Discussion of 5.12 "You're Welcome" (WB-US)

[WyrdDemonHunter]

Buffy didn't kill him if you want to be technical about it she just stabbed him and sent him to a hell dimension which was probably worse than killing him in some respects. Buffy had no alternative other than to stab Angel, and she recognized just how horrible yet necessary her actions were. She was not, however, able to kill Dawn. I would equate Angel's decision to kill Cordy with Buffy's decision not to kill Dawn.

Of course you do because it suits you so to do. :silly: Still, it seems to me the situation more closely mirrors the Buffy-kills-Angel part. If I remember correctly, Angel did not know for sure what would happen once the Power was lose (nor did he know it was a Power). Based on what had happened so far, with the rain of fire, various signs of imminent apocolypse and the statements of "you're all doomed" from our good buddy Skip, Angel had every reason to believe the world was, in fact, about to end.

Further in season four Angel, Cordy was, for all practical purposes like Angelus season two BtVS but without any way to save her by making her not evil. Skip said the Power had invaded every particle of her being.

It was his first choice, and he was dealing with a woman not a monster.

It was not his first choice, he would have preferred to save her, but that was not an option. There was no way to get the Power to leave her until it wanted to leave.

also didn't know what Jasmine was or what she would do. In other words he was willing to kill the woman he loved over the possiblity that the world might end.

He thought he knew what was going to happen. He thought some irristible, unstoppable force of destructive power would be unleashed upon the world and this was his one chance to prevent that.

And I think you're mischaracterizing things by saying "the woman that he loved". That makes it sound all extra-tragic. Let's be clear here--Angel apparently does not love just one woman. Buffy was first, and he's still supposedly soulmate to her or whatever. Now, does that somehow make it all ok to go around killing people that he loves? Heck no! but it does muddy the waters a bit and make things more murky/less clear. I challenge you to think of a way to have gotten Cordy out of the situation without letting Jasmine come into being and without killing Cordy. Remember, this was noroutine possession.
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I'm not trying to say that it was a great plan of Angel's, to go kill Cordy. All I'm saying is that, IMHO, on the scale of nearly-evil actions that Angel has done, I don't think this one really registers. Angel thought the Power, or whatever it was, would unleash terrible destruction upon the land. Much like having Earth sucked into hell would do. Given those dire circumstances he acted accordingly. In any case, he failed, partly because he hesitated at the last moment because he paused to tell her, "I'm so sorry."

 

[Hitome]

I challenge you to think of a way to have gotten Cordy out of the situation without letting Jasmine come into being and without killing Cordy. Remember, this was noroutine possession.

I know how he easily could. It would not stop Jasmine from being born, but it would save his world and would make Cordy saveable. With no more Jasmine, Wesley and anyone else who is mystically adept can attempt to figure out why Cordy is in a coma and then save her, which if it's the visions isn't so hard. In Supersymmetry Wesley and Fred learned the spells to open other dimensions from the book Fred's professor had. In addition I'm sure Wesley knows other dimension opening spells. The solution is to use a spell to open a portal on the coordinates of the rooms of the building Connor and Cordy are in. They could probably use some sort of locator spell to find their exact location. I Wesley used the time it took Angel to drive to the apartment to find a spell that would send Cordy and Connor to a world with a surviveable atmosphere and no sentient like Jasmine could be born with minimal harm. Of course Angel would have to travel there later and there would still be major problems defeating Jasmine, but with out all the human casualties unless Angel brings her back to Earth. Basically that would be a very bad story arc, too anti-climatic and Fred doesn't get to save the world etc.

Angel did not know for sure what would happen once the Power was lose (nor did he know it was a Power). Based on what had happened so far, with the rain of fire, various signs of imminent apocolypse and the statements of "you're all doomed" from our good buddy Skip, Angel had every reason to believe the world was, in fact, about to end....Angel thought the Power, or whatever it was, would unleash terrible destruction upon the land. Much like having Earth sucked into hell would do.

Actually Angel didn't know that the world would physically end, just that a demonic being would be born. He didn't know what type of being, a creature that has matter is something he could fight after it exsited. Whatever the creature would do to the world was not predictable, but Angel could make a strong assumption that it was defeatable and not all powerful. All that he knew was that something really evil was about to come into existence. Buffy knew that the fabric of space/time was about to be ripped into pieces and her world sucked into Hell when she stabbed Angel and sent him to another dimension. (Could you please tell me why people/Buffy use the world "killed"? Angel clearly wasn't dust so wasn't killed as far as I can tell) Angel's choice was therefore more like Buffy's choice with Dawn. Buffy knew that all dimensions would merge if Glory succeded which is a very bad thing, obviously much worse for human survial than the existence of a being like Glory or Jasmine, but she chose not to kill her sister regardless of the considences. I you are arguing "greater good" and moral relativism, Buffy's decision was horribly evil since she was willing to sacrifice many innocent people to save her sister. That is assuming, however, that Buffy is responsible not only for her own actions but also for Glory's actions and the existence of Hell creatures and natural disasters that might come along with merging the dimensions because she failed to stop them. This arguement is silly to me because Buffy is not a God and can't save the world all she can hope to do is not to harm the people she loves and fight against evil without becoming evil even if she can't win.

Angel didn't try to save Cordy he was willing to sacrifice her because it was the "easiest" thing physically if not emotionally to do. Angel was willing to fight evil by becoming evil. That is not a bad trait in a character, but it is certainly not something we should condone, by saying that his decision wasn't really evil because it was for a good cause.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

In Supersymmetry Wesley and Fred learned the spells to open other dimensions from the book Fred's professor had. In addition I'm sure Wesley knows other dimension opening spells. The solution is to use a spell to open a portal on the coordinates of the rooms of the building Connor and Cordy are in. They could probably use some sort of locator spell to find their exact location.

If it were that easy, I'm sure they would have done just that. In-story, I'm sure they would say that opening portals to other dimensions is tricky business. The most especially tricky part about it is the getting the two ends of the portal to appear just where you want them to. Note that typically the caster is actually at the location of one end of the portal. To open a portal under Cordy without even being able to see it would probably not be easy, even with a snazzy locator spell. Also, I imagine "the vessel" i.e. Cordy had all sorts of protections placed on her when she got beamed back down to Earth to prevent just such a thing from occuring. Remember, Skip said that most of the major events of the past three seasons had been intentionally crafted just so to bring about the birth of the Power.

Out-of-story, there's the obvious point that if the characters can pop up portals under any random nasty-baddy that they want whenever or whereever they want with no negative consequences the whole storyworld quickly gets broken because there won't be any challenge anymore. duh.

Actually Angel didn't know that the world would physically end, just that a demonic being would be born. He didn't know what type of being, a creature that has matter is something he could fight after it exsited.

He'd recently been attempting and failing to fight the Beast. Angelus was eventually able to kill it, but Angel never did. And every sign indicated that this thing about to be born would be the most malevolent, powerful thing that's walked this plane of existence in a very long time. He had every reason to believe this creature might not be stoppable. At least not before it had rampaged around and killed a whole bunch of people.

Whatever the creature would do to the world was not predictable

No it was not. And in such cases, it's usually best to err on the side of caution.

(Could you please tell me why people/Buffy use the world "killed"? Angel clearly wasn't dust so wasn't killed as far as I can tell)

Because it's more dramatic. It's like when you said Cordy and Dawn were "innocent" when neither of them were in the strictest sense of the word, especially Cordy. It's not that she was ever evil as such in high school, but she certainly isn't someone I'd call innocent.

Angel's choice was therefore more like Buffy's choice with Dawn. Buffy knew that all dimensions would merge if Glory succeded which is a very bad thing, obviously much worse for human survial than the existence of a being like Glory or Jasmine, but she chose not to kill her sister regardless of the considences. I you are arguing "greater good" and moral relativism, Buffy's decision was horribly evil since she was willing to sacrifice many innocent people to save her sister. That is assuming, however, that Buffy is responsible not only for her own actions but also for Glory's actions and the existence of Hell creatures and natural disasters that might come along with merging the dimensions because she failed to stop them. This arguement is silly to me because Buffy is not a God and can't save the world all she can hope to do is not to harm the people she loves and fight against evil without becoming evil even if she can't win.

Ok, couple things here:
1st: I'm not the one that keeps bringing up the Buffy-won't-kill-Dawn argument that's you that's doing that, I was trying to focus on the Buffy-did-kill-(or at least stab with a magical sword that, for all we know, may have been able to kill)-Angel (or even if it couldn't kill, the event caused Angel to promptly get sent to Hell which is very nearly the same thing as being killed and going to Hell)
2nd: How can you manage to put "greater good", "moral relativism" and "horribly evil" all in the same sentence? 🙂 Do they really all fit together?
3rd: I don't get this part: "That is assuming, however, that Buffy is responsible not only for her own actions but also for Glory's actions and the ".

Angel didn't try to save Cordy he was willing to sacrifice her because it was the "easiest" thing physically if not emotionally to do. Angel was willing to fight evil by becoming evil. That is not a bad trait in a character, but it is certainly not something we should condone, by saying that his decision wasn't really evil because it was for a good cause.

It's interesting, isn't it, that we naturally tend to lump all the responsiblity on our title characters. I mean in the huge situations, there's probably plenty of guilt to go around.

I don't think either of us are likely to change our positions in this debate, although you can feel free to try to continue to change mine if you like.

You could be right, I guess, but I just don't quite see it. This has been useful though as it's served to remind me of how complicated and unclear all the morality stuff can get in a BtVS or Angel episode. I remember in the Buffy ep you're talking about where Buffy was openly threatening to kill anyone that tried to hurt Dawn.

And if, in the final analyisis, it feels to you as if Angel took an easier choice, then the blame probably falls on the writers rather than the character for not taking the time to more clearly illustrate that he had no workable alternatives. (Just my $15.02 🙂 )