Discussion of 5.12 "You're Welcome" (WB-US)

AD=Alexis Denisof and AH=Alyson Hannigan...Nice plan btw..I'll be glad for any kind of Bandel end really...
 
I have a few things to say... why does the forum turn black everyonce in a while?
I just watched the episode... I looked really close and didn't see Wes's eyes turn black during the spell to take away Lindsey's marks.
What do you all have against Eve? Personally she reminds me of a certain person... As Cordy said, she's a "Lilah Junior".
After watching the ep. again, I think the, "They forgot everything" theory holds merit. Did anyone see Angel packing, or showing any plans to leave in "Why we fight"? Because in the end of the ep. Wesley says (to Angel) "Unless, of course, you're busy packing." Did anyone see him packing?... don't think so... And in the preview to "Smile Time" they show they are still in W&H... uh oh... looks like Lindsey and Eve are back... (Speculation by the way)
 
FaithsTruCallin said:
What do you all have against Eve? Personally she reminds me of a certain person... As Cordy said, she's a "Lilah Junior".
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Isn't that a good enough reason to hate her?


FaithsTruCallin said:
After watching the ep. again, I think the, "They forgot everything" theory holds merit. Did anyone see Angel packing, or showing any plans to leave in "Why we fight"? Because in the end of the ep. Wesley says (to Angel) "Unless, of course, you're busy packing." Did anyone see him packing?... don't think so...
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He wasn't packing to leave because Cordelia's speech made him want to stay. Duh. Why does everyone want to go around neuralizing our main characters just to restore continuity? LIfe's too short. And, anyway, it's only been one episode since You're Welcome. They may choose to give us an explanation later.

Or maybe they won't just 'cause they're cruel and they like to read the viewers bickering about trival details on sites like this. 😛
 
Don't act like you're better than us. You're here too.

LILAH FOREVER!

CORDELIA
I always did. I... I just needed you to know it, too.

ANGEL
So all that stuff about the deals with the devil...

CORDELIA
(nods)
Was God's honest truth.
(looks at Angel)
But you're bigger than that. You'll win this in the end.
(stands, steps away)
I, uh... just wish I could be there to see it.
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Is this the part of her speech that she was saying he shouldn't leave W&H? She was saying... I am just here to tell you that you will beat them, just keep doing what you're doing?...

If you watch the begining again, you will see that as they walk to the hospital bed they are about to see Cordy in the bed, but then Cordy, vision Cordy, closed the curtain.

Also I can quote Cordy in the begining saying "I'm a vision"... of course she added something like... "Of Beauty" but still...
 
FaithsTruCallin said:
Don't act like you're better than us. You're here too.
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I'll act however I want to. But if I pissed you off, then I'm sorry. I did not intend to appear superior. I am not superior to the rest of the group.

FaithsTruCallin said:
If you watch the begining again, you will see that as they walk to the hospital bed they are about to see Cordy in the bed, but then Cordy, vision Cordy, closed the curtain.
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Yeah, I know it wasn't the standard, blood-and-bone Cordelia that they were dealing with--it was a ghost or a vision or a whatever (that was able to interact with the physical world too). But it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone had their memories wiped afterwards. Besides, if they did, then what was the point of having her show up and say all those things and help Angel continue the fight?

It was Cordy that shut down the Big Bad Jack-In-The-Box that Lindsey tried to fire up. She was very much, really there, helping Angel and the gang out, even as she was lying dying in the hospital bed as well. Gods and Powers That Be (read: the show's writers) can do stuff like that if and when they want to. 🙂

Btw, any speculations as to whether that Big Bad (that we didn't actually see) was a one-shot or if it will be back later?
 
I think it will definitly be back later, and if the PTB sent Cordy to help Angel, than the SP still could have wiped memories, because they want Lindsey to continue with what he was doing... when did we decide that Lindsey was against the SPs? Because of what Lindsey said to Angel? Not the most reliable source, especially considering whom he was talking to.

We did see that the SP can do that... Connor is the proof.
 
FaithsTruCallin said:
because they want Lindsey to continue with what he was doing... when did we decide that Lindsey was against the SPs?
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I think it was the part where the Senior Partners sucked Lindsey thorugh a portal the moment he lost his protection runes. Yeah, you're right anything is possible and it could all be a bluff. Lindsey could be working with the SPs. Hell, for all we know, the SPs are the good guys and the PTB are the bad guys. Remember, Jasmine was a Higher Power before she became a sort of goddess.

Nevertheless, my money says Lindsey was/is working aganst the SPs and Angel and everyone else (except possible the robot guys). Way back when Lindsey left the show in 2nd season he told Angel something close to, "the secret is: don't let them make you play their game." and that's why I don't think he's in with the SPs. One recurring theme I've noticed in this season is that Angel's being (or rather: some forces want him to be able to be) played like a puppet. It's like there's three forces: the PTB--they want him as their champion. The SPs--they want him to go evil and, uh, basically be their champion. And the robot guys--they either want Angel to be their champion or else they want him dead. Also, going with the puppet theme--there's the ep where Angel's helpless on the bed with the icky thingie on his chest, then there was the necromancer towards the beginning of the season. A puppet dancing on a little string. Pulled by powerful forces first this way, then that.

Of course, I don't think Angel's really a puppet. And, of course, the danger would be if Angel started to believe it himself.
 
Wow Baron, you're right... hmmm... I never thought about it that way... lol. I hate spoilers... I HATE THEM! but i still watch the previews... not sure why... maybe I'll stop... weee!

And it's very funny that he hasn't seen the preview and used that analogy over and over again... wooooo!
 
OH..........MY............GOD.........
Ive just watched Your Welcome, well 'just' being half an hour ago, and I still cant stop crying...Its the saddest thing Ive ever seen in my whole entire life, and thats including Anya's death.
Im crying more now than I did with Anya...
Im so sad....
 
Well, if we needed any more proof that what Angel and Cordelia shared far transcended anything the pubsecent eternal love rubbish Buffy and Angel had to offer (I mean come on, cookie dough FFS), then here it is. Heck, if people hated C/A for having no romantisced overblown angst, the then last scences in YW should go all-out to dispel that. Here we see the REAL Angel and Cordelia together, and I'd take any one of their last moments over the schmaltzy tripe that was Angel and Buffy. I just don't get the whole no romantic chemistry stuff that people spurt out. Angel's relationship with Cordelia was more than just romance!Anyways the chemistry was there for all to see in YW- it's just a shame that the REAL Cordy couldn't get to interact romantically with Angel apart from those few last minutes- which were beautiful!

Those two fit like hand and glove. Nobody will convince me that there is a better love partenership in the whole Whedonverse than Cordy and Angel. It was indeed TRUE love.
 
C
Cordelia
Couldn't Agree with you more :)
I'm torn on my thoughts of "You're Welcome". . .

I absouletely loved Cordelia. She was SUCH a well rounded character. In the start of Buffy, she was just the high-school biotch that you just HAD to love because she was SO hilarious; and then when she started dating Xander, you saw a softer side to her. . .and when she turned onto Angel, she became the girl you could really see wasn't horrible -- but more. . .misunderstood. It was sad Cordelia never found her inevitable super-stardom in L.A., but I always looked at it in the way that instead of finding that. . .she found herself. She discovered things she didn't think she had before and she created not only friendships with people, but a family. I think that even if Cordy hadn't have recieved the visions, she still would've been the person that she was throughout Angel, and I absouletely loved her for it. Season Four of Angel made me dislike Cordelia alot, and I'm SO glad that Joss brought CC back to wrap her character up in Season Five because it gave you a certain Cordy sized closure. I was vety-vety happy with it. Really. 'Couldn't have done it better IMO. She recreated her friendships with people, and ended the things she needed to end.

As for C/A. Eeep, this is a touchy subject for me -- LOL. Throughout Season Three when "WitW" happened, I was SCREAMING at the TV about Angel's damn stupidity because he was "supposed to be with Buffy" and then when he started to give her his speech, I was sitting there going "aww". . .and I was a C/A 'Shipper for a while in Season Three. But then, on the finale, I started to sift away from liking them. I mean, they were going to declare there love for each other and go into a relationship I didn't think they could've had [and he totally ignored the reasons he gave Buffy for breaking up with her]; and then Season Four, it was like the crash and burning points of C/A for me. LOL. Yet in YW, I saw a good side to C/A. Cordelia brought out the best points in Angel, she made him see that things in life wouldn't always be as tormenting for him as he thought they'd be. . .and she brought him out of his brooding phases like noone else really could. She made him laugh and smile, which were rare qualities in Angel, and she gave a closure for me. However, I honestly didn't see the C/A relationship as anything more than a friendship. NOT because they didn't have chemistry; NOT because I'm a B/A 'Shipper. . .but because. . .it a was something that I couldn't see working out. Angel had his curse, Cordy had her humanity [yada-yada-yada], and it was something that I wanted to stay a friendship. Buffy and Angel never had a friendship, and when relationships end the whole "let's still be friends" thing never really pans out. The idea of them loosing their PERFECT best friendship scared me in the slightest, and I didn't want that to happen, so I was VERY close minded to the whole C/A thing. [And eep, please don't take my opinions offensive here at all because I'm NOT trying to bash, lol.] I don't really believe that they were soulmates either. Buffy and Angel never hid their feelings from one another. They loved each other, and they weren't afraid to admit it. . .Cordelia and Angel always shied away from saying "I love you"; they always cut off -- with the exception of the whole "we were" thing. I'm still one with the mind for B/A being soulmates. . .just 'cause I think they had the kinda star-crossed love that only came once in a lifetime, but I do understand he loved Cordelia; and I'd never take anything away from that fact. YET! In "You're Welcome" I was glad they ended the relationship with a kiss. It gave a closure to both the C/A-ers and the non-C/A-ers. It was kinda. . .the last point to their relationship, and it was good.
 
J
Jacklyn
You disliked C/A for the exact reasons my hubby did! And although I'm completely a C/A shipper, you've put it in a well-worded way I can understand. Thanks for that.
But it's easy for anti-C/Aers to say that they can come to appreciate C/A in YW, as it was effectively left for dead- she wasn't going to come back, so people just say "well it was only one dead kiss - let em' have that at least." I don't buy the sudden acceptance.

I do agree however, that C/A did stem from a somewhat illogical base- if Angel couldn't make Buffy happy, why could he make Cordelia? I never understood that myself personally! In hindsight maybe Angel shouldn't have been romantically involved with anyone, b/c it was quite clear that the writers were always trying to feed us with this whole B/A soulmate crap. I don't believe in soulmates, which is why I can identify with C/A better- because it was believable. They were not destined to be together (forget all this moira bull****) but they grew on each other and, therefore into a relationship of closeness that is not matched with any other relationship in the whole of Jossverse. I liked where the love stemmed from. Falling in love with your best friend- there is a poignancy about that!

I will say that B/A did make for great TV tho' - they shared some great moments. Just wasn't my cup of tea in the end!
 
Kyla said:
maybe Angel shouldn't have been romantically involved with anyone, b/c it was quite clear that the writers were always trying to feed us with this whole B/A soulmate crap. I don't believe in soulmates,
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True. And I don't believe in soulmates either. Except, perhaps in some movies like What Dreams May Come. 🙂

Kyla said:
which is why I can identify with C/A better- because it was believable.
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A lot of the C/A stuff that happened early on seemed far too convenient to be believable to me. And it very much seemed to contradict the soulmate idea (as you indicated). But at the end of Your Welcome, I believed. And, in that moment, it was a lot more believable than all of the B/A stuff (IMHO).

Kyla said:
Falling in love with your best friend- there is a poignancy about that!
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Yeah, it's pretty cool. (And Xander chimes in) And probably the dream of every straight guy on the planet with attractive female friends. 🙂
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
But at the end of Your Welcome, I believed. And, in that moment, it was a lot more believable than all of the B/A stuff (IMHO).
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I appreciate your sanity. One of a very few, you are!

No, that's not meant to be a dig....well yes it is.....

But how can you think that C/A was not believable? It was totally believable- the way they grew on each other, understood the other better than anyone else. It wasn't always in your face but there were nice subtle moments here and there. The subtext was in the end more interesting than the actual text b/c they completely destroyed the characters (especially Cordelia's) and everything simple and beautiful about their relationship, to make way for some secondary B/A ship. C/A didn't need angst (s4), mystical influence, (WiTW), hokey pokey dreams (Awakening)- it just needed to be REAL- ala You're Welcome! Two characters who went through a long journey together and found each other at the end of it- two people who made life better for one another, connected to each other in a wholly adult way! Maybe as an adult I can appreciate it better! If that puts me in the minority I'm more than happy with it!
 
Kyla said:
they completely destroyed the characters (especially Cordelia's) and everything simple and beautiful about their relationship, to make way for some secondary B/A ship. C/A didn't need angst (s4), mystical influence, (WiTW), hokey pokey dreams (Awakening)-
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Maybe that was the part that seemed fake. It's just, at least inth the beginning of the C/A stuff, I mean the first time(s) it was actually mentioned, it felt like, "oh, ok so Buffy's far away, so now we'll create emotional conflict here just to keep it interesting. *yawn*" But at the relationship grew, the sensibility of it seemed to grow too. And then, as you say, they tore everything apart. Now, don't get me wrong, I actually liked season four, I thought it was cool. And the bit in The Awakening I liked also (because it served as a neat mechanism to Angel losing his soul), even if it was hokey.
---------
I'm watching season five again right now, 5x19 Time Bomb. I'd really like to get my hands on those source books of Wesley's, they rock! 🙂 I'm doing some random Linux hacking and those books could be quite helpful. I suppose I'll have to make do with `man', `info', `locate', `find', `whatis', `which', and of course `links www.google.com/search?q='.

And I really like the Wesley/Illyria conversations.
 
Kyla said:
It was totally believable- the way they grew on each other, understood the other better than anyone else. It wasn't always in your face but there were nice subtle moments here and there. The subtext was in the end more interesting than the actual text b/c they completely destroyed the characters (especially Cordelia's) and everything simple and beautiful about their relationship, to make way for some secondary B/A ship. C/A didn't need angst (s4), mystical influence, (WiTW), hokey pokey dreams (Awakening)- it just needed to be REAL- ala You're Welcome!
Oh, I agree completely that if the world was good and just Cordy and Angel would have gotten to have a real life together. However, the Whedonverse isn't like that and I would argue that the fact that things turned out so badly for Cordelia has nothing to do with the Buffy/Angel story line.

The writers of Angel created a very powerful, very painful story-arc when the decided that Cordy's visions would kill her. The fact that Cordy had the visions opened the gate for her to be infused with demon essence (Jasmine) and gradually possessed. Cordy died in You're Welcome because after Jasmine was born she slipped back into her state in Birthday. She was just pure Cordy waiting to die.

I would argue that you cannot separate the tragety of Cordy's life from her relationship with Angel. The circumstances of their friendship were formed by the circumstaces of their lives as was their love.

I have strong reservations about Angel being in a relationship with anyone, however. That he didn't notice as Cordy's body was stolen or try to save her once she was in a coma, is to me unforgivable. Angel was willing to kill Cordy to prevent Jasmine's birth, knowing that Cordy the woman he loved was possesed. I can not imagine killing someone I loved in cold blood the way Angel planned. The terrifying thing is that he thought he was doing good. Angel's actions towards Buffy when he left her for the first time and erased her memory/changed time without her consent in IWRY make me wonder if he is fit to be in a normal relationship since he seems to have so little reguard for other people.

Angel is the man the Cordy loved and he clearly loved her. Their relationship, although it never happened was real. However, I do not think that Angel deserves to be with Cordy, or Buffy, or any other woman until he is no longer willing to sacrifice or forget about the women he loves when it is convienient.
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Hitome said:
I can not imagine killing someone I loved in cold blood the way Angel planned.
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Well, you're not Angel are you? 🙂 Time and again, the series has revealed Angel as the ambiguous do-whatever-it-takes "semi-hero".

But anyway, is this really such a gray area? After all, Buffy killed Angel in similar circumstances and Buffy is supposed to be the righteous, not-so-ambiguious "full-hero" (or heroine, if you prefer).
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
But anyway, is this really such a gray area? After all, Buffy killed Angel in similar circumstances and Buffy is supposed to be the righteous, not-so-ambiguious "full-hero" (or heroine, if you prefer).
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Buffy didn't kill him if you want to be technical about it she just stabbed him and sent him to a hell dimension which was probably worse than killing him in some respects. Buffy had no alternative other than to stab Angel, and she recognized just how horrible yet necessary her actions were. She was not, however, able to kill Dawn. I would equate Angel's decision to kill Cordy with Buffy's decision not to kill Dawn. The world would not end automatically if Angel tried to save Cordelia, he still had a change to find a way out of his situation. Angel, however, was determined to kill Cordelia by stabbing her with a sword. It was his first choice, and he was dealing with a woman not a monster. That fact is problematic. Dawn and Cordy were both completely innocent of any wrong doing. Killing them might have been necessary but was also inherently wrong. Because Buffy didn't want to kill her sister she came up with a way out by sacrificing herself. Angel obviously didn't have a similiar way out, but he also didn't know what Jasmine was or what she would do. In other words he was willing to kill the woman he loved over the possiblity that the world might end.
 
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