it- yeah, I'm gonna crush everything she does and forget that she is a human being- even, an unambitious loser who gives terrible advice...

I'll agree with some of the stuff and disagree with some other stuff. I agree that Buffy's best is not good enough, but I still believe it's her best. I can't get mad at her for trying her hardest and sucking at it (which I agree, she does at times). Buffy might have been the law, but she was also forced in that position, I'm pretty sure she would have never wanted to have 30 girls invade her privacy and her being forced into protecting them, but she did her best. She had to make herself to law to protect them, but she wasn't chosen in the sense that she wasn't anymore chosen to be the slayer, but she had to do it anyway. I'd demand perfection from someone that is trained to do so, but Buffy wasn't trained to lead nor did she want to lead, she just had to. So in this case, yes Buffy sucks, but I can't hold her responsible for trying and failing.

And it being in a state of war- that. is. no. excuse. They are refugees, not soliders. Completely different. There is already danger in their lives- being a potential- yet let's not make there lives any more dangerous than there already is. Let's not let the potentials meet Caleb. Let's not let triggered Spike walk around. Those things made a hell a lot of a difference.

You made a good point about the refugees, but some of these girls did want to be soldiers. Also, as soon as you are called to be a slayer, you are forced into being a soldier, no choices about that, so I view the girls as soldiers. It's sad, and it's not right, it's also very unfair, but they are pushed into that role like Buffy is pushed into being the leader. I will agree though that meeting Caleb was a insanely poor choice, and Buffy should have never let that happen, but she made a mistake. As for Spike, he should have been staked back in s4, but we all know that Buffy isn't like that with her boy toy vampires. After all, she let Angel kill her friends in s2, I can imagine that it must have been even easier to let Spike kill strangers in s7. That is one think that without a doubt I agree that Buffy did wrong. That being said, at least Spike was chained in the basement when they found out, and he was valuable to the team, so at least she was protecting the girls by that point.

And the debacule with Caleb is not, Buffy's first 'faux pas' here are some others that were prior:

-Calling a suicide victim weak, pressuring you're freakin' best friend in front of everyone as a 'wicca who won't a'

The suicide thing was cringe worthy. To be honest I just think that was Buffy either being ignorant, or trying to shake the girls enough to prevent them from doing it. And before people jump to my throat for defending Buffy, I have depression and have had suicidal thoughts before, so I'm not taking this topic lightly. Buffy was wrong, so you made a valid point, that would have been a faux pas.

-Letting Spike wear a dead slayer's coat around Robin Wood

I don't care much for this nor do I think it's a faux pas. It's not like it was Buffy's job to whip Spike into doing stuff, he's is own man and should have been the one to take that decision. That was tasteless of Spike, not Buffy.

-Not dealing with Spike's trigger
-In First Date, going over to a slightly hurt Spike over a gutted Xander. I mean, really?
-Too many speeches

I would need to do a re-watch, I don't remember those scenes well enough, but Spike was chained while the trigger was still active until the chip was removed. And about the gutted Xander, the cut would have been fairly superficial to heal that quickly in later episodes, and it's not like she didn't have anyone to take care of Xander either. She took care of both cases, I don't see what the problem is if everything ended up fine.

-Letting Anya and Dawn torture Andrew. Yeah, I mean, PTSD, funny, am I right? I mean, I hate Andrew, but torture is always wrong.

Which scene(s) are you referring to here? Again, just bad memory failing me, and I'm curious as I don't really remember any big torture scenes taking place with Andrew.

To say that the potentials had a choice is really, well, not true. The other choice- running away as seen by Annabelle- is by death. And they had said something. The thing is that Buffy ran it like a dictatorship 'I'm your leader as in do as I say' and strongly insisting that she was more powerful than them. And it is hard and difficult to say no when everyone who frightens the living shits out of you pressures you to do so.

I think a lot of people will agree with you on this, but to me, after what they did to Buffy when kicking her out, they did have a choice. They could have done that before meeting Caleb.

As for me? I love Rona. She calls Buffy out on her sh*t constantly. Remember when the Scoobies were like that?

I'm pretty neutral about Rona, I much prefer Kennedy (who also calls Buffy on her shit), I love people that can stand up for themselves, Rona just didn't appeal much to me. I think it's maybe because she blame Buffy after the fight, while Kennedy tend to debate her point of view as soon as the plan is brought up. To me, that gives Kennedy the right to say "I told you so".

 

[white avenger]

Did anybody else hate this line to death? I mean sure Buffy was a harsh leader and too strict. But the fact that douchebag Rona said that, WHEN BUFFY could have just left Rona there to be killed by the Bringers on her arrival Rona had no right to saying that.

my God

A lot of things have been said about Buffy's failures as a leader, both here and other places, and I have no doubt that a lot more will be said in the future. Something that we all have to remember, though, is that whatever we might think of Buffy's abilities as a leader, whatever her failings in that department were, the bottom line is, she WAS the leader, not because she wanted the job particularly, but because no one else would step up to assume the responsibility, and there had to be someone in charge. That many people living under one roof simply couldn't function without some sort of leader and authority figure.

Personally, I think that she was doing an uncommonly good job, considering the circumstances, certainly much better than Xander or Willow would have done, and Giles was gone more than he was there. Granted, Willow, in an emergency, had taken charge, at least on a temporary basis, but her Season 7 title of "the Wicca who won't-a" was aptly deserved. After what happened the year before, she simply wasn't up to the task, especially in the early part of the season. That only leaves Anya, Spike, and Andrew, and I seriously doubt that anyone here would choose either of them for the job.

Besides which, and this is not, despite what my very vocal my detractors might believe, a defense of you-know-who, a major part of the season's story line involved Spike, and since the only one who believed in him was Buffy, the only way that he could have survived past "Showtime" was with her support and protection. Unless we rewrite so much of the season as to make it something totally different than what we actually saw, there was no choice except to make Buffy the leader.

 

[Robb Stark]

I didn't like the line. I see both sides of the argument, largely because there are good points on both sides. I think the real problem is that Buffy's capacity as a leader just isn't there. There are too many mistakes, too many bone-headed calls, too many inexcusable tactical decisions for me to take her seriously as a credible, capable leader or commander (and that's only reinforced in S8, which is a strategic mess from start to finish). Far too many.

At the same time though, there weren't a lot of options. The Potentials, I'm sorry, were idiots, all of them. Xander, Willow, Anya and Andrew clearly weren't up to the job. Wood had no history with any of them. Faith was a disaster as soon as she was handed the reigns, and that's not even mentioning the two year detour of insanity and murder she took. Giles was largely absent and was pretty weird even when he was there. [MENTION=12236]itssmiletime[/MENTION] brings up a good point in regards to Buffy naming herself the law, but I'd like to add to it. That was dumb, but Xander and Willow were right there when Buffy decided she had to kill Anya (I don't like Anya, but it was a pretty eyebrow-raising thing to say nonetheless), and they still had full confidence in her the next episode. Buffy was a screwup in S7, absolutely, but they didn't do a damn thing about it. Neither did Dawn, Spike, Andrew, Giles or anyone else. They clearly decided to go with Buffy as their commander. Yes, the blame falls on Buffy for her leadership in the field, but it falls on all of the Scoobies as well for not doing anything about it beforehand (I'm not talking about the Potentials, just the Scoobies).

I just get the feeling that so many of the late S7 wrenches wouldn't have happened if Angel had been there. I'm not talking in a romantic sense or anything. I just think that he had a bit of a, I don't know if I'm phrasing this right, settling presence on Buffy. I liked her and her leadership style far more when he was around. And having another powerful, leadership-caliber personality around would have helped Buffy's decision-making process substantially. I mean, Angel NEVER would have marched into Caleb's lair cold like that. Never. I think he would have been able to see that the Potentials were teetering on the edge and that what they didn't need was "fire em' up" speeches. I don't know. I just find whenever I re-watch S7 that Angel, not to mention his team, would have helped tremendously.

(However, as an aside, I don't agree that Buffy should have staked Spike, just as she shouldn't have staked Angel in S1 or in "Amends" in S3, or killed Xander in "The Pack". Mind-control is a very real thing in the Buffyverse. What happened to Spike wasn't his fault, and I completely believe that she was right in doing everything she could have to save her friend)

That only leaves Anya, Spike, and Andrew, and I seriously doubt that anyone here would choose either of them for the job.

You know, this will get roasted I'm sure, but after giving it some thought, I would have chosen Spike ahead of Buffy. By the end of S7 he's fully recovered from The First's influence. He's right near her level as a fighter and has tons of field experience. He proves the next season on AtS that he can move into a group where he doesn't know anyone and be a commanding presence. He and Angel were always a little bit at odds, but they were able to work together extremely well and effectively. There's no real reason to think that couldn't have happened with Buffy's crew (although that may be more of a reflection on Angel's ability to accept Spike around. I'm not sure if Xander would have been able to do that).

And despite what he says to Buffy, Spike clearly is a perceptive thinker. He can and does realize the context of situations and how individual people react to them, an ability that has totally abandoned Buffy by S7.

 

[white avenger]

Angel NEVER would have marched into Caleb's lair cold like that. Never. I think he would have been able to see that the Potentials were teetering on the edge and that what they didn't need was "fire em' up" speeches. I don't know. I just find whenever I re-watch S7 that Angel, not to mention his team, would have helped tremendously.



You know, this will get roasted I'm sure, but after giving it some thought, I would have chosen Spike ahead of Buffy. By the end of S7 he's fully recovered from The First's influence. He's right near her level as a fighter and has tons of field experience. He proves the next season on AtS that he can move into a group where he doesn't know anyone and be a commanding presence. He and Angel were always a little bit at odds, but they were able to work together extremely well and effectively. There's no real reason to think that couldn't have happened with Buffy's crew (although that may be more of a reflection on Angel's ability to accept Spike around. I'm not sure if Xander would have been able to do that).

And despite what he says to Buffy, Spike clearly is a perceptive thinker. He can and does realize the context of situations and how individual people react to them, an ability that has totally abandoned Buffy by S7.

And yet, Angel does exactly that, and even worse. He apparently followed Buffy into Caleb's lair with no knowledge of what he was walking into, and, if things had gone only slightly differently, he could have been a pile of dust on the crypt floor. She might have even dusted him herself before realizing who he was. That sort of thing happens in real life with police and the military all the time. It's one of the definitions of "friendly fire."

Spike is, in my opinion, a great sidekick, but as far as being the commander in chief, at least in Season 7, with that group of people, he just couldn't have pulled it off. Giles would have made sure of that, almost certainly with Xander's, and Wood's, once he joined the gang, enthusiastic support. Spike, in Season 7, is at his best covering Buffy's back. He was certainly more of a leader among his own kind in Season 2, and even in his pre-chip days in Season 4. He couldn't have done that in Season 7. The next year, with people who were more accepting of him, is a different matter entirely.

Now, Angel, if there had been some way to get him onto the show without it conflicting with his own series, could probably have pulled it off, simply because he wouldn't have had the same kind of opposition from the Scoobies that Spike would have gotten. After all, he had only tried to destroy the world when he was soulless. He had never tried to rape Buffy. And no, that's NOT a joke. Trying to rape someone you love is usually much more personal, therefore harder to forgive, than something like sending the whole world into hell.

 

[Robb Stark]

And yet, Angel does exactly that, and even worse. He apparently followed Buffy into Caleb's lair with no knowledge of what he was walking into, and, if things had gone only slightly differently, he could have been a pile of dust on the crypt floor. She might have even dusted him herself before realizing who he was. That sort of thing happens in real life with police and the military all the time. It's one of the definitions of "friendly fire."

It's not the same thing. Angel approaches on his own and views the situation before intervening. He hammers Caleb, he doesn't sneak up behind Buffy or anything like that. And that isn't even really what I'm saying. I'm speaking more about planning and execution in general. If I come up behind you, tap you on the shoulder, and you get startled and hit me, that's not a reflection on my ability as a leader. If the set of circumstances were the same, I don't think Angel would have marched into Caleb's lair like Buffy did, knowing what she did at the time, which was virtually nothing.

Spike is, in my opinion, a great sidekick, but as far as being the commander in chief, at least in Season 7, with that group of people, he just couldn't have pulled it off. Giles would have made sure of that, almost certainly with Xander's, and Wood's, once he joined the gang, enthusiastic support. Spike, in Season 7, is at his best covering Buffy's back. He was certainly more of a leader among his own kind in Season 2, and even in his pre-chip days in Season 4. He couldn't have done that in Season 7. The next year, with people who were more accepting of him, is a different matter entirely.

I can see your reasoning here, absolutely. It's obviously a little harder for the objective viewer to put his/her line of thinking into the minds of the characters, but given when I know about Spike and his ability, I personally would have had just as much confidence in him to lead, probably more, than Buffy. But your points about his relationships with the other members of the group do make a lot of sense.

Now, Angel, if there had been some way to get him onto the show without it conflicting with his own series, could probably have pulled it off, simply because he wouldn't have had the same kind of opposition from the Scoobies that Spike would have gotten. After all, he had only tried to destroy the world when he was soulless. He had never tried to rape Buffy. And no, that's NOT a joke. Trying to rape someone you love is usually much more personal, therefore harder to forgive, than something like sending the whole world into hell.

I'm not really sure what to make of this, if you're being sarcastic or not. I think most of the Scoobies had accepted that what Angelus did wasn't Angel's fault (Giles says as much when he returns in S3). Angel is a very proven leader by this point his own series. To be honest, and I just know we'll differ on this, I think Angel is the best overall leader of anyone in either series, and far superior to Buffy.

As for Spike, I wasn't talking about soulless actions at all, so I'm not really sure where you're coming from. I was speaking about ability, which I think both Angel and Spike have.

 

[white avenger]

I'm not really sure what to make of this, if you're being sarcastic or not. I think most of the Scoobies had accepted that what Angelus did wasn't Angel's fault (Giles says as much when he returns in S3). Angel is a very proven leader by this point his own series. To be honest, and I just know we'll differ on this, I think Angel is the best overall leader of anyone in either series, and far superior to Buffy.

Neither joke nor sarcasm whatsoever intended here. It's a simple fact of human nature. Spike's attack on Buffy is far harder for her friends to either forgive or ignore than anything that Angelus ever did, even murdering Jenny Calendar, simply because it was a more personal, immediate thing, affecting the Scoobies directly. Certainly, destroying the world would be the larger crime, injuring far more people, but, because the number IS so big, it's harder to imagine than Buffy's attempted rape.

 

[Zeppelin92]

I felt really bad for Buffy. Yes she made some bad decisions but who hasn't in the series? Buffy was handed this leadership role out of no where, it isn't even her responsibility to protect the potentials ever. She took it upon herself to take them in and yes she had to be stern and make hard decisions most of the time but give the girl some credit. To me the whole scene was weird because I never understood all the hate Buffy got. And don't get me started with Dawn, I like her as a character but to kick out your family at a time when they need you most is low. Especially to kick out your sister who gave her life for you to live. If Buffy didn't exist Dawn wouldn't even exist and that really pissed me off.

The rest of the core gang of the scoobies could at least be thoughtful. It only because they ressurrected Buffy that this whole mess with The First started to begin with. In the end Buffy was left to clean up a mess that she didn't create basically on her own and when it came to calling the shots she made a mistake and suddenly its mutiny all around. The scene didn't sit well with me as you can tell.

 

[itssmiletime]

Buffy was forced into the position of being a slayer, yet she wasn’t in the position of ever being the law- that was her own doing and choice. The scooby gang made it quite clear to her on numerous occasions that being the slayer doesn’t make her better, or superior. In Ted, when Cordelia suggested that there should be different circumstances for Buffy, some bending around the legal system, Xander scoffs it off as ‘sure, in a fascist society’. In Fear Itself, Willow says ‘Being the slayer doesn’t automatically make you boss’. Buffy herself seems disgusted at Faith’s ‘we are better’ speech in Consequences. Yet she uses the ‘I’m the slayer’ card, three times - in Prophecy Girl, her knocking Giles unconscious so he wouldn’t face the master, and in Homecoming, to get Willow to help her win Homecoming, and lastly, in Primeval, her insistence to the Initiative that they are playing on her ‘turf’ . That’s all that comes to mind. People do ask for guidance and tips (“Buffy what do we do?”) but that’s not the same as passing judgement over an individual.

To me, Buffy herself, is technically a vigilante. She is taking matters in her own hands. Her being the slayer doesn’t make her different to other vigilantes in the Buffyverse- Gunn, Wesley, Xander, Anya, Connor, Holtz, Robin Wood, Angel, Willow, Giles, etc. Do I view her as the law? No. To me, you are only ever the law if you are elected democratically consistently over time. Being chosen is different- Buffy is only really the slayer because three men decided so. Yet the reason why I am so critical of her errors in S7 as opposed to other seasons, is because Buffy, herself, so desperately clings to her power, and runs things exactly like a dictator (hence Xander’s Nazi reference in Get It Done). She has a self- righteousness and arrogance that sickens me and is quite disturbing- it is, an abuse of power. She uses the ‘slayer card’ left and right- whether it’s to get the final say in what to do with Anya (“And that is always gonna be me”) the claim of leadership (“Because I’m The Slayer” “So do what I say”). So if she wants to be ‘the law’- I’m going to judge her actions left, right and centre. That is the cost of arrogance- you are going to be viewed on a higher standard than you actually are. I mean, she’s want, 21 and she still hasn’t figured it out?

That’s why I found her ‘I am the law’ line to be also quite stupid- because for example, in Innocence, she doesn’t kill Angel. Of course, it’s understandable, and even forgivable, for a seventeen yr old girl to kill the demon wearing her lover’s face. But the law can’t be in love with certain citizens. It can’t be blinded by love. It can’t just run away for three months and come back. It can’t beg to people. It can’t treat people differently. Her reasoning for her being the law is being the slayer- and she has been the slayer for 7+ years, and such a statement makes me re-evaluate all her flaws and errors and mistakes, and yeah, it does not look good for her.

Yeah, she didn’t want the job of being a slayer, no denying it. Yet why does she so desperately cling onto power? Why does she rule like a dictator? Why doesn’t she ask for help or assistance? Buffy in Primeval, learned a valuable lesson: you are not entitled to bossing people around. Your friends do not care that you are the slayer. No one cares and no one is impressed by it anymore. Willow is your friend, not your minion. Hence in S5, she listens to other people’s suggestions, befriends previous ‘outsiders’ such as Anya and Tara and uses them to her advantage and also makes them feel wanted, and the Scooby unit is extremely strong. She can afford to leave Sunnydale, knowing that Xander and Anya can patrol for her and babysit Dawn for her. I am not denying that perhaps Buffy could have been the only leader, but she made so many errors that I can see S1- 5 Buffy rolling her eyes and laughing at her stupidity. Seriously, her errors in Dirty girls and Empty Places are so glaringly obvious, she brings embarrassment to what it means to be a slayer.
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]:
It should also be outlined that Spike’s trigger- whether Buffy believes in him, has a soul- is completely irrelevant. He loses all motor control of his body, physically overtaken by the trigger. Yeah its nice to know that someone believes in you, but when you have no control, sadly, in the large scheme of things, it is meaningless. [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]:
I definitely agree on all counts regarding Angel, yet I kinda both agree and disagree at the same time with the scoobies and the responsibility (kind of depends on the Scooby). I can see why Anya and Andrew felt powerless- but yeah, Willow, could have said something, particularly when she had a chance at the end of Get It Done. I’m a gigantic Willow fan, but my god, did her passiveness annoy me so much in the last season. Even though I hate Spike in S6-7, I did disagree with Giles decision to kill him. That said, he did say ‘well, it could be a stapler’ in Dirty Girls, insisting the stupidity of the plan. In Empty Places, he does the smart thing of sending Andrew and Spike to research Caleb’s background. I liked his attitude of okay, if you are going to go away for five hours to mope, I am going to do something’. Xander, like I said prior, did allude Buffy to Nazism, and insisted that the potentials were doing the best they can, in an effort for Buffy to give them more sympathy and understanding. I am for a joint leadership, however, such as Xander / Giles, Spike / Xander (both have shown ability to immediately get over grudges in the time of a crisis)

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]:
The potentials are refugees. If you are being hunted down or persecuted for whatever reason, that makes you a refugee. The fact they are ‘potentials’ doesn’t stop that. The only way you can stop being a refugee is when you stop being persecuted, full stop. It doesn’t matter if you defend yourself. You are still a refugee. And not every potential wanted to fight. Rona didn’t, and she was fully within her right to decline.

They didn’t know they had an actual choice until Faith arrived on the scene. And when they realised that yeah, they aren’t the only ones who can’t stand Buffy. Also, when much physically powerful peers are pressuring you to do something it is exceptionally difficult to say no. I stand by my claim that they had no choice- the fault lies with Buffy, not them.

Anyway: Yeah, you are right about the coat being Spike’s problem, not Buffys. I should’ve been more specific and written about her lack of action regarding the trigger. And she let him walk around in Get It Done, First Date, Storyteller, Potential, etc- even though The First, via Jonathan said that there big action for Spike ‘wasn’t ready yet’. Buffy took a gigantic, not needed, and very reckless risk.

The episodes for torture include Never Leave Me / Bring On The Night. Plus there is storyteller, where Buffy holds Andrew over the seal with a knife threatening to kill him, and it turns out tears is required… sorry, but that level of violence and torture is disgusting. I don’t care what a disgusting individual Andrew is, those instances disturbs me.

The problem with the Xander / Spike scene is that it shows her priorities are extremely misplaced. Obviously, a human is the very first person you run to, not a vampire. Vampires can heal faster. She is clearly playing with fire.

With Chloe… even if she was still only saying what she said in attempt to stop others from killing themselves (aka the latter) it still shows ignorance on her part: that someone can ‘snap’ out of suicide, that an act of tough love is sufficient enough, etc. Gee, no wonder she got fired from her counselling job and Wood laughed at the suggestion at her being hired for her counselling skills…

I do remember Rona bringing up her concerns in Dirty Girls (“going into the bad guys lair”) and her arm nearly got twisted off… I do prefer Kennedy besides the whole maggot calling incident, but in all fairness, she was given much more to work with.

And lastly… [MENTION=12395]Zeppelin92[/MENTION]:
Well, yeah people make bad decisions, but when your bad decisions lead to people being killed, that’s when I have a problem. Also… I’ll say it again. Just because Buffy gave up her life, doesn’t mean that the world owes her a living or anything. I find it deeply fallacious when people bring up previous events, because well, I can just bring up Buffy’s slut-shaming of Dawn in Him, her physical assault of her in No Place Like Home and her neglect in S6.

 

[The Bronze]

@HisMrs

I hated Rona, period. When she said this line it only made me want to punch her through my TV. She was the bitch, not Buffy.

Haha got to say I had similar feelings as well.

Lots of interesting points on this thread. I think I've got a very Buffy-centric view of the show so there's quite a bit I don't agree with. I might be a bit more specific when I have some more time.

Doesn't everyone just wish the communication had been better in season 7? You would have thought that once the Summer's house started filling up with people then a committee of sorts would have been formed. A meeting every couple of days between the main players to discuss the basics of running the house and the more complicated plans for fighting the war. Make one of the scoobies the liason for the potentials as well so their voice is represented and their might not have been so many festering issues.

Buffy could still have been the leader / chairman but we'd have had more balance. I think all of the adults in the house have to take some blame for not coming up with a sensible system and just muddling through

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]:
It should also be outlined that Spike's trigger- whether Buffy believes in him, has a soul- is completely irrelevant. He loses all motor control of his body, physically overtaken by the trigger. Yeah its nice to know that someone believes in you, but when you have no control, sadly, in the large scheme of things, it is meaningless.
ery first person you run to, not a vampire. Vampires can heal faster. She is clearly playing with fire.

From a purely logical, dispassionate way, I can certainly agree that Spike, with his trigger active, was a liability, and should have been eliminated. But Buffy didn't depend on pure logic to make her decisions. She relied on instinct, experience, personal opinions, and sheer, dumb luck. That could definitely have resulted in sheer disaster, but, in the case of Spike, she was right.

Buffy certainly made mistakes as a leader, and her gamble on Spike's ultimate worth might very well have been the greatest long shot imaginable. "It all turned out for the good" is a very weak argument, but it's not the first time that such a gamble, in the face of overwhelming odds, has been the ultimate source of victory.

 

[itssmiletime]

From a purely logical, dispassionate way, I can certainly agree that Spike, with his trigger active, was a liability, and should have been eliminated. But Buffy didn't depend on pure logic to make her decisions. She relied on instinct, experience, personal opinions, and sheer, dumb luck. That could definitely have resulted in sheer disaster, but, in the case of Spike, she was right.

Buffy certainly made mistakes as a leader, and her gamble on Spike's ultimate worth might very well have been the greatest long shot imaginable. "It all turned out for the good" is a very weak argument, but it's not the first time that such a gamble, in the face of overwhelming odds, has been the ultimate source of victory.

Well, it's quite clear she doesn't rely on logic 🙂

I think her experience shows that if you leave things out, they will come back, stronger, and wreck havoc. Better to be safe than sorry, right? There were heaps of times when Spike should have been staked, and this way prior to S7.

If there is anything to learn from Buffy's experience and instinct, the more you leave things, the worse they get. Her not staking Angelus in Innocence results to stabbing re-ensouled Angel in Becoming. Her not staking Spike in School Hard, What's My Line, Halloween, Lie To Me leads to death and more chaos. Of course, I'm not blaming Buffy for such things- but when it comes to vampires.

Just because you are right by dumb luck, particularly the First being so dumb to live, you do not get any points, at all. She played with people's lives, and that is never okay, no matter what the outcome is- the time from start to the 'end' is full of anxiety and fear- and a part of that, does have to do with Buffy's recklessness with Spike, It all turned out for the good isn't even an argument, at all. It's a mockery.