Discussion of 2.17 "Passion" - Aired 2/24/1998 (WB-US)

I disagree. I think the AR scene is harder to watch.
I think they are at equal levels of difficulty to watch, but this scene is slightly harder for me to watch. Why do you think the AR scene is harder to watch?

In the case of the scene with Giles it is the hope and love that is completely crumbled and ripped into pieces. The way that scene was created and executed is just absolutely horridly perfect.
 
I think they are at equal levels of difficulty to watch, but this scene is slightly harder for me to watch. Why do you think the AR scene is harder to watch?

The AR just goes on and on, it doesn't cut away like Giles finding Jenny does. Also the damage that the AR does to both Buffy's and Spike's characters is horrible. Season 6 was a bad season for them but the AR pushed it even further, it's only through the talents of SMG and JM that Spike and Buffy made it through season 6 with any likeability intact.
 
This and Helpless from s3 are among the darkest episodes. I always forget how genuinely scary Angelus could be, in dark stalker and murderer mode (I rewatch s2 comparatively rarely to seasons 3-5
 
This and Helpless from s3 are among the darkest episodes. I always forget how genuinely scary Angelus could be, in dark stalker and murderer mode (I rewatch s2 comparatively rarely to seasons 3-5
I find him much scarier on Buffy than on Angel. I think this was due to the involvement and obsession with Buffy. Angelus in Angel just seemed a bit evil really.
 
Re-watching this episode now.
One thing that sticks out of how old Buffy is that Jenny had to make a computer program to translate Russian into English.

Also Joyce's overreaction to Buffy having sex. Again, showing the show's page.

Jenny wanting Willow to teach a class. Just casually getting a student to teach. Was this a realistic thing from the 90s??

How posh does Giles sound in comparison to other seasons?! His speech certainly changes.

I'm not the biggest fan of season two, but no doubt that as much as Angelus is a cocky prick, he does evil well.
 
Joyce's overreaction to Buffy having sex. Again, showing the show's page

At least here in the USA, many mothers would still act that way. Not all, but plenty. And back then plenty of mothers would've been less shocked and insecure as well.

More importantly, it wasn't just about Buffy having had sex (though that was definitely part of it given Joyce's question about others and then saying she didn't want to know), but that Buffy had sex with a much older man who was obviously dangerous and unbalanced....really, Joyce should've wanted to report Angel to the police right away, I do believe that's what most mothers would've done, even those who would accept their daughters as having sex. Some would do it because they'd assume Angel seduced an easily manipulated kid (not an unreasonable assumption, especially if they believe their daughter isn't exactly right in the head talking about vampires and setting fires), but many who wouldn't automatically do that would if they thought he posed a danger to their daughter as Angel clearly did.
 
Ah I see. I guess it's a culture thing.
I get it that Angel was a dangerous guy but Joyce was really grilling Buffy about the sex part which rubbed me the wrong way. She's 16 in season 2, right? I can say here in Australia that not many parents would care as long as they didn't get pregnant. I know my mum told me when I first started high school if I ever got a boyfriend she would take me to the doctor so I'd go on the pill (Joke was on her for having a gay daughter)

Although I do get it that Angel came across as such a crazy obsessive person when Joyce encountered him.

I think it's unfair though of her to be "You can tell me anything"
Next minute "You slept with this guy! You were stupid and it was a mistake to do so!"
Kind of doesn't really give the trusting element much.
 
Ah I see. I guess it's a culture thing.
I get it that Angel was a dangerous guy but Joyce was really grilling Buffy about the sex part which rubbed me the wrong way. She's 16 in season 2, right? I can say here in Australia that not many parents would care as long as they didn't get pregnant. I know my mum told me when I first started high school if I ever got a boyfriend she would take me to the doctor so I'd go on the pill (Joke was on her for having a gay daughter)

Although I do get it that Angel came across as such a crazy obsessive person when Joyce encountered him.

I think it's unfair though of her to be "You can tell me anything"
Next minute "You slept with this guy! You were stupid and it was a mistake to do so!"
Kind of doesn't really give the trusting element much.
She was 17, she had sex on her birthday. But anyway I'm pretty sure I'm not stereotyping when I say that in the US as long as you are living under your parents' roof they usually have the right to freak out and go crazy and disapprove of anything they want to especially involving sex. I won't rant about that @thrasherpix pretty much covered it. Suddenly I'd like to live in Australia though.
And I'm pretty sure moms never really mean it when they say you can tell me anything. At least I hope so. Because that whole completely spontaneous thing just seems like a horrible idea.
 
Oh that's right! I forgot she was 17. To be honest, that's when most of my friends lost their virginity. Definitely a different culture from Australia.
 
I think it's unfair though of her to be "You can tell me anything"
Next minute "You slept with this guy! You were stupid and it was a mistake to do so!"
Kind of doesn't really give the trusting element much.

I don't have the hate for Joyce that many have, but I do see her as deeply flawed in some ways.

Though going by Band Candy, Joyce was a hell a lot more sexually active as a teen than Buffy was (and maybe she was scared Buffy was the same). 😀

Speaking of which...their positions were pretty much reversed after that with Joyce trying to hide the full details of what she did with Giles and Buffy having a hard time accepting it. 😀
 
I think Joyce's response to Buffy having sex is more down to their close relationship and that she would expect Buffy to tell her about such a thing (of course with Angel being a vamp that might be tricky😉). Think it was also because of how she found out, and how worried she was that Buffy had got herselve involved with the wrong man.
 
Also Joyce's overreaction to Buffy having sex. Again, showing the show's page.

I thought Joyce's reaction was reasonable. Buffy never tells her anything, and she finds out that the guy Buffy slept with is an older man and dangerous. As a mother, if I found out that about my daughter sleeping with a creepy man the same way Joyce did, I'd react far worse.
 
Joyce sees a different Buffy from the rest of us as well. With the notable exception of the attack on Buffy's school, Joyce sees Buffy who is so irresponsible that she can't even pick something up for a mother at the mall without being distracted by a cute boy within moments who then completely forgets (and also wanted to buy a dress that makes her "look like a streetwalker" to which Buffy replies, "But a thin streetwalker"). She doesn't see Buffy going out to save the world, but going to the Bronze (heh, just remembered when Joyce asked if boys would be there and Buffy snarks something about it's where the nuns hang out). Since her arson of a gym and saying it was filled with vampires, Buffy can't even stick with cheerleading anymore. Joyce sees her house is a mess more often than not (like from when Xander and Cordelia are attacked by Bug Guy), which she'd assume was Buffy. God only knows what Snyder told her.

I don't blame Joyce for not trusting Buffy's judgment at all, based on what little she knows and how much she misunderstands based on her limited knowledge and context. ('Course ignoring bloodstains on Buffy's clothes is another matter, though I suppose that doesn't help either.)

That said, Joyce does seem more concerned about the sexual element than about the dangerous element involving Angel. I don't understand that tendency of hers to not see what she doesn't want to see until forced to, so I don't know. Maybe Joyce focuses on the sexual aspect in order to avoid the much more scary thoughts of Angel being a dangerous stalker saying things like, "I'll die without Buffy, she'll die without me." That is, she can't stand the thought of Buffy being killed, so she instead focuses on something that doesn't threaten that possibility.
 
Some good acting in this episode. Boreanaz really nails the creepiness. Sad seeing what he's become, he was one of my favorite characters before he lost his soul and changed.
 
Yeah he is a great antagonist. But I miss the old Angel and his relationship with Buffy. Gellar and Boreanaz seemed to have good chemistry in their romantic scenes together.
You can love both Angelus and Angel, just in a different way. Angelus you can love to hate, for example.
 
I said this elsewhere, but I'll add it again in this thread.

If nothing else, this episode introduced Angelus to us; the real Angelus, that is. We had heard for a year and a half about how vicious, how evil, how heartless Angel's other half was. This is the first time that we experience that for ourselves. The ruthless fashion in which he kills Jenny and arranges her body to inflict maximum damage to Giles is unthinkable and speaks to Angelus' true nature. It was a very well written and well acted episode.

A world away from the Angelus we see in Angel Season 4...
 
Well, what to say? This was probably the best episode of TV I've seen in my life. It sums up what made Buffy special in the early days, and was a true masterpiece.
 
Back
Top Bottom