Discussion of 3.08 "Lover's Walk" - Aired 11/24/1998 (WB-US)

[Cordeliagirl]

I dont like it and dont love it and not fan of it. They should have Angel and Faith cheating with each other on Buffy, then Buffy and Spike cheating with each other on Angel, then Angel and Buffy broke up, Angel with Faith and Buffy with Spike, not Williow and Xander cheating with each other on Oz and Cordelia. Because it is mostly Spike episode because drusilla left him and broke up with him.
 
Or they should have Spike with Faith and Buffy with Harmony
 
Or buffy with Williow and Harmony with Amy?

 

[Guy]

I've seen that video and I understand why people are bothered by this. I can't really give you a reason as to why Buffy forgot the relationship was doomed other than she wanted to. It personally didn't bother me (perhaps because of my bias) and I found that human. People learn things, change their minds and go back and forth, it's never a linear process even if I understand why we want that when it comes to fiction. And you know, sometimes I'm trying to make sense of Buffy's actions in season 6 and I just have to accept that there's no reasonable reason. People learn and unlearn stuff. Even in season 6, Buffy did that many times with Spike. It bothers me more there and I imagine it bothers you more here because you don't care for Bangel.

Yeah, personal feelings affect our understanding of characters. Maybe I would have liked the break-up in 'The Prom' more if I was more of an Angel fan... Then again, it's not like I always dislike Bangel. In fact, I often love their scenes. I love 'Becoming', and 'I will Remember You', and the Bangel scene in 'Forever', etc... Hell, I even love the Bangel scene in the end of 'The Prom' - that bitter-sweet dance is brilliant! But the break-up scene, and Buffy's subsequent crying ("Right now I'm just trying to keep from dying"... Ugh), just feel WRONG.

I do have to stress, though - the most annoying thing about that break-up is the way it shapes Buffy's overall arc. I can easily accept characters changing their minds several times, but in the end it has to GO SOMEWHERE. In season 2, Buffy went from being completely dependent on Angel (to the point that she wouldn't kill Angelus even when he was murdering countless innocents) to being willing to kill him in 'Becoming'. That's a terrific, complete arc. In season 3, however, Buffy's arc is almost the opposite - Buffy goes from being able to cut here ties with Angel in 3x08, to being unable to do it in 3x20 (and it's clearly established that cutting ties with Angel is the right thing to do). It's like Buffy's entire arc in season 3 was about making her forget her lesson from season 2 (at least, in terms of her relationship with Angel. Buffy's character moves forward in other areas, like her relationship with the scoobies). In the end, Angel is the one who makes the decision, and Buffy just reluctantly accepts it, and I hate that. It's like if Spike would have been the one to break up with Buffy in the end of season 6 - it would have felt completely wrong, and it would have made the whole thing feel pointless.

I'll rephrase it - up to that point. Don't worry, my memory is just fine.

I'm sorry if I sounded smug in that post... I don't want to doubt anyone's memory! My own memory is ridiculously crappy.😳

It seems like for Buffy, for her personally, she took it harder by having a more involved relationship then leaving. Since that's what we see on screen.

Yes, but that's the "that's what they did, so it must have been in-character" argument, which is simply not true. The whole magic of storytelling is about making us understand why these characters do what they do.

To be fair, I think the writing could have been better but still have that emotional theme. Marti Noxon's writing can be so melodramatic at times. A bit Dawson Creek.

I actually love most of Noxon's writing. Even in 'The Prom' itself - I love that final dance! Personally, I don't think that this is a problem with the writing of this episode - I think it's a problem with Buffy's arc throughout season 3. And that's a Joss issue, not a Noxon issue. Joss is the one who decided to have Buffy go from "What I want from you I can never have" to "I want my life to be with you" over the course of season 3. In fact, I find most the Bangel interactions in 'Graduation Day' (which was written by Joss) to be just as infuriating as the break-up in 'The Prom', if not more.

Ugh.

I see a clear difference in the break ups from Lover's Walk and from The Prom. In Lover's Walk they aren't even a real couple, she is just helping him since he has come back from hell.

She still loves him. And she's still in the euphoria of getting him back from death. Breaking up with him at that point is still extremely hard for her - but she does it, because she learned her lesson, and she's thinking clearly.

Well, clearly denying logic because she is in love with him they get back together. Now they are a real couple and Angel breaks up with her out of no where. At least that's what it feels like to her. Because by this point they are going to movies, she is sleeping over, they are planning on going to the prom. They are trying to be as normal of a couple as a slayer and vampire with a soul can be. I also think by this point in the series Buffy has accepted that she has an expiration date and that her life is never going to be normal because she will always have to fight demons. So she figures why not be with the person that makes me happy even if he is immortal and cursed.

Because one thing can lead to another, and then he becomes a murderous monster again? And given that the curse isn't specifically about sex, they can very easily trigger it simply by being together, even in a non-physical way. And Buffy KNOWS all this. That's why she broke up with him in 'Lovers Walk'. Logically, she shouldn't have any hope for her relationship with Angel in 3x20.

So when he breaks up with her there goes her happiness. Also this time he says he is leaving town for good. It's the end of this break up get back together cycle. There is a finality in this break up that was never there in the previous break ups. In all of the other breaks they were still constantly around each other because of location, demons, apocalypses, etc. Now, he is leaving and not coming back. This will force them to be a part for good.

'Lovers Walk' was a final break-up too. Buffy had no intention of turning it into a break-up-and-get-back-together cycle at the time. And it's not like Angel can't come back after he leaves.

What baffles me is how anyone could think it makes anymore sense for Buffy to sleep with/date Spike after her relationship with Angel. She already knows vampires are immortal and she is not. Has she learned nothing? Certainly not, but circumstances intervene which leads to her relationship with Spike. However, If Buffy ever had character regression or deterioration it was during the Spuffy seasons not the Bangel ones. I saw all of her actions with Angel as very human but she almost always had personal growth even if she slipped up some.

I don't want to turn this into a shipping war... But oh well:

The different is that the Spuffy relationship and the Bangel relationship had different problems. With Bangel, the problem was the curse. If there was no curse, Buffy and Angel could easily be together. With Spuffy, there was no curse, and there were other problems instead.

And if anything, the character deterioration was in season 3 - season 3 is when Buffy went from breaking up with Angel (in 3x08), which was the right thing to do, to "I want my life to be with you" (in 3x20).

 

[BuffyBot22]

She still loves him. And she's still in the euphoria of getting him back from death. Breaking up with him at that point is still extremely hard for her - but she does it, because she learned her lesson, and she's thinking clearly.



Because one thing can lead to another, and then he becomes a murderous monster again? And given that the curse isn't specifically about sex, they can very easily trigger it simply by being together, even in a non-physical way. And Buffy KNOWS all this. That's why she broke up with him in 'Lovers Walk'. Logically, she shouldn't have any hope for her relationship with Angel in 3x20.



'Lovers Walk' was a final break-up too. Buffy had no intention of turning it into a break-up-and-get-back-together cycle at the time. And it's not like Angel can't come back after he leaves.



I don't want to turn this into a shipping war... But oh well:

The different is that the Spuffy relationship and the Bangel relationship had different problems. With Bangel, the problem was the curse. If there was no curse, Buffy and Angel could easily be together. With Spuffy, there was no curse, and there were other problems instead.

And if anything, the character deterioration was in season 3 - season 3 is when Buffy went from breaking up with Angel (in 3x08), which was the right thing to do, to "I want my life to be with you" (in 3x20).

Of course, it was hard for her to let him go in Lover's Walk, but he had been gone for months and she had somewhat adjusted to not having him in her presence. Then he comes back and it's mostly Buffy taking care of him to get him back to his full strength. Then she realized he was better and she needed to walk away.
After she helped him in Amends they got close again, formed a more real/normal/functional relationship and when the break up happened she was blind sighted because she thought they were trying to make this work against all odds. I'm not saying it's logical, but emotions aren't logical. I feel like you want a logical reasoning behind emotions and it's just usually not there...

Yes, it is risky to be together and they acknowledge it. But, I think at this point Buffy and Angel both believe that sex with Buffy is the key to the curse being broken not simply being around each other. He is also aware now that he can trigger the curse, so I'm certain he tries to not allow himself to ever feel truly happy which isn't hard for Angel because we all know how much he broods anyways lol.

There was still a more defined finality in The Prom. Angel was leaving and not coming back. After Lover's Walk, they were still in the same town, fighting the same demons, hanging out in the same graveyard. They were bound to still be around each other which they were in basically every episode.

I wasn't trying to turn it into a shipping war, I was simply comparing her character growth/regression which I assume we will just have to agree to disagree on because I don't see character regression in season 3, I see a person who was in a relationship and in love who got hurt. In the later seasons I see a person who goes from being a true hero to literally sleeping with the enemy and isolating herself from humanity.

 

[Guy]

Of course, it was hard for her to let him go in Lover's Walk, but he had been gone for months and she had somewhat adjusted to not having him in her presence. Then he comes back and it's mostly Buffy taking care of him to get him back to his full strength. Then she realized he was better and she needed to walk away.
After she helped him in Amends they got close again, formed a more real/normal/functional relationship and when the break up happened she was blind sighted because she thought they were trying to make this work against all odds. I'm not saying it's logical, but emotions aren't logical. I feel like you want a logical reasoning behind emotions and it's just usually not there...

I'm perfectly fine with emotional motives, but I want a logical progression of the characters. In 3x08, Buffy showed that she was logical about the whole thing, and able to make the right decision despite her love for Angel. In 3x20, she was NOT logical anymore, and was ruled by her emotions when it comes to Angel. That's character deterioration, and that annoys me.

Yes, it is risky to be together and they acknowledge it. But, I think at this point Buffy and Angel both believe that sex with Buffy is the key to the curse being broken not simply being around each other. He is also aware now that he can trigger the curse, so I'm certain he tries to not allow himself to ever feel truly happy which isn't hard for Angel because we all know how much he broods anyways lol.

So, they decide to bet that the curse IS a sex thing (although they can't be sure of that), AND bet that they never give in to their emotions and sleep together (despite their unintended smooches in the past)? That's a big dumb risk, considering how dangerous the consequences are. Again, this shows Buffy being illogical. If she was being logical, then she would have known that she can't be with Angel. And she DID know it, in 3x08.

There was still a more defined finality in The Prom. Angel was leaving and not coming back. After Lover's Walk, they were still in the same town, fighting the same demons, hanging out in the same graveyard. They were bound to still be around each other which they were in basically every episode.

Their breakup in 'The Prom' had more finality? Maybe, but only a little. Buffy had to know that Angel might leave town after their breakup in 'Lovers Walk'. And Angel can always come back after their breakup in 'The Prom'. This is a minor difference, not a major one.

I wasn't trying to turn it into a shipping war, I was simply comparing her character growth/regression which I assume we will just have to agree to disagree on because I don't see character regression in season 3, I see a person who was in a relationship and in love who got hurt. In the later seasons I see a person who goes from being a true hero to literally sleeping with the enemy and isolating herself from humanity.

In season 3, I see a person who forgets a lesson that she already learned several times. In season 6, I see a person learning a new lesson. That's why season 3 feels like regression (in the Bangel aspect), while season 6 feels like progression, to me.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I'm perfectly fine with emotional motives, but I want a logical progression of the characters. In 3x08, Buffy showed that she was logical about the whole thing, and able to make the right decision despite her love for Angel. In 3x20, she was NOT logical anymore, and was ruled by her emotions when it comes to Angel. That's character deterioration, and that annoys me.



So, they decide to bet that the curse IS a sex thing (although they can't be sure of that), AND bet that they never give in to their emotions and sleep together (despite their unintended smooches in the past)? That's a big dumb risk, considering how dangerous the consequences are. Again, this shows Buffy being illogical. If she was being logical, then she would have known that she can't be with Angel. And she DID know it, in 3x08.



Their breakup in 'The Prom' had more finality? Maybe, but only a little. Buffy had to know that Angel might leave town after their breakup in 'Lovers Walk'. And Angel can always come back after their breakup in 'The Prom'. This is a minor difference, not a major one.



In season 3, I see a person who forgets a lesson that she already learned several times. In season 6, I see a person learning a new lesson. That's why season 3 feels like regression (in the Bangel aspect), while season 6 feels like progression, to me.

I don't see it as illogical. You do. We are clearly not going to convince each other otherwise.

I highly doubt they would sleep together. Even once he was human in IWRY, they showed hesitation and restraint before giving in. And in this case there was no curse consequence.

Yes, he could have moved away but he never said that he was. In The Prom Buffy says "How am I supposed to stay away from you?" This indicates how every time in the past that they have tried to end things and be a part they never were because they were still constantly around each other. He then replies "I'm leaving." He knows it's the only way that they won't fall back into old patterns. Seems like a major difference rather than a minor one to me.

In season 6, she constantly went back to sleep with Spike (a soulless vampire) over and over again. She knew it was wrong, yet she kept doing it. Sure, she made the final break, but then again did she? She let him back into her home in season 7 with very little discussion over what happened in Seeing Red after she ended things with him. Looks more like character regression here than a change of emotions in season 3.

 

[GraceK]

@BuffyBot22 I agree with your entire post.

@Guy , I think as was said above, your looking for some concrete, logical reason for Buffy's more extreme reaction to Angel leaving. For you, personally, their relationship or her feelings for him don't seem to resonate with you and that's fine. 🙂 but I think Spike said it best in this episode. ::

Spike: The last time I looked in on you two, you were fightin' to the death. Now you're back making googly-eyes at each other like nothing happened. Makes me want to heave.

Buffy: I don't know what you're talking about.

Spike: Oh, yeah. You're just friends.

Angel: That's right.

Spike: You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight and you'll shag and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.

I think that's says it all actually when it comes to Bangel. There IS no logic to it. And she tried to be LOGICAL at the end of this episode and walk away from him, but It didn't work. The blood was screaming inside her to work its will LOL, hence there reconciliation later in the season. As much as I love Buffy, she has never been able to think clearly when it comes to Angel. He is always her priority and she can never really walk away, not at that time anyway. She gets stronger later in the series.

Angel is made of stronger stuff I think when it comes to their relationship. He comes to the same conclusion that she did, that as long as they are around each other they will never really be free of those feelings. And temptation will always be there. He is able to make the decision however to leave, cause I think he realizes that it is the only way for her to really move on. That's why to me she is so devastated, in The Prom, because she convinced herself that they can make it work against all odds and she really let herself go with her feelings for him. So reality is a harsh slap in the face, especially coming from him and the extreme step he's taking by leaving. At that moment she feels she really has lost him forever.

I don't think it's regression for her character at all. She allowed herself to indulge in a fantasy and that's human. I think character regression would be if in the Episode Forever, she didn't let him leave. But she did . She had gained more self awareness by then to let him go. I think season3 absolutely progressed her character. It was the bookend that was needed for Bangel.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's always funny to me when people try to find LOGIC in love. If love was logical we humans would probably be much better off. The fact however is that love is not logical. Because you either feel it or you don't. If only love was logical we would be much more rational as humans. And most of the problems we have with love and relationships wouldn't exist, including the irrational/illogical decisions we make because of it.

For an example, lets say you have the most perfect human being in love with you. Everyone around you keeps saying that you can't get a better match. Logically you know you should be in love with that person too because hey, they are perfect. But you just don't feel it. Love isn't something you can force or pretend to feel because your mind tells you too. You either feel it or you don't.

 

[Guy]

I don't see it as illogical. You do. We are clearly not going to convince each other otherwise.

Well, "Agree to disagree" was invented for such cases 🙂

I highly doubt they would sleep together. Even once he was human in IWRY, they showed hesitation and restraint before giving in. And in this case there was no curse consequence.

Even if they wouldn't sleep together (which, I'm less convinced about that. Remember "love isn't brains"?), the curse may still be activated simply by them sleeping in each other's arms, which they were doing by 3x20. It was playing with fire.

Yes, he could have moved away but he never said that he was. In The Prom Buffy says "How am I supposed to stay away from you?" This indicates how every time in the past that they have tried to end things and be a part they never were because they were still constantly around each other. He then replies "I'm leaving." He knows it's the only way that they won't fall back into old patterns. Seems like a major difference rather than a minor one to me.

But in 3x08, Buffy didn't know that she was in for a constant cycle of coming back together. As far as she knew, this was the end. She saw their breakup as final - and yet she didn't break down the way she did in 3x20.

In season 6, she constantly went back to sleep with Spike (a soulless vampire) over and over again. She knew it was wrong, yet she kept doing it.

Sure, that was the process, the struggle that led to progression. Just like in season 2 Buffy always knew that she had to kill Angelus, but couldn't do it until 2x22.

Sure, she made the final break, but then again did she? She let him back into her home in season 7 with very little discussion over what happened in Seeing Red after she ended things with him. Looks more like character regression here than a change of emotions in season 3.

It's not regression, because it doesn't contradict Buffy's lesson from season 6. In season 6, Buffy learned that she shouldn't be using Spike the way she did, and shouldn't let him abuse her the way he did. In season 7, Buffy didn't start using Spike again, and she didn't let him abuse her again. So, Buffy's character did not regress.

But in 3x08, Buffy's lesson was that she can't be with Angel ("What I want from you I can never have") - and yet, in 3x20 she wanted to be with Angel again ("I want my life to be with you"). Hence, regression.

@Guy , I think as was said above, your looking for some concrete, logical reason for Buffy's more extreme reaction to Angel leaving. For you, personally, their relationship or her feelings for him don't seem to resonate with you and that's fine. 🙂 but I think Spike said it best in this episode. ::

Spike: The last time I looked in on you two, you were fightin' to the death. Now you're back making googly-eyes at each other like nothing happened. Makes me want to heave.

Buffy: I don't know what you're talking about.

Spike: Oh, yeah. You're just friends.

Angel: That's right.

Spike: You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight and you'll shag and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.

I think that's says it all actually when it comes to Bangel. There IS no logic to it. And she tried to be LOGICAL at the end of this episode and walk away from him, but It didn't work. The blood was screaming inside her to work its will LOL, hence there reconciliation later in the season.

They have no choice in their feelings for each other, sure. But they DO have a choice in who they're with. Buffy broke up with Angel in 3x08. Angel broke up with her in 3x20. Clearly, there IS a choice there. It IS possible to be logical, and break off the relationship. My issue is with the way that break-up ended up happening.

As much as I love Buffy, she has never been able to think clearly when it comes to Angel. He is always her priority and she can never really walk away, not at that time anyway. She gets stronger later in the series.

Angel is made of stronger stuff I think when it comes to their relationship.

giphy.com/gifs/the-office-no-steve-carell-12XMGIWtrHBl5e

In 3x08, Angel was the one who couldn't accept the breakup. Literally, he said "I don't accept that". That's why 3x20 annoys me even more - it shows that Angel grew over the course of the season, while Buffy regressed. Which, screw that!

If Angel was smart enough to understand that they can't be together in 3x20, then Buffy has to be smart enough to do it too. She should be able to do it much more easily, actually, since she already did it, in 3x08, when he couldn't.

That fact is EXACTLY why this issue bugs me so much. The whole "Angel is stronger than Buffy when it comes to relationships" thing sprang out of nowhere in the second half of season 3, and served no purpose other than to sacrifice Buffy's arc to serve Angel's. Buffy was always the stronger one before that.

I think season3 absolutely progressed her character. It was the bookend that was needed for Bangel.

'Becoming' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. 'I will Remember You' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. Season 3 (when it comes to the Bangel stuff) was just a regression from season 2, IMO.

 

[Cordeliagirl]

I dont like it they have Willow and Xander cheating with each other on Oz and Cordelia in Lovers walk episode, and i dont like cheating. They should have buffy broke up with Angel, and move on to Spike and be with Spike and Angel with Faith or buffy with Williow or Harmony, and have Amy with Harmony or Anya.

 

[GraceK]

Well, "Agree to disagree" was invented for such cases 🙂



Even if they wouldn't sleep together (which, I'm less convinced about that. Remember "love isn't brains"?), the curse may still be activated simply by them sleeping in each other's arms, which they were doing by 3x20. It was playing with fire.



But in 3x08, Buffy didn't know that she was in for a constant cycle of coming back together. As far as she knew, this was the end. She saw their breakup as final - and yet she didn't break down the way she did in 3x20.



Sure, that was the process, the struggle that led to progression. Just like in season 2 Buffy always knew that she had to kill Angelus, but couldn't do it until 2x22.



It's not regression, because it doesn't contradict Buffy's lesson from season 6. In season 6, Buffy learned that she shouldn't be using Spike the way she did, and shouldn't let him abuse her the way he did. In season 7, Buffy didn't start using Spike again, and she didn't let him abuse her again. So, Buffy's character did not regress.

But in 3x08, Buffy's lesson was that she can't be with Angel ("What I want from you I can never have") - and yet, in 3x20 she wanted to be with Angel again ("I want my life to be with you"). Hence, regression.



They have no choice in their feelings for each other, sure. But they DO have a choice in who they're with. Buffy broke up with Angel in 3x08. Angel broke up with her in 3x20. Clearly, there IS a choice there. It IS possible to be logical, and break off the relationship. My issue is with the way that break-up ended up happening.

giphy.com/gifs/the-office-no-steve-carell-12XMGIWtrHBl5e

In 3x08, Angel was the one who couldn't accept the breakup. Literally, he said "I don't accept that". That's why 3x20 annoys me even more - it shows that Angel grew over the course of the season, while Buffy regressed. Which, screw that!

If Angel was smart enough to understand that they can't be together in 3x20, then Buffy has to be smart enough to do it too. She should be able to do it much more easily, actually, since she already did it, in 3x08, when he couldn't.

That fact is EXACTLY why this issue bugs me so much. The whole "Angel is stronger than Buffy when it comes to relationships" thing sprang out of nowhere in the second half of season 3, and served no purpose other than to sacrifice Buffy's arc to serve Angel's. Buffy was always the stronger one before that.



'Becoming' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. 'I will Remember You' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. Season 3 (when it comes to the Bangel stuff) was just a regression from season 2, IMO.

Well, that's how you see it. This conversation has been going in circles for days. No matter how many people respond to you with carefully thought out answers and perspectives, you don't agree and you keep arguing. Your insisting that Buffy should act and feel a certain way, even though literally everything shown on screen and her own words contradicts it. At this point Joss himself could answer and you would still insist that's he wrong .

You asked a question, and have received numerous answers. Did you really want an answer or do you just want to argue about their relationship in general?

If your waiting for someone to confirm for you that Bangel is crap and Spuffy is better , then you have a whole separate section for that for Bangel bashing.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, I'm just honestly baffled at this point to what is exactly your looking for.

 

[Guy]

Well, that's how you see it. This conversation has been going in circles for days. No matter how many people respond to you with carefully thought out answers and perspectives, you don't agree and you keep arguing. Your insisting that Buffy should act and feel a certain way, even though literally everything shown on screen and her own words contradicts it. At this point Joss himself could answer and you would still insist that's he wrong .

You asked a question, and have received numerous answers. Did you really want an answer or do you just want to argue about their relationship in general?

If your waiting for someone to confirm for you that Bangel is crap and Spuffy is better , then you have a whole separate section for that for Bangel bashing.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, I'm just honestly baffled at this point to what is exactly your looking for.

My original question was answered in that other thread. This is just about 'The Prom' (and season 3 Bangel in general, I guess).

My opinions don't contradict anything shown on screen. As I said, if Buffy was strong enough to break up with Angel in 3x08, when he was NOT strong enough to accept it, then it makes NO sense that the reverse would happen in 3x20. If time has made it harder for Bangel to break-up, then Angel should find it even harder to do than Buffy. I honestly don't understand how anyone could see it differently, but hey - that's the beauty of art. 🙂We all see different things in it.

What do I want? I don't want anything. I'm just posting my thoughts on a Buffy-related issue. If you want to talk about it, great. If you don't, then we can just agree to disagree. That's perfectly fine. Isn't that how forums work?

EDIT: Crap, I just noticed that I posted this on the 'Lovers Walk' thread, instead of the 'Prom' thread like I wanted. Damn.

 

[GraceK]

My original question was answered in that other thread. This is just about 'The Prom' (and season 3 Bangel in general, I guess).

My opinions don't contradict anything shown on screen. As I said, if Buffy was strong enough to break up with Angel in 3x08, when he was NOT strong enough to accept it, then it makes NO sense that the reverse would happen in 3x20. If time has made it harder for Bangel to break-up, then Angel should find it even harder to do than Buffy. I honestly don't understand how anyone could see it differently, but hey - that's the beauty of art. 🙂We all see different things in it.

What do I want? I don't want anything. I'm just posting my thoughts on a Buffy-related issue. If you want to talk about it, great. If you don't, then we can just agree to disagree. That's perfectly fine. Isn't that how forums work?

EDIT: Crap, I just noticed that I posted this on the 'Lovers Walk' thread, instead of the 'Prom' thread like I wanted. Damn.

My apology on saying you were asking a question...that was the old thread 🙂

Sorry I came off so defensive...your 100% correct that this is exactly what forums are for 🙂 and art is subjective, we all see different things.

 

[Guy]

My apology on saying you were asking a question...that was the old thread 🙂

Sorry I came off so defensive...your 100% correct that this is exactly what forums are for 🙂 and art is subjective, we all see different things.

giphy.com/gifs/krysten-ritter-nycc-mike-colter-13u8stkGFfVZmM

I'm sorry too, I was being too argumentative... I just get defensive over my Buffy😳
 

I love all the GIFS you post!!! 😛

I'm considering moving to purely gif-based interactions with human beings... Those seem to be much more popular 😀

 

[Antho]

They should have buffy broke up with Angel, and move on to Spike and be with Spike and Angel with Faith or buffy with Williow or Harmony, and have Amy with Harmony or Anya.

Everyone with everyone 😛

 

[Cordeliagirl]

Everyone with everyone 😛

Yep Everyone with Everyone. Buffy with Harmony or Spike, and Xander with Cordelia and Oz with Willow and Anya with Andrew and Amy with Doyle or Tara or Gunn and Wesley with Fred or Faith and Angel with Anya or Harmony or Faith and Faith with Spike or Wesley or Angel and Spike with Drusilla or Buffy or Faith, and Doyle with Amy or Tara or Dawn😉

 

[RomanticSoul]

As I said, if Buffy was strong enough to break up with Angel in 3x08, when he was NOT strong enough to accept it, then it makes NO sense that the reverse would happen in 3x20.

Just one question about that. How do you break up with someone you aren't in a relationship with?😕

Far as I could see B/A weren't together in the couply sense in 3x08. Didn't Angel still think she was dating Scott at that point? All I saw was Buffy walking away from Angel, period, because there are still romantic feelings. But IMO you can't break up with someone you aren't even with.

 

[Guy]

Just one question about that. How do you break up with someone you aren't in a relationship with?😕

Far as I could see B/A weren't together in the couply sense in 3x08. Didn't Angel still think she was dating Scott at that point? All I saw was Buffy walking away from Angel, period, because there are still romantic feelings. But IMO you can't break up with someone you aren't even with.

I honestly don't remember when she told Angel about breaking up with Scott... But I remember that Scott broke up with her in 3x05, and I remember that Buffy and Angel were smooching in 3x07. So I'm guessing that Angel knew by then, because I don't think that he'd be cool with smooching Buffy when she has a boyfriend. (Or would he...?)

Anyway... You're right, it wasn't technically a break-up, because they weren't officially dating before then (although, Spike would say that they WERE in a relationship, and were just kidding themselves when they denied it). But it was still Buffy realizing that she can't be with Angel, and deciding to sever ties with him. Which is just what Angel realized and did in 'The Prom'.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Well, "Agree to disagree" was invented for such cases 🙂



Even if they wouldn't sleep together (which, I'm less convinced about that. Remember "love isn't brains"?), the curse may still be activated simply by them sleeping in each other's arms, which they were doing by 3x20. It was playing with fire.



But in 3x08, Buffy didn't know that she was in for a constant cycle of coming back together. As far as she knew, this was the end. She saw their breakup as final - and yet she didn't break down the way she did in 3x20.



Sure, that was the process, the struggle that led to progression. Just like in season 2 Buffy always knew that she had to kill Angelus, but couldn't do it until 2x22.



It's not regression, because it doesn't contradict Buffy's lesson from season 6. In season 6, Buffy learned that she shouldn't be using Spike the way she did, and shouldn't let him abuse her the way he did. In season 7, Buffy didn't start using Spike again, and she didn't let him abuse her again. So, Buffy's character did not regress.

But in 3x08, Buffy's lesson was that she can't be with Angel ("What I want from you I can never have") - and yet, in 3x20 she wanted to be with Angel again ("I want my life to be with you"). Hence, regression.



They have no choice in their feelings for each other, sure. But they DO have a choice in who they're with. Buffy broke up with Angel in 3x08. Angel broke up with her in 3x20. Clearly, there IS a choice there. It IS possible to be logical, and break off the relationship. My issue is with the way that break-up ended up happening.

giphy.com/gifs/the-office-no-steve-carell-12XMGIWtrHBl5e

In 3x08, Angel was the one who couldn't accept the breakup. Literally, he said "I don't accept that". That's why 3x20 annoys me even more - it shows that Angel grew over the course of the season, while Buffy regressed. Which, screw that!

If Angel was smart enough to understand that they can't be together in 3x20, then Buffy has to be smart enough to do it too. She should be able to do it much more easily, actually, since she already did it, in 3x08, when he couldn't.

That fact is EXACTLY why this issue bugs me so much. The whole "Angel is stronger than Buffy when it comes to relationships" thing sprang out of nowhere in the second half of season 3, and served no purpose other than to sacrifice Buffy's arc to serve Angel's. Buffy was always the stronger one before that.



'Becoming' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. 'I will Remember You' was a beautiful bookend for Bangel. Season 3 (when it comes to the Bangel stuff) was just a regression from season 2, IMO.

Well agree to disagree about her character regression/progression in season 3. I think she progressed, but she got her heart broken in the process. She wanted her life to be with him 3x08 as well, but she walked away because she thought he couldn't give her what she needed. Later on she gives it a try and seems to be getting what she needs/wants from the relationship and then Angel ends it after allowing Joyce and the Mayor to get into his head which allowed him to see that he never could give her normal life. It was the first time he ever had any real outside input and I think he really took what Joyce said to heart. She basically told him he had to be the one to walk away because all she could see was him, which was true at this point in the story because they were in a good place. In 3x08 they weren't even a couple.

I do like your view on s6 Buffy. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it. I'll let you know after my rewatch of s6/s7. I'm currently on s5. From what I remember, I saw character regression and a story all about Spike and his redemption.

With Bangel, to me the story was always about Buffy and slightly about Angel.

Of course you have a choice to end relationships, but it's never cut and dry or that simple when emotions are involved. Humans are irrational beings driven by emotion.

 

[Guy]

Well agree to disagree about her character regression/progression in season 3. I think she progressed, but she got her heart broken in the process. She wanted her life to be with him 3x08 as well, but she walked away because she thought he couldn't give her what she needed. Later on she gives it a try and seems to be getting what she needs/wants from the relationship and then Angel ends it after allowing Joyce and the Mayor to get into his head which allowed him to see that he never could give her normal life.

Interesting... I have a question: Do you think that Buffy made the right decision by wanting to be with Angel in a long-term relationship in season 3? Or do you think that Angel was right when he ended it? I mean, it has to be one or the other, they can't both be right. I always felt that the narrative was clear about the fact that their relationship was a bad idea, and that Buffy was wrong to want it. Based on that, I always saw Buffy's desire to be with Angel in 3x20 as regression - in 3x08 she knew to stay away from him, which was right, and in 3x20 she regressed by wanting to be with him. But if you think that Buffy was right to be with him, then it would obviously look different to you...

I do like your view on s6 Buffy. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it. I'll let you know after my rewatch of s6/s7. I'm currently on s5. From what I remember, I saw character regression and a story all about Spike and his redemption.

Well, I hope you'll like it better this time 🙂

With Bangel, to me the story was always about Buffy and slightly about Angel.

Funny, the things that annoy you about Spuffy (that it was all about Spike. Which I disagree about, obviously) are exactly what bugged me about season 3 Bangel - that it served Angel's story and not Buffy's...😉

Of course you have a choice to end relationships, but it's never cut and dry or that simple when emotions are involved. Humans are irrational beings driven by emotion.

I think that humans are partially emotional and partially logical. It's definitely easy to act logically... But it's not impossible, either.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I honestly don't remember when she told Angel about breaking up with Scott... But I remember that Scott broke up with her in 3x05, and I remember that Buffy and Angel were smooching in 3x07. So I'm guessing that Angel knew by then, because I don't think that he'd be cool with smooching Buffy when she has a boyfriend. (Or would he...?)

All I remember was that by 3.06 Angel still thought she was dating Scott and Buffy didn't tell him they broke up. So it must have been one of those off-screen things between 3.06 and 3.07.

Anyway... You're right, it wasn't technically a break-up, because they weren't officially dating before then (although, Spike would say that they WERE in a relationship, and were just kidding themselves when they denied it).

Technically they didn't because for a break to occur you actually have to be with someone first. And Spike has a screwed up view of love anyway so he's no authority to me on that one.

But it was still Buffy realizing that she can't be with Angel, and deciding to sever ties with him. Which is just what Angel realized and did in 'The Prom'.

As someone else mentioned before, Buffy had already gotten used to life without Angel after she sent him to hell and tried to move on. She wanted to keep that going and realized that there are still feelings there on both sides. As long as that was the case it was better for them not to physically be around each other. But Buffy's feelings for Angel hadn't ever changed during that whole time so for me her reaction in 3.20 is no big deal.

IMO though I don't get the problem when it comes to 3.08 and 3.20. In the former they weren't together and in the latter they were. So only the latter was an actual break up. As to Buffy regressing, again that's looking for logic in love. There is none. While you don't get it, Xander doesn't get it and even I don't get it...it just is. Because that's love. You can't chose who you love.

Like I've said before there are chemical and biological things that happen in your body when it comes to attraction and even love. And generally it makes no sense. It might not even make sense to Buffy and Angel. Because it just is.

From a non-B/A shipper POV like mine, the show since S1 has made it clear that these two are drawn to each other. Despite everything. Despite what they are (slayer/vampire, human/immortal), despite what her friends said, despite their reservations, despite logic and reason, despite them trying to walk away from each other every year, despite the curse and despite the doomed nature of their relationship. As long as they were in each others worlds that was not going to change. Which is why Angel leaving town was the only way out.