Discussion of 3.08 "Lover's Walk" - Aired 11/24/1998 (WB-US)

[WillowFromBuffy]

I've actually wondered how Spike ended up with Joyce instead of at the library, but I actually think it makes sense that Willow would send him there, hoping he would run into Buffy.

What other choice did she have? "I do the spell, and he kills us. I refuse to do the spell, and he kills us? He falls asleep and forgets us, and we starve to death." If Buffy never learned that Spike was in town, she might never think to look at the factory.

 

[thetopher]

It makes obvious sense. Send Spike to the slayer and of course she is lying.

Send Spike to Buffy's house when Willow is not sure that Buffy is even there (patrolling? training? visiting Angel?) and that Joyce most certainly would be? Also I'm not sure why Spike would fall for something so obvious (even whilst drunk). What, just walk into the house and be attacked by Buffy or something?
I'm asking for actual proof before we assume and call Willow reckless for risking Joyce's life.
I'm willing to admit its possible, if there is actual proof in the script/episode.

 

[thetopher]

"I do the spell, and he kills us. I refuse to do the spell, and he kills us? He falls asleep and forgets us, and we starve to death."

Right, but wouldn't Willow like, mention this plan to Xander when he wakes up? 'I sent Spike to Buffy's in hopes of..?' But she doesn't, she outlines the three hopeless options that she's thought about, none of which mention Buffy.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Willow didn't send Spike to Joyce, Spike went there all on his own. She sent him to the Magic Box to get ingredients for the spell but he meandered.

Willow said she needed a spell book because the one she had wasn't it. She said she'd left it somewhere. Spike asks "where?" and the next time we see him, he turns up at Buffy's house. It's obvious that's where Willow told him it was.

 

[Btvs fan]

Send Spike to Buffy's house when Willow is not sure that Buffy is even there (patrolling? training? visiting Angel?) and that Joyce most certainly would be? Also I'm not sure why Spike would fall for something so obvious (even whilst drunk). What, just walk into the house and be attacked by Buffy or something?
I'm asking for actual proof before we assume and call Willow reckless for risking Joyce's life.
I'm willing to admit its possible, if there is actual proof in the script/episode.

Here's the script for you then

Lovers Walk Script

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Right, but wouldn't Willow like, mention this plan to Xander when he wakes up? 'I sent Spike to Buffy's in hopes of..?' But she doesn't, she outlines the three hopeless options that she's thought about, none of which mention Buffy.

Well, it's hardly a water tight plan.

Even if we never see Willow explain her plan, DD makes a good point about how the scene cuts after Spike asks the question. If Willow is honest, why does she say she left it somewhere? It would be much easier to say, 'I dropped it when you abducted me, dofus!' And otherwise it would be a little odd, if not inconceivable, for Spike to end up at Buffy's house. Did he make a conscious decision to go there or did he get lost? If it is the former, then why?

As for risking Joyce's life, Spike is going to kill someone. He is a vampire, after all. Sending Spike to where he is likely to run into Buffy seems like the best course of action. If Buffy stakes him, Spike will kill no one ever again. If Willow lets Spike kill her and Xander, then Spike could just decide to go kill Joyce as a way of getting back at Buffy. Or he would go to Brazil and slaughter thousands of Brazilians with Dru.

 

[thetopher]

Here's the script for you then

Yeah, the script never says anything. There isn't any proof one way or the other.

Even if we never see Willow explain her plan, DD makes a good point about how the scene cuts after Spike asks the question. If Willow is honest, why does she say she left it somewhere? It would be much easier to say, 'I dropped it when you abducted me, dofus!'

I just figured Willow was being terrorized by Spike and didn't say 'its at the school where I was casting a spell on me and Xander', which would be the truth. Willow doesn't want to blame the unstable psychotic vampire for anything.

And otherwise it would be a little odd, if not inconceivable, for Spike to end up at Buffy's house. Did he make a conscious decision to go there or did he get lost? If it is the former, then why?

I've already said that Spike happening upon Joyce on his own suits his current psychology quite well; drunk, heartbroken and nostalgic Spike goes looking for comfort. He remembers that Joyce was 'nice' and non-judgmental and so, seeing her through the window, re-introduces himself and then pours his heart out to a sympathetic ear.

I dunno, I just don't want to blame Willow if I don't have to. My assumption/explanation makes Spike seem less dumb and more human. shrug

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I've already said that Spike happening upon Joyce on his own suits his current psychology quite well; drunk, heartbroken and nostalgic Spike goes looking for comfort. He remembers that Joyce was 'nice' and non-judgmental and so, seeing her through the window, re-introduces himself and then pours his heart out to a sympathetic ear.

None of this sound very convening. She was civil with him in "Becoming" but nothing more. It seems too convenient that he would happen by Buffy's house on his way to town and decide to drop by for a chat. Not impossible, but unlikely.

I dunno, I just don't want to blame Willow if I don't have to.

It's hardly Willow's fault if Spike kills someone. It would have been tragic if Spike had killed Joyce, and I am sure Willow would have felt awful, but sending Spike towards Buffy was probably the best idea she had to minimise damage.

Spike originally came back for revenge, but he is not confident enough to go up against Angel or Buffy directly ... not until after the fight with his old gang. He could very well have decided to kill Joyce all by himself, after Willow had cast the spell and he had killed her and Xander and slept off his drunkenness.

My assumption/explanation makes Spike seem less dumb and more human.

But he's a dumb vampire 😛

 

[Btvs fan]

Yeah, the script never says anything. There isn't any proof one way or the other.



I just figured Willow was being terrorized by Spike and didn't say 'its at the school where I was casting a spell on me and Xander', which would be the truth. Willow doesn't want to blame the unstable psychotic vampire for anything.



I've already said that Spike happening upon Joyce on his own suits his current psychology quite well; drunk, heartbroken and nostalgic Spike goes looking for comfort. He remembers that Joyce was 'nice' and non-judgmental and so, seeing her through the window, re-introduces himself and then pours his heart out to a sympathetic ear.

I dunno, I just don't want to blame Willow if I don't have to. My assumption/explanation makes Spike seem less dumb and more human. shrug

It literally cuts from Spike saying where to Buffy and skipping and the phone call !!!

You know this

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I just figured Willow was being terrorized by Spike and didn't say 'its at the school where I was casting a spell on me and Xander', which would be the truth. Willow doesn't want to blame the unstable psychotic vampire for anything.

It would've made more sense for Willow to say she left it on the side in the library. Ignoring the fact that Buffy was actually there, sending Spike to a room full of books would've bought time and offered plausible deniability "Oh Giles must've moved it".

Willow was terrified so obviously said the first thing that came into her head without really thinking it through, but the fact remains that her actions could've gotten Joyce killed.

I've already said that Spike happening upon Joyce on his own

It's more likely Willow told Spike the book was at Buffy's house, he went there to retrieve it, then got side tracked rather then he decide to go there for no reason whatsoever.

 

[katmobile]

I was thought that Buffy was strong enough to leave in episode then he was traumatised and she came back to help him and she was traumatised and freaked out by him pretending to be with Faith which made her realise she couldn't bear to be without him. But by then he was getting physiologically stronger and with the First trying to get him to lose his soul it was probably always on his mind until the Mayor's words along with Joyce's made him realise he had to go and Buffy wasn't ready for that because hope spot and a young girl's intense first love. Angel is used to the idea that his past actions will forever mean he can't be happy and moral Buffy is still resisting because it isn't fair to her.

 

[thetopher]

I honestly don't care enough. It's not a big thing for me.

She was civil with him in "Becoming" but nothing more. It seems too convenient that he would happen by Buffy's house on his way to town and decide to drop by for a chat. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Consider it from Spike's perspective and the things he's been doing all episode; he's wandering around the places he's been before, he's heartbroken and he has a thing for Mum-figures. From his perspective he got on alright with Joyce- she was a surprisingly polite hostess give what was happening- and he wants to vent to anybody willing to listen; Willow, Joyce, Buffy and Angel, anybody.

As for the rest there are already a whole bunch of coincidences of timing involved in this episode; Spike going to the school and finding the exact lab where Willow and Xander are, Angel dropping by Buffy's kitchen window just at the right time to notice Spike with Joyce. Then Buffy arriving mere moments later.

I'm gonna need more than TV coincidence to believe that Willow would do something pretty unwise, that Spike would be dumb enough to fall for it and then for none of it to be referenced. Surely Willow would've told Xander something if she'd sent Spike to Buffy's house? Some glimmer of hope for him? But she didn't. It's not inconceivable that Willow was too terrified to think up any cunning plan and just told him to pick up more stuff.

...In fact, doesn't Spike have, like, a list of ingredients in his pocket?

YES! Just checked the script and Spike has a list of spell ingredients in his pocket. Why would Willow give him spell ingredients if she was just gonna send him to Buffy's to pick up her stuff?
She didn't. She sent him to the Magic Box for brand new stuff. That's the only thing that makes sense.

It's hardly Willow's fault if Spike kills someone.

Not fault exactly, but she would've been culpable of doing something unwise and putting others in danger.
Some on this thread are already saying that what Willow did was wrong, even when there's zero evidence that she did anything.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Spike going to the school and finding the exact lab where Willow and Xander are

He is looking for Willow. The school isn't so big that he wouldn't be able to find her.

YES! Just checked the script and Spike has a list of spell ingredients in his pocket. Why would Willow give him spell ingredients if she was just gonna send him to Buffy's to pick up her stuff?
She didn't. She sent him to the Magic Box for brand new stuff. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Willow sends Spike out for ingredients and for her personal spell book. Willow says she left the book somewhere. Either she is lying or she is talking about a different book than the one she left at the school. Seeing that a love spell and a de-lusting spell are basically the same, she must be talking about the same book.

Willow does not really have any reason to lie, aside from leading Spike to Buffy. The spell is not dangerous. If she lies about the book, it could make Spike angry. If she casts the spell, there is a chance Spike would let them go.

Not fault exactly, but she would've been culpable of doing something unwise and putting others in danger.
Some on this thread are already saying that what Willow did was wrong, even when there's zero evidence that she did anything.

The only way Willow can stop Spike from killing is to send him towards Buffy. Spike is a vampire. He is likely to kill someone no matter where she sends him.

 

[Btvs fan]

On the Rewatch and for me this is still a 10/10 episode and one of my all time favourites. James Marsters was only in 1 episode this season but he takes things to another level. You can see why he would be hired full time. The best thing to happen to his career was Juliet Landau not turning up for this episode because I seriously doubt he would've become a regular otherwise of she had.
I won't go into a huge list of great moments because there are so many from his iconic entrance (I prefer this to School Hard) to him and Joyce having Hot chocolate then taunting Angel though for me the real standout scene is him threatening to shove a glass bottle in Willow's face to then crying and being upset over Dru dumping him. It takes a really skilled actor to get the audience to be terrified of him to suddenly be sympathetic and make it work.

All in all a Stand out episode and one of my favourites 10/10

 

[burrunjor]

Love this one so much.

There are so many hilarious Spike moments. His petty jealousy of Angel, his singing in the car at the end (I loved the way they put that in the opening credits. It looked like he was head banging to the Buffy theme, which is such a kickass head banging theme in it's own right.)

The best though as many have pointed out is his bit with Joyce. Such a great example of what an unpredictable character Spike is.

You think oh no he's going to kidnap Joyce too when Buffy hears her archenemy's voice over the phone "Hello Joyce" and its scary, but then he's just moping to her, and I love the way Joyce is one of these people who is just so polite that she feels she has to be nice to Spike.

I've always said Spike is kind of like Satan from South Park in that technically both are evil, because that's their nature as Demons, but personally they are actually very nice people like Satan helping Stan, or when Spike tries to make Willow feel attractive after Oz dumped her in The Initiative LOL.

The Joyce bit is also the first sign of what a big mommas boy Spike is which is a nice aspect to the character. He is strangely lovable in that scene too. "She's out of her mind. One of the things I miss most about her." Awww you forget that he just tore some poor woman's throat out five minutes earlier LOL.

I agree with the majority here that Xander/Willow cheating was a bad idea. It was however ultimately vital as we need Cordelia and Xander to break up and we got the Wish out of it. Still it was out of character.

I do think Xander and Will could have worked as a couple, but not like this, also if they had been paired up we'd never have got Tara/Willow so it all worked out (or rather it didn't for either Willow or Xander since their loves both died, but you know whatI mean LOL.)

 

[FaithLehane16]

How is it that Angel cannot hear what Spike was doing while he was at the mansion?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

How is it that Angel cannot hear what Spike was doing while he was at the mansion?

Angel moved to another room plus Spike knocked himself out pretty quickly so wouldn't have made any noise during the rest of the evening. In the morning when Spike started shouting because his hand was on fire and the sun was out, Angel was probably asleep. Spike hightailed it out of there and back to his car where he drove off before Angel woke up.

 

[FaithLehane16]

Angel moved to another room plus Spike knocked himself out pretty quickly so wouldn't have made any noise during the rest of the evening. In the morning when Spike started shouting because his hand was on fire and the sun was out, Angel was probably asleep. Spike hightailed it out of there and back to his car where he drove off before Angel woke up.

Yet on the other hand vampires have really good hearing.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Yet on the other hand vampires have really good hearing.

Not always. Buffy had to throw something at Spike to wake him up in one episode even though she'd been calling his name. Also you don't know how far Angel's bedroom is away from the garden. Sound doesn't travel very far in some buildings.

 

[thrasherpix]

Something just occurred to me and I decided to watch this scene again. Just moments later Buffy slams Spike to the counter...which means as Spike was taunting Angel, Buffy came in time to also see Spike doing this. 😀😀😀