Discussion of 5.06 "The Cautionary Tale of Numbero Cinco" - Airdate 11/5/03

It was a nice storyline... I like the episode, though it is not my favorite. Again, Spike is not doing much and Gunn is still in a suit! The story arcs are much more interesting when the gang isn't sticking around a law firm all day. Angel finding hope again was great, but I think the writers could've made something more out of it. I want the longer story arcs back and only occasional monster-of-the-week episodes!
 
I thought this was the best ep this season, and one of my favorites overall. It was beautifully written, directed, and acted. I've felt like the eps have been choppy, the characters have not acted like themselves, and have had a general feeling of the writers trying too hard this season. This ep felt like everything finally gelled. It had a balance they haven't had between the feel of season 1-4 (I loved Angel, Gunn, and Wes with swords, axes, and shot guns again) and the "new" format of S5.
It had significance. Everyone has been whining that Angel hasn't been acting like himself. I've seen so many posts say, "what's wrong with Angel this seaon?" This episode gives us insight into why he's been acting this way. The character development was refreshing, and the interaction Angel had with Wes was great. Wesley hasn't done anything of significance this season, and they finally gave him a personality this week.
What I loved most about this ep, is that the writers are letting us know that they have not forgotten what the series is about. This ep stated that the heart of "Angel" is still about his redemption, but it's changed from S1 and S2. Angel isn't working for a reward anymore, he's doing good because it's the right thing to do. In my eyes, Angel has been selfish by helping people so he can "shanshu." Now, he helps because he can. To me, that redeems him completely, and as the episode implied, he is now a "true hero." It was deeply written, and had enough subtle comedy to make me laugh harder than the supposed "comedy" of the prior week.
 
this was a pretty good episode...kinda strange. The beginning was a little odd. But I thought it was very good. I liked it I guess. I liked how they showed Angel's loss of hope, and then at the very end he asked the book to show him the prophecy. Question though, does spike really not fufill the prophecy? I mean, he saved the whole world!!
 
I knew this episode would have this kind of reaction, and I normally hate all mexican related episodes/movies, but for some reason I loved this one, it's probably my favorite this season, it has like this weird nostalgic-depressive vibe, it's a quality I can't describe but whenever I find it on a movie/show/song/tuna I absolutely love it...

Also, the music and ambience was outstanding, completely different to what we're used to
 
Originally posted by Lorne The Host
it has like this weird nostalgic-depressive vibe, it's a quality I can't describe
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's it. I couldn't put my finger on it either. It has this kind of a Film noir vibe, layered over a 50s B serial, layered over something else. It's pretty special, and it works.
 
I liked this episode, mainly for the re-visitation of the Sanshu prophecy. But a couple of things struck me as contradictory"¦

1) Angel moping about working at W&H---wasn't it just this season's premiere that Angel kept saying to everyone else "This is the right thing. We're doing the right thing." It just seems weird to me that now he's saying things like, "I hate this place." I don't know, maybe I'm just not observant enough to have seen this coming. (And despite nerd4hire's thought-provoking and entertaining "rewind moment" posts, I still don't tape them.)

2) Angel's supporting argument that prophecies are bunk is the prophecy about "The father will kill the son??" Didn't everyone know that was a bogus prophecy, or was Wesley never told? Was Angel trying to bring home a point, or was this a flub in the writing?

I think there's a good and exciting potential for Spike and Angel and the Sanshu prophecy. I still think Spike and Angel need to be at odds for the show to work, and it would be interesting to see them vying for the er"¦honor. Actually, I think it's more realistic and in keeping with the characters for Angel to not give it much though and Spike to obsess about it. Again, I think that the boys need to have conflict in their relationship.
 
my assumption has always been that when time and/or everybody's memories were "reset", they went back to before Conner returned as a teen, not before he was born. if it was before his birth, why is Wes still a badass? and shouldn't Darla be alive? actually that wouldn't be bad...
 
Actually, strangely, I thought this episode was really good! I don't know what it was. Usually I'm not big on episodes where you don't find out much about the big plot, but I found it really funny and I really enjoyed it!
 
im glad wes was in it he looked hot and spike was pretty cool in it cause he wasnt standing around whining! but i still LOVE him!
 
One of my favorite Angel eps and the one I'd call the coolest. Ok, I grew up watching Lucha Libre. Ok, I never really grew up. But it was so cool bringing the Day of the Dead AND Lucha Libre into Angel (Guess you folks didn't grow up watching Spanish language TV.)

Anyway, I really liked the double redemption of Angel and Numero Cinco, and how the heroic luchadores were incorporated into the Angel universe.

Bloody wonderful say i. Pour yourself a cold cerveza and watch it again. I'm planning to do that!
 
Even though many seem to think this episode was boring...

it laid out a lot of interesting groundwork for some issues that shouls come up in the rest of the season.

Angel losing hope and hating W&H, "The father shall kill the son prophecy" Spike coming to grips that he his a champion, even though he is a ghost, and the whole Shanshu prohecy.

I thought there were two great moments in this episode:
When Spike was standing in front of the prophecy book looking at it, and when Angel asked the book to give him the prophecy so he could read it. This is going to be very interesting and it shows the more human and nice sides of both vamps.

And come on, how could you not like five mexican wrestling brothers? That was funny.
 
I can't explain my feelings for this episode. I just felt so disconnected while watching it - like the characters I once loved were so far removed and gone I had no idea who they are now, and I don't think the writers do either. The plot was thin, weak, barely interesting. The parallels between Angel and the Luchador were beyond anvillicious. I just kept wanting to feel engaged, inspired, like there was some creative feat happening before my very eyes...like I felt so many times in the 4 seasons that came before this one, but have not yet felt once this year. It just felt so empty.

I liked the mentioning of "The father will kill the son." I liked the ending. There were one or two funny lines. There were some nicely directed shots, and well-acted moments. But overall, it just felt so inconsequential, so empty, so bland, so forgettable. I like the basic idea and story of the episode. But the execution totally doesn't work for me. I'm hanging on until episode 12. If things haven't picked up, for me, Angel ended in Home.
 
Originally posted by DamnDirtyApes
my assumption has always been that when time and/or everybody's memories were "reset", they went back to before Conner returned as a teen, not before he was born. if it was before his birth, why is Wes still a badass? and shouldn't Darla be alive? actually that wouldn't be bad...
Click to expand...

It is a reasonable assumption that the whole Connor thing was removed. If no one knows who Connor is then it would make no sense that they knew he was born. I think he has been erased from Angel history much like Dawn was wrote into Buffy history. The gaps wouldnt that difficult to fill in...Angel why were you at the bottom of the ocean for 3mouths before? 😕 Oh...em. I slipped on the beach😛 Oh right. Silly me.

Its pretty obvious Connor will return hopefully along with Cordy. The spell was probably not cast on her as at the time it was unnecessary. Therefore if she wakes up the sh1t will hit the fan.

I really loved this episode but the most interesting aspect of this season so far for me is Eve. That look as she left Angel's office in the previous episode. I just cant get a fix on where she is at.

Baron
 
I think that they really need to explain what was and what wasn't re-written in history and how the last two years took place if Connor was not involved. They really need to clear this whole thing up, before it starts to be seen as plot holes instead of as Joss' master plan.
 
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