Discussion of 3.08 "Lover's Walk" - Aired 11/24/1998 (WB-US)

[GraceK]

So this is my last attempt @Guy to try and make sense of this for you 🙂 Ok here's the transcript from Lovers Walk from that scene::

ANGEL
I wondered when you were coming.

BUFFY
I'm not coming back.


He takes this in. Maybe it's not a total shock, but it still feels like a body blow.


BUFFY
We're not friends. Never were. I
can fool Giles, I can fool my
friends, but I can't fool myself. Or
Spike, for some reason. What I want
from you, I can never have. You
don't need me to take care of you any
more, so I'm gonna go.


ANGEL
I don't accept that.


BUFFY
You have to.


ANGEL
There must be some way we can still
see each other.


BUFFY
There is. Just tell me you don't love me.


He is silent. After a long beat, she leaves. He lets her.

Now the next time they are Even seen talking to each other is Amends. Here's the first scene


Angel makes his way through the throng, walking off nightmares. He does not make eye contact with people, so it's no surprise that he almost physically bumps into Buffy.

She is laden down with packages, and stops cold to see him.



BUFFY
Oh!

ANGEL
Hi.

BUFFY
Hi.


A beat.


BUFFY
So, are you... shopping? You're
probably not shopping.


ANGEL
Couldn't sleep.

BUFFY
Vampires probably not that big on
Christmas, now I'm thinking about
it...

ANGEL
Not as a rule.


Another beat.


BUFFY
But you're doing okay.

L
ANGEL
I'm all right. You?




BUFFY
Yeah! I'm good. Just, uh, getting
some presents for the gang. I
should probably hurry, I gotta get
to the magic shop... Angel?


He's not looking at her any more. He's staring off at something else. Something bad.

ANGLE: ANGEL'S POV

Standing in the middle of the crowd is Daniel. He stands stock still as everything around him moves in slow motion.

Still in the clothes he died in. Staring at us.

A moment more, and he moves off.



BUFFY
Angel?


She looks to see what he saw, but there is nothing. Turns back to him.


BUFFY
What is it?


Angel cannot reply.

Ok so I posted this scene because you can tell it's the first time they have seen each other since she "dumped" him. Something is very clearly wrong with Angel, and since she still loves him, she's worried. This whole episode she is sharing dreams with him, and trying to help him with what's haunting him. Their connection here is very strong. The whole point of this episode is people trying to make Amends with each other. Willow and Oz, Faith and Buffy, Giles and Angel, and finally Angel and Buffy. There whole last scene with
Them on the hill is them FINALLY having it out about season 2, and Buffy literally pulling him back from the brInk of despair and letting him know she still loves him.

ANGEL
(bitterly)
Am I a thing worth saving? Am I a
righteous man? The world wants
me gone.


Weakness overcomes her, tears finally spilling out as she implores:


BUFFY
What about me? What about -
Angel I love you so much --
(sobbing)
-- and I've tried to make you go
away, I killed you and it didn't
help...


She pulls away from him and stands, anger surfacing through her tears.


BUFFY
And I hate it. I hate that it's so
hard... that you can hurt me so
much... I know everything you've
done because you did it to me. I
wish I wished you dead. But I don't.
I can't.


He is also crying, wanting so badly to take comfort in her words...



ANGEL
Buffy, please... just this once...
let me be strong.




BUFFY
Strong is fighting. It's hard and
it's painful and it's every day.
It's what we have to do and we can do
it together, but if you're too much
of a coward for that then burn.




ANGEL
Buffy --




BUFFY
Let the sun kill you! If I can't
convince you you have a place in the
world, then I don't know what will.
So die. But don't expect me to
watch, and don't expect me to mourn
for you, 'cause, I don't have... I...


They've started about halfway through her speech. Light, just a few flakes at first, but by the time she stops they are all around. She looks about her. So does Angel. They look up at the sky, almost unable to comprehend the fact that it's snowing.

Slowly, they turn to look out on the town. The camera moves past them and arms up toward the vista. A thick and silent snow falls over the whole of Sunnydale.


Super dramatic yes lol. But clearly this scene shows that no matter what she said in Lovers Walk, it's not over for her. It's very plain that no matter how she tries to move on , she CANT. THis whole episode can be considered their reconciliation...after this they are officially together again.

Also, they go through a lot together after this. She almost dies in Earshot and he saves her, she trusts him in Bad Girls with the amulet and then to help Faith in consequences. then he pretends to be evil in Enemies, she takes a break, and by Choices they are once again firmly back together. Earshot brings them even closer Actually.

So yes, that's why is so devastating in the Prom when he actually ends it. Cause this time he is leaving town, and this time it Is HIM that has comes to terms with them having to be apart. And she's blindsided by it. One moment they are fine she thinks, and the next he's making this extreme decision to leave. And hes not giving her a choice or leaving any room for them to reconcile.

You act like that scene in Lovers walk is the be all end all. It's actually pretty early in the season and Bangel goes through a lot after that.
Does it make any Sense now for you?
 
Took me awhile to write this so I missed all the other posts lol!

 

[Guy]

As someone else mentioned before, Buffy had already gotten used to life without Angel after she sent him to hell and tried to move on. She wanted to keep that going and realized that there are still feelings there on both sides. As long as that was the case it was better for them not to physically be around each other. But Buffy's feelings for Angel hadn't ever changed during that whole time so for me her reaction in 3.20 is no big deal.

IMO though I don't get the problem when it comes to 3.08 and 3.20. In the former they weren't together and in the latter they were. So only the latter was an actual break up. As to Buffy regressing, again that's looking for logic in love. There is none. While you don't get it, Xander doesn't get it and even I don't get it...it just is. Because that's love. You can't chose who you love.

Again - You can't choose who you love, but you can choose what to do about it. And if being with Angel is wrong, and if Buffy decided NOT to be with him in 3x08, and then decided to be with him in 3x20, then that's regression. And it has nothing to do with emotions - as you said, Buffy loved Angel in 3x08 too. The only difference is that in 3x08 she did the logical thing, and in 3x20 she did the emotional thing. And that change annoyed me. It's one of the very few times in which Buffy felt whiny to me...

Like I've said before there are chemical and biological things that happen in your body when it comes to attraction and even love. And generally it makes no sense. It might not even make sense to Buffy and Angel. Because it just is.

Sure.

From a non-B/A shipper POV like mine, the show since S1 has made it clear that these two are drawn to each other. Despite everything. Despite what they are (slayer/vampire, human/immortal), despite what her friends said, despite their reservations, despite logic and reason, despite them trying to walk away from each other every year, despite the curse and despite the doomed nature of their relationship. As long as they were in each others worlds that was not going to change. Which is why Angel leaving town was the only way out.

I agree with that. I just think the story would have been MUCH stronger if Angel decided to leave immediately after 'Lovers Walk', or after 'Amends'... It would have made more room for Fuffy goodness in season 3, too!😛

So this is my last attempt @Guy to try and make sense of this for you 🙂 Ok here's the transcript from Lovers Walk from that scene::

ANGEL
I wondered when you were coming.

BUFFY
I'm not coming back.


He takes this in. Maybe it's not a total shock, but it still feels like a body blow.


BUFFY
We're not friends. Never were. I
can fool Giles, I can fool my
friends, but I can't fool myself. Or
Spike, for some reason. What I want
from you, I can never have. You
don't need me to take care of you any
more, so I'm gonna go.


ANGEL
I don't accept that.


BUFFY
You have to.


ANGEL
There must be some way we can still
see each other.


BUFFY
There is. Just tell me you don't love me.


He is silent. After a long beat, she leaves. He lets her.

Now the next time they are Even seen talking to each other is Amends. Here's the first scene


Angel makes his way through the throng, walking off nightmares. He does not make eye contact with people, so it's no surprise that he almost physically bumps into Buffy.

She is laden down with packages, and stops cold to see him.



BUFFY
Oh!

ANGEL
Hi.

BUFFY
Hi.


A beat.


BUFFY
So, are you... shopping? You're
probably not shopping.


ANGEL
Couldn't sleep.

BUFFY
Vampires probably not that big on
Christmas, now I'm thinking about
it...

ANGEL
Not as a rule.


Another beat.


BUFFY
But you're doing okay.

L
ANGEL
I'm all right. You?




BUFFY
Yeah! I'm good. Just, uh, getting
some presents for the gang. I
should probably hurry, I gotta get
to the magic shop... Angel?


He's not looking at her any more. He's staring off at something else. Something bad.

ANGLE: ANGEL'S POV

Standing in the middle of the crowd is Daniel. He stands stock still as everything around him moves in slow motion.

Still in the clothes he died in. Staring at us.

A moment more, and he moves off.



BUFFY
Angel?


She looks to see what he saw, but there is nothing. Turns back to him.


BUFFY
What is it?


Angel cannot reply.

Ok so I posted this scene because you can tell it's the first time they have seen each other since she "dumped" him. Something is very clearly wrong with Angel, and since she still loves him, she's worried. This whole episode she is sharing dreams with him, and trying to help him with what's haunting him. Their connection here is very strong. The whole point of this episode is people trying to make Amends with each other. Willow and Oz, Faith and Buffy, Giles and Angel, and finally Angel and Buffy. There whole last scene with
Them on the hill is them FINALLY having it out about season 2, and Buffy literally pulling him back from the brInk of despair and letting him know she still loves him.

ANGEL
(bitterly)
Am I a thing worth saving? Am I a
righteous man? The world wants
me gone.


Weakness overcomes her, tears finally spilling out as she implores:


BUFFY
What about me? What about -
Angel I love you so much --
(sobbing)
-- and I've tried to make you go
away, I killed you and it didn't
help...


She pulls away from him and stands, anger surfacing through her tears.


BUFFY
And I hate it. I hate that it's so
hard... that you can hurt me so
much... I know everything you've
done because you did it to me. I
wish I wished you dead. But I don't.
I can't.


He is also crying, wanting so badly to take comfort in her words...



ANGEL
Buffy, please... just this once...
let me be strong.




BUFFY
Strong is fighting. It's hard and
it's painful and it's every day.
It's what we have to do and we can do
it together, but if you're too much
of a coward for that then burn.




ANGEL
Buffy --




BUFFY
Let the sun kill you! If I can't
convince you you have a place in the
world, then I don't know what will.
So die. But don't expect me to
watch, and don't expect me to mourn
for you, 'cause, I don't have... I...


They've started about halfway through her speech. Light, just a few flakes at first, but by the time she stops they are all around. She looks about her. So does Angel. They look up at the sky, almost unable to comprehend the fact that it's snowing.

Slowly, they turn to look out on the town. The camera moves past them and arms up toward the vista. A thick and silent snow falls over the whole of Sunnydale.

I gotta say - you're not doing yourself any favors by bringing 'Amends' into this. 😉Have I mentioned that I hate 'Amends'? (Well, I hate the ending of it, which is the part that you quoted)

Super dramatic yes lol. But clearly this scene shows that no matter what she said in Lovers Walk, it's not over for her. It's very plain that no matter how she tries to move on , she CANT.

I agree so far.

THis whole episode can be considered their reconciliation...after this they are officially together again.

They are? 😕

This scene shows that they still love each other (which was never in question, really), but where does it say that they're together again? Where does it say that Buffy changed her mind about what she said in 'Lovers Walk'? Everything she said then is still true. They still can't be together. Angel's suicidal tendencies mean that Buffy cancels her "no seeing each other" policy, but that doesn't mean that Buffy now wants to live her life with Angel. She just doesn't want him to kill himself.

Also, they go through a lot together after this. She almost dies in Earshot and he saves her, she trusts him in Bad Girls with the amulet and then to help Faith in consequences. then he pretends to be evil in Enemies, she takes a break, and by Choices they are once again firmly back together. Earshot brings them even closer Actually.

So yes, that's why is so devastating in the Prom when he actually ends it. Cause this time he is leaving town, and this time it Is HIM that has comes to terms with them having to be apart. And she's blindsided by it. One moment they are fine she thinks, and the next he's making this extreme decision to leave. And hes not giving her a choice or leaving any room for them to reconcile.

See, that just raises more questions for me. First of all, since they didn't become couple-y in 'Amends' (they really didn't), then when DID they become a couple again? Or was it just a gradual thing?

Anyway - I love you for writing this! 🙂 But it still doesn't touch on my main problems with 'The Prom':

1) Buffy already KNEW that she and Angel can't be together, and already decided to put an end to it, before the second half of the season brought them together again. Getting together again was a character-regression. I get that they got together because of their all-encompassing love, and that you can't explain love, but it just doesn't matter - When the show made a whole arc about Buffy accepting the end of her relationship with Angel in season 2, and when we also had an entire episode ('Lovers Walk') showing that Buffy and Angel can't remain friends and culminating with Buffy leaving Angel, then getting back together after that is just clearly a regression. Buffy's extreme reaction to the break-up in 'The Prom' was simply the most obvious showcase of that regression, which is why it's so annoying to me.

2) If breaking up was so hard... Then how the hell did Angel do it when Buffy couldn't? Especially given that Angel couldn't even accept Buffy's "we can't be together" decision from 3x08? When did Angel become so much more logical then Buffy all of a sudden? If anything, Buffy shouldn't have been the one to break up in 3x20.

*Sigh*... That second part will probably remain a mystery to me forever, since I can never really understand what goes on in Angel's head...

www.elftown.com/_Avengers%3A%20Pictures%20Galore%204

We'd probably have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[GraceK]

Again - You can't choose who you love, but you can choose what to do about it. And if being with Angel is wrong, and if Buffy decided NOT to be with him in 3x08, and then decided to be with him in 3x20, then that's regression. And it has nothing to do with emotions - as you said, Buffy loved Angel in 3x08 too. The only difference is that in 3x08 she did the logical thing, and in 3x20 she did the emotional thing. And that change annoyed me. It's one of the very few times in which Buffy felt whiny to me...



Sure.



I agree with that. I just think the story would have been MUCH stronger if Angel decided to leave immediately after 'Lovers Walk', or after 'Amends'... It would have made more room for Fuffy goodness in season 3, too!😛



I gotta say - you're not doing yourself any favors by bringing 'Amends' into this. 😉Have I mentioned that I hate 'Amends'? (Well, I hate the ending of it, which is the part that you quoted)



I agree so far.



They are? 😕

This scene shows that they still love each other (which was never in question, really), but where does it say that they're together again? Where does it say that Buffy changed her mind about what she said in 'Lovers Walk'? Everything she said then is still true. They still can't be together. Angel's suicidal tendencies mean that Buffy cancels her "no seeing each other" policy, but that doesn't mean that Buffy now wants to live her life with Angel. She just doesn't want him to kill himself.



See, that just raises more questions for me. First of all, since they didn't become couple-y in 'Amends' (they really didn't), then when DID they become a couple again? Or was it just a gradual thing?

Anyway - I love you for writing this! 🙂 But it still doesn't touch on my main problems with 'The Prom':

1) Buffy already KNEW that she and Angel can't be together, and already decided to put an end to it, before the second half of the season brought them together again. Getting together again was a character-regression. I get that they got together because of their all-encompassing love, and that you can't explain love, but it just doesn't matter - When the show made a whole arc about Buffy accepting the end of her relationship with Angel in season 2, and when we also had an entire episode ('Lovers Walk') showing that Buffy and Angel can't remain friends and culminating with Buffy leaving Angel, then getting back together after that is just clearly a regression. Buffy's extreme reaction to the break-up in 'The Prom' was simply the most obvious showcase of that regression, which is why it's so annoying to me.

2) If breaking up was so hard... Then how the hell did Angel do it when Buffy couldn't? Especially given that Angel couldn't even accept Buffy's "we can't be together" decision from 3x08? When did Angel become so much more logical then Buffy all of a sudden? If anything, Buffy shouldn't have been the one to break up in 3x20.

*Sigh*... That second part will probably remain a mystery to me forever, since I can never really understand what goes on in Angel's head...

We'd probably have to agree to disagree on this.

Sounds good. Interesting perspective though even if I don't agree.

I guess the most logical answer would be plot. They needed be together again so it hurts when Angel leaves and gets his own show 🙂 drama!!!!

 

[Guy]

Sounds good. Interesting perspective though even if I don't agree.

www.reading-rambo.com/2014/01/2013-wrap-up-books.html

I guess the most logical answer would be plot. They needed be together again so it hurts when Angel leaves and gets his own show 🙂 drama!!!!

See, that's why Angel should have been resurrected later. You resurrect him around 3x10, and then you can hit all the same major story beats again, but without dumbing down Buffy and without repeat-breakups. And the spare time is used to flesh out Faith and the Mayor. Win-win!🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

Again - You can't choose who you love, but you can choose what to do about it. And if being with Angel is wrong, and if Buffy decided NOT to be with him in 3x08, and then decided to be with him in 3x20, then that's regression. And it has nothing to do with emotions - as you said, Buffy loved Angel in 3x08 too. The only difference is that in 3x08 she did the logical thing, and in 3x20 she did the emotional thing. And that change annoyed me. It's one of the very few times in which Buffy felt whiny to me...

And Buffy had made the choice to walk away. Both before 3.07/3.08 and as @GraceK mentioned Amends, she literally killed him already to make him go away. But this is also the same episode where the First with it's machinations literally forces them into each others orbits again. Because like with Angel's dialogue in IWRY, so long as they are apart physically it's easier. But as long as he stays in Sunnydale something will always push them together. And they end up drawn to each other again.

1) Buffy already KNEW that she and Angel can't be together, and already decided to put an end to it, before the second half of the season brought them together again. Getting together again was a character-regression. I get that they got together because of their all-encompassing love, and that you can't explain love, but it just doesn't matter - When the show made a whole arc about Buffy accepting the end of her relationship with Angel in season 2, and when we also had an entire episode ('Lovers Walk') showing that Buffy and Angel can't remain friends and culminating with Buffy leaving Angel, then getting back together after that is just clearly a regression. Buffy's extreme reaction to the break-up in 'The Prom' was simply the most obvious showcase of that regression, which is why it's so annoying to me.

Not the get into ship wars but Spuffy was not also major regression? The whole Spuffy arc could have been done in 3 episodes in S6 but they had to drag it out in a lather/rinse/repeat fashion. This was with Buffy fulling knowing what Spike was and what a relationship with a vampire amounts to. And I won't even mention how much S7 regresses Buffy even further. IMO you can't harp on or be against one but love the other. If Buffy regressing in a romantic relationship is something you hate, then you have to hate it no matter who the partner is. In the case of S3 something constantly got in the way of Buffy moving on with Angel coming back from hell and then the First meddling.

2) If breaking up was so hard... Then how the hell did Angel do it when Buffy couldn't? Especially given that Angel couldn't even accept Buffy's "we can't be together" decision from 3x08? When did Angel become so much more logical then Buffy all of a sudden? If anything, Buffy shouldn't have been the one to break up in 3x20.

Because Angel used his head instead of his heart. He even said that. It's not that he doesn't love her. It's just that the odds are so stacked against them that there is nowhere to go. And in that episode he even had Buffy's mom come to him and tell him to get lost. Angel had nothing in Sunnydale and Buffy had a bright future ahead of her. That's where that whole 'leaving for her own good' comes from. Aside from Willow none of the Scoobies liked him, things were strained with Giles, Buffy's mom comes to intervene. Then the relationship itself with all the complications it comes. Angel loves Buffy enough to be willing to let her go to find a better life and life partner.

 

[Guy]

And Buffy had made the choice to walk away. Both before 3.07/3.08 and as @GraceK mentioned Amends, she literally killed him already to make him go away. But this is also the same episode where the First with it's machinations literally forces them into each others orbits again. Because like with Angel's dialogue in IWRY, so long as they are apart physically it's easier. But as long as he stays in Sunnydale something will always push them together. And they end up drawn to each other again.

Sure, the relationship had to end with one of them leaving town. I just think that could have easily happened immediately after 'Lovers Walk', with Buffy as the instigator, instead of being dragged out all the way to 3x20. That would have been a more engaging story, and it would have been much better for Buffy's arc.

Not the get into ship wars but Spuffy was not also major regression? The whole Spuffy arc could have been done in 3 episodes in S6 but they had to drag it out in a lather/rinse/repeat fashion. This was with Buffy fulling knowing what Spike was and what a relationship with a vampire amounts to. And I won't even mention how much S7 regresses Buffy even further. IMO you can't harp on or be against one but love the other. If Buffy regressing in a romantic relationship is something you hate, then you have to hate it no matter who the partner is. In the case of S3 something constantly got in the way of Buffy moving on with Angel coming back from hell and then the First meddling.

Well, no, I don't think that there was any character-regression there. But that's a question for a different thread. (plus, I seriously doubt that we would ever agree about it, and I'm honestly tired of Spuffy debates in the BuffyBoards...)

Because Angel used his head instead of his heart. He even said that. It's not that he doesn't love her. It's just that the odds are so stacked against them that there is nowhere to go. And in that episode he even had Buffy's mom come to him and tell him to get lost. Angel had nothing in Sunnydale and Buffy had a bright future ahead of her. That's where that whole 'leaving for her own good' comes from. Aside from Willow none of the Scoobies liked him, things were strained with Giles, Buffy's mom comes to intervene. Then the relationship itself with all the complications it comes. Angel loves Buffy enough to be willing to let her go to find a better life and life partner.

Well, then why didn't Angel do it way back in 3x08? All of these circumstances were there back then, too.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Sure, the relationship had to end with one of them leaving town. I just think that could have easily happened immediately after 'Lovers Walk', with Buffy as the instigator, instead of being dragged out all the way to 3x20. That would have been a more engaging story, and it would have been much better for Buffy's arc.

Amends was supposed to be Angel's exit episode. That's why there is the sudden regression as you call it. AtS was supposed to be a mid-Season replacement so B/A would have been done in that episode. It's no different than what happened to Cordy. The writers had to come up with a way to keep both characters in the story so B/A was dragged out and Cordy reverted to S1 Cordy.

Well, no, I don't think that there was any character-regression there. But that's a question for a different thread. (plus, I seriously doubt that we would ever agree about it, and I'm honestly tired of Spuffy debates in the BuffyBoards...)

In both cases Buffy needed a strong man in order for the break. That's what is so sad about it. Buffy was the weaker one (or more emotional) so Angel had to be the one to do it. In S6 Buffy needed Riley in order to remind her that she wasn't the worthless woman Spike made her out to be. So nothing had changed really. But yeah, lets not get into it further.

Well, then why didn't Angel do it way back in 3x08? All of these circumstances were there back then, too.

I give Angel slack here. The guy had just taken a 100 year cruise to hell and physically was still not in top shape. I give him some time to get his head straight, as I would anyone in that situation.

 

[Guy]

Amends was supposed to be Angel's exit episode. That's why there is the sudden regression as you call it. AtS was supposed to be a mid-Season replacement so B/A would have been done in that episode. It's no different than what happened to Cordy. The writers had to come up with a way to keep both characters in the story so B/A was dragged out and Cordy reverted to S1 Cordy.

Really? Damn, now I'm so bummed that they didn't end up doing this! It makes so much sense...

In both cases Buffy needed a strong man in order for the break. That's what is so sad about it. Buffy was the weaker one (or more emotional) so Angel had to be the one to do it. In S6 Buffy needed Riley in order to remind her that she wasn't the worthless woman Spike made her out to be. So nothing had changed really. But yeah, lets not get into it further.

1) Buffy didn't need "a strong man" to break up with Angel in 3x08. She did need it in 3x20, but that's the part that felt completely out-of-character to me...
2) Buffy didn't need Riley as "a strong man", she just needed someone from her past, as a reminder of who she used to be. Hence - 'As You Were'.
3) Even if what you said about "Buffy always needs a strong man" is true (which, in my opinion it's not)... How is that regression? Character-regression means that a character forgets a lesson that he/she learned in the past. If Buffy needed "a strong man" in both season 3 and season 6, then that's not a regression - it's just a consistent character trait.

I give Angel slack here. The guy had just taken a 100 year cruise to hell and physically was still not in top shape. I give him some time to get his head straight, as I would anyone in that situation.

I'm not blaming him, I was just wondering what went on in his head. It's interesting, though - if Angel would have gotten a spin-off immediately after 'Amends', then that means that he would have left Sunnydale immediately too... Would that have been in-character for him?

 

[BuffyBot22]

Interesting... I have a question: Do you think that Buffy made the right decision by wanting to be with Angel in a long-term relationship in season 3? Or do you think that Angel was right when he ended it? I mean, it has to be one or the other, they can't both be right. I always felt that the narrative was clear about the fact that their relationship was a bad idea, and that Buffy was wrong to want it. Based on that, I always saw Buffy's desire to be with Angel in 3x20 as regression - in 3x08 she knew to stay away from him, which was right, and in 3x20 she regressed by wanting to be with him. But if you think that Buffy was right to be with him, then it would obviously look different to you...

I don't think it has to be one or the other. She loved him. He loved her. Even though Angel is immortal and will never grow old as Buffy will grow older she still has an expiration date. So they could just enjoy the moment and be happy and worry about the growing old part and consequences later. That's one way to look at it, which is how I think they were both trying to view it, until the Mayor told Angel "What kind of life can you offer her?" and then Joyce told him that he needed to make the hard decision here and let her go.
This leads to option 2: Angel is right in letting her go so maybe she can find somewhat of a normal life since she obviously longs for that even though her life will never be truly normal, which she mentions this to him in The Prom. He loved her enough to let her go, so maybe she could try to find normalcy and try to be happy.
But, are either of these options right? No, not really. They both have good and bad, pros and cons.

Regarding the regression statement, again it was emotions. It was never really over for Buffy or for Angel. If they would not have gotten back together for real in season 3 after him being in hell, it would have been a disservice to their story. They needed to try it again now that they knew all of the consequences. I mean they were telling each other they loved each other and then she had to stick a sword through his heart and send him to hell. There was story to be told there since the writers brought him back (btw it would have been entirely more brave if the writers would have left him dead, but oh well.)
You seem to see Buffy as weak in The Prom. I just see a girl who got her heartbroken because it is really over this time, just like she thought it was really over in Becoming which is why she broke down and then went MIA for 3 months. I love that Buffy is a strong kickass woman, but I also love that she is vulnerable and relatable. Because IRL when someone you love breaks your heart it can feel like you are dying like she says in The Prom.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Really? Damn, now I'm so bummed that they didn't end up doing this! It makes so much sense...

It's still available on old forums (lost all my links when my old computer crashed). Interviews DB gave where he talked about AtS being a mid-Season replacement which he had to take back later when the network changed the plan. But both Angel and Cordy are pretty much in limbo post mid-season with no story for them except going back to basics because they had already planned for them to be off the show.

1) Buffy didn't need "a strong man" to break up with Angel in 3x08. She did need it in 3x20, but that's the part that felt completely out-of-character to me...

I don't know. Buffy was young and in love so I cut her some slack when she waffles around. I mean 3.20 is also the episode were they show us a notebook of Buffy's where she had scribbled 'Buffy&Angel 4ever' on it to really drive home how young Buffy is. Talk about absolutely OOC for Buffy.

2) Buffy didn't need Riley as "a strong man", she just needed someone from her past, as a reminder of who she used to be. Hence - 'As You Were'.

Buffy should have known, on her own, that she wasn't worthless scum. To have a guy come by (ex-boyfriend no less) who has to remind her sure isn't character progression to me. Especially since...

3) Even if what you said about "Buffy always needs a strong man" is true (which, in my opinion it's not)... How is that regression? Character-regression means that a character forgets a lesson that he/she learned in the past. If Buffy needed "a strong man" in both season 3 and season 6, then that's not a regression - it's just a consistent character trait.

Buffy has already had her 'cookie dough' speech in S5. So many people forget that. She had already reached the point where she was ok with being alone/single and didn't necessarily need a man in her life. And in S6 she needed 2. Buffy had the character progression in S5 already, it was undone in S6 and S7 and then out of nowhere she comes back to S5 progression by the end of S7.

I'm not blaming him, I was just wondering what went on in his head

Getting Angel's POV on BtVS? Surely you jest.

 

[Guy]

I don't think it has to be one or the other. She loved him. He loved her. Even though Angel is immortal and will never grow old as Buffy will grow older she still has an expiration date. So they could just enjoy the moment and be happy and worry about the growing old part and consequences later. That's one way to look at it, which is how I think they were both trying to view it, until the Mayor told Angel "What kind of life can you offer her?" and then Joyce told him that he needed to make the hard decision here and let her go.
This leads to option 2: Angel is right in letting her go so maybe she can find somewhat of a normal life since she obviously longs for that even though her life will never be truly normal, which she mentions this to him in The Prom. He loved her enough to let her go, so maybe she could try to find normalcy and try to be happy.
But, are either of these options right? No, not really. They both have good and bad, pros and cons.

That's an interesting perspective, even if I don't really agree. Thanks!

Regarding the regression statement, again it was emotions. It was never really over for Buffy or for Angel. If they would not have gotten back together for real in season 3 after him being in hell, it would have been a disservice to their story. They needed to try it again now that they knew all of the consequences. I mean they were telling each other they loved each other and then she had to stick a sword through his heart and send him to hell. There was story to be told there since the writers brought him back (btw it would have been entirely more brave if the writers would have left him dead, but oh well.)
You seem to see Buffy as weak in The Prom. I just see a girl who got her heartbroken because it is really over this time, just like she thought it was really over in Becoming which is why she broke down and then went MIA for 3 months. I love that Buffy is a strong kickass woman, but I also love that she is vulnerable and relatable. Because IRL when someone you love breaks your heart it can feel like you are dying like she says in The Prom.

I love Buffy's vulnerabilities too! I have no interest in perfect characters. My problem isn't in the fact that Buffy was sad over a break-up - my problem is with how it fit into her overall story. In my opinion, the way it was handled was a disservice to her arc. But that's just me.

And I would have LOVED it if Angel never came back 🙂
It's not like he was ever in a better storyline than the Angelus arc of season 2... It was all downhill from there.

It's still available on old forums (lost all my links when my old computer crashed). Interviews DB gave where he talked about AtS being a mid-Season replacement which he had to take back later when the network changed the plan. But both Angel and Cordy are pretty much in limbo post mid-season with no story for them except going back to basics because they had already planned for them to be off the show.

Yeah, that makes so much sense! I can't believe I never heard that... That explains why Cordy and Angel felt so out-of-place (story-wise) in the second half of season 3...

I don't know. Buffy was young and in love so I cut her some slack when she waffles around. I mean 3.20 is also the episode were they show us a notebook of Buffy's where she had scribbled 'Buffy&Angel 4ever' on it to really drive home how young Buffy is. Talk about absolutely OOC for Buffy.

The notebook also felt wrong to me... It would have fit in season 1, maybe, but by season 3 Buffy was just not the same person anymore.

Buffy should have known, on her own, that she wasn't worthless scum. To have a guy come by (ex-boyfriend no less) who has to remind her sure isn't character progression to me. Especially since...


Buffy has already had her 'cookie dough' speech in S5. So many people forget that. She had already reached the point where she was ok with being alone/single and didn't necessarily need a man in her life. And in S6 she needed 2. Buffy had the character progression in S5 already, it was undone in S6 and S7 and then out of nowhere she comes back to S5 progression by the end of S7.

So... You're saying that in 5x15, Buffy's lesson was that she shouldn't need men, and therefore whenever men helped her in seasons 6 & 7, that was character-regression? I really don't see it the same way.

1) If the lesson was that Buffy shouldn't ever need men, then that's a bad lesson, and it's good that Buffy didn't stick with it. After all, we all need help sometimes, and sometimes that help comes from men, and there's nothing wrong with that.

2) Of course, I don't think that that is what that lesson was. I think that 5x15 was simply about Buffy learning that she shouldn't be desperate for a romantic relationship, she shouldn't let a romantic relationship be her source of meaning. And she never regressed from that - Buffy was never desperate for Spike in season 6, quite the contrary. She constantly said that what they have is not a relationship, that it's just "convenient". That's a far cry from her attempts to woo Ben in 5x15.
And 'As you Were' has nothing to do with Buffy's lesson from 5x15. The writers made sure to NOT present Riley as a romantic interest - he came back MARRIED. He was only there to remind Buffy of her old self. How does that Contradict Buffy's lesson from 5x15, which was specifically about not needing relationships to define her? If Buffy got out of her depression by getting back together with Riley, then you would have had a point, but that's not even close to what happened. And it's not like Buffy's relationship with Spike was the cure to her depression, either - in fact, it made it worse in a lot of ways. So, no, I don't see regression there.

Getting Angel's POV on BtVS? Surely you jest.

Hey, stranger things have happened...😉

 

[RomanticSoul]

And I would have LOVED it if Angel never came back 🙂 It's not like he was ever in a better storyline than the Angelus arc of season 2... It was all downhill from there.

Well sure, if they hadn't already decided on the spin-off they probably would have left him in hell for the time being. But I'm glad since I prefer the Beige Angel arc over anything Angelus. I don't care about the darkness in the demon (because that's what they are). The darkness in Angel (the man) is much more interesting.

So... You're saying that in 5x15, Buffy's lesson was that she shouldn't need men, and therefore whenever men helped her in seasons 6 & 7, that was character-regression? I really don't see it the same way.

1) If the lesson was that Buffy shouldn't ever need men, then that's a bad lesson, and it's good that Buffy didn't stick with it. After all, we all need help sometimes, and sometimes that help comes from men, and there's nothing wrong with that.

2) Of course, I don't think that that is what that lesson was. I think that 5x15 was simply about Buffy learning that she shouldn't be desperate for a romantic relationship, she shouldn't let a romantic relationship be her source of meaning. And she never regressed from that - Buffy was never desperate for Spike in season 6, quite the contrary. She constantly said that what they have is not a relationship, that it's just "convenient". That's a far cry from her attempts to woo Ben in 5x15.
And 'As you Were' has nothing to do with Buffy's lesson from 5x15. The writers made sure to NOT present Riley as a romantic interest - he came back MARRIED. He was only there to remind Buffy of her old self. How does that Contradict Buffy's lesson from 5x15, which was specifically about not needing relationships to define her? If Buffy got out of her depression by getting back together with Riley, then you would have had a point, but that's not even close to what happened. And it's not like Buffy's relationship with Spike was the cure to her depression, either - in fact, it made it worse in a lot of ways. So, no, I don't see regression there.

It's not about whether she is in romantic relationships. Not to me. But Buffy's sense of self-worth was too tied up in the opinion, especially men. Whether that's Angel in Forever, Spike and Riley in S6 and then again Spike in S7. Buffy has done a hell of a lot for Sunnydale and it's people, not to mention the world. She is anything but worthless. She has a strength that most mere mortals don't. But she is so focused on the bad in the later years (large to maintain her martyrdom) that she can't see anything good when it comes to herself. And the men constantly have to remind her. Which wouldn't have happened if she had progressed further with her 'I don't need a relationship or men' epiphany. She uses Spike both in S6 and 7 just to get through the day and in S7 it develops into an unhealthy co-dependency. And at the end of S7 she comes to the same realization she did 2 years prior. That's not progression IMO.

 

[Guy]

Well sure, if they hadn't already decided on the spin-off they probably would have left him in hell for the time being. But I'm glad since I prefer the Beige Angel arc over anything Angelus. I don't care about the darkness in the demon (because that's what they are). The darkness in Angel (the man) is much more interesting.

Well, I'm not crazy about the "beige Angel" arc. I think that 'Reunion' and 'Reprise' are masterpieces, but the rest of the arc is iffy for me. I'm not a fan of Darla (Julie Benz simply can't make me believe that she's a badass immortal), and much of the arc is just really... Cliched, to me. Plus, 'Epiphany' wraps up the arc in a pretty anti-climactic way, IMO. I still think that the Angelus arc is the best Angel story ever - not because Angelus is a compelling character, but because he was such a terrific antagonist for Buffy. Just my 2 cents.

It's not about whether she is in romantic relationships. Not to me. But Buffy's sense of self-worth was too tied up in the opinion, especially men. Whether that's Angel in Forever, Spike and Riley in S6 and then again Spike in S7. Buffy has done a hell of a lot for Sunnydale and it's people, not to mention the world. She is anything but worthless. She has a strength that most mere mortals don't. But she is so focused on the bad in the later years (large to maintain her martyrdom) that she can't see anything good when it comes to herself. And the men constantly have to remind her. Which wouldn't have happened if she had progressed further with her 'I don't need a relationship or men' epiphany. She uses Spike both in S6 and 7 just to get through the day and in S7 it develops into an unhealthy co-dependency. And at the end of S7 she comes to the same realization she did 2 years prior. That's not progression IMO.

I have several issues with this analysis...

1) It's not a "Buffy and men" issue, it's a "Buffy and people" issue - and it's not even an issue, really. Sure, Angel gets her spirits up in 'Forever', and Riley gets her spirit up in 'As You Were', etc... But Willow also gets her spirit up in ''Weight of the World', and Dawn stops her from killing herself in 'Bargaining', and Tara gets her spirit up in 'Dead Things', and Fake!Joyce gets her spirit up in 'Normal Again', etc... Which, really, is not that special to Buffy. EVERYONE needs encouragement every once in a while, when they're down. Angel, for example, also needed such pep talks often - from Cordelia, from Lorne, from Wesley, etc. It's not a matter of "Buffy has no self-worth outside of the men in her life", it's simply a matter of people needing reassurance when they're down. And in seasons 6 & 7, this happens more often, because Buffy is down more often in those seasons (and for good reason - Buffy went through many traumatic experiences in those years. The deaths of several loved ones, her own death, endless fighting, betrayals... Who could go through so much pain and NOT feel like crap?).

2) Again, this has nothing to do with her 'epiphany' from 5x15. I think that episode was simpler and smaller than you make it out to be - it was simply about Buffy deciding that she doesn't want to pursue relationships obsessively, the way April did. And Buffy's relationship with Spike was NOT a case of Buffy being obsessive about a relationship - quite the contrary ("You're just... Convenient". Spike was an escape, not an obsession). And of course, 5x15 never said anything about Buffy not needing pep talks every once in a while. Hell - Buffy made her "I don't need a guy right now" speech WHILE GETTING A PEP TALK FROM A GUY (Xander: "Well, I'll say this - she's a pretty cool person to be alone with").

 

[Mylie]

ok so this is off-topic (and I apologize for that) but I keep seeing the terms «beige Angel arc» and I have no idea what it refers to. By reading it a couple of times, I got to understand that it's about his season 2 arc, but why is it called beige? I don't get it... Maybe it's just me and my bad english but I really don't see the link between that word and the actual arc. If someone could explain to me where it comes from/what it means, I'd appreciate it. 🙂

 

[Priceless]

ok so this is off-topic (and I apologize for that) but I keep seeing the terms «beige Angel arc» and I have no idea what it refers to. By reading it a couple of times, I got to understand that it's about his season 2 arc, but why is it called beige? I don't get it... Maybe it's just me and my bad english but I really don't see the link between that word and the actual arc. If someone could explain to me where it comes from/what it means, I'd appreciate it. 🙂

Lorne calls Angel's aura beige, though I can't remember in which episode. I think it refers to Angel not being a total 'white-hat' good guy anymore once the Darla arc starts. Angel is no longer totally good, but isn't evil either, so he's beige 🙂

 

[Cordeliagirl]

They shouldnt have Xander and Williow cheating with each other on cordy and oz.

 

[Out for a walk]

This episode showed how well Spike interacts with the Scooby gang. I think it definitely cemented his history for the later seasons.


I love the scene with Spike and Joyce talking in the kitchen. I crack up every time when he is behind her...pretending to bite her in front of Angel. 😀 "You're a very bad man"

 

[DeadlyDuo]

ok so this is off-topic (and I apologize for that) but I keep seeing the terms «beige Angel arc» and I have no idea what it refers to. By reading it a couple of times, I got to understand that it's about his season 2 arc, but why is it called beige? I don't get it... Maybe it's just me and my bad english but I really don't see the link between that word and the actual arc. If someone could explain to me where it comes from/what it means, I'd appreciate it. 🙂

I always assumed that it meant that BtVS Angel was quite dull in comparison to Angelus. Beige is a dull colour therefore you get Beige Angel, Angelus and AtS Angel

This episode showed how well Spike interacts with the Scooby gang. I think it definitely cemented his history for the later seasons.


I love the scene with Spike and Joyce talking in the kitchen. I crack up every time when he is behind her...pretending to bite her in front of Angel. 😀 "You're a very bad man"

Made by this boards very own @Xanderectomy that scene, chipmunk style.

 

[Out for a walk]

I always assumed that it meant that BtVS Angel was quite dull in comparison to Angelus. Beige is a dull colour therefore you get Beige Angel, Angelus and AtS Angel



Made by this boards very own @Xanderectomy that scene, chipmunk style.

Haha. That is so funny.

 

[Mylie]

I always assumed that it meant that BtVS Angel was quite dull in comparison to Angelus. Beige is a dull colour therefore you get Beige Angel, Angelus and AtS Angel

Beige Angel refers to season 2 Angel of AtS, not BtVS.