Discussion of 5.16 "Shells" (WB-US) - Airing 3/3/04
- Thread starter Buffy Summers
- Start date
KansasSlayer524
Townie
That was the sadest episode! No more Fred. I cried. But Joff almost always brings people back. Wes looked stupid in his turtle neck with a gun. I'm like "What is this!? COPS?!" But it was a good episode. Illyria didn't blink, it bothered me. You really saw the real Wes in this episode. And how much feelings he had for Fred. It was wonderful.
"You will help me because I look like her."
"You will help me because I look like her."
xtrustno1x
Kinky.
I loved this episode. I really enjoy Emotional!Wes. I really liked the end - the dialouge between Illyria and Wes, plus Spike's speech. Part of me feels sorry for Gunn, but I keep hanging on to the fact that he made a concious decision to make the deal.
Great episode but so sad! Alexis is a really great actor, he made me cry again. Illyria looks cool but I hope they find some way to help restore Fred. I like that Knox got shot, hated him from the beginning. Harmony almost seems like she has a soul, she's pretty cool this year.
Angels baby101
I hath Returned! MWhaha
I cried through the whole episode expecially the end i mean it was so sad 🙁 poor wes and everyone else this sucks i miss fred ::crying:: ::crying::
It was a great episode; very effective and sad, extemely sad. I actually cried twice: at the end and during the Gunn scene with Harmony.
Wesley is very different from last season. He seems to believe in individual morality for demons as well as human and is willing to give Illyria a chance to become good. Maybe it is a trick? I doubt it but could be wrong. Strange, he was one of my favorite characters in S4, but I find myself repusled by Wesley now. He is a odd mixture of innocence and ruthlessness. He is willing to believe in truth and justice while taking measures into his own hands out of rage and grief. I always thought that actions that hurt other people motivated by real human emotions were somehow purer than those based on pragmatic concerns. Now I'm not so sure. I don't understand why I am repulsed by Wesley now, but could sympathize with him last season. He's not more corrupt (I know that this is arguable) and to me he seems a little sheltered and naive. He has justifiable reasons for some of his behavior except for stabbing Gunn. I am interested to see how Gunn will progress this season. He has fallen as far as he can and now I think may be redeemed. No one can punish him more than he will punish himself every remaining moment of his life for one foolish act taken in ignorance and arrogance that led to Fred's death.
About Fred's soul, do you think that the doctor was lying? He had no reason to tell the truth, and maybe he thought that if the group believed that they can never save Fred they would stop trying. Besides he enjoyed causing pain and that was the way he could hurt Gunn the most.
I was very happy with Angel in this episode. He is starting to redeem himself from the corruption of W&H and his own moral disillusionment. He was willing to kill Cory to save the world, but now wants to harm as few people as possible. I think his statement about Knox was a formative moment. Maybe Angel will now become the champion for good again.
Wesley is very different from last season. He seems to believe in individual morality for demons as well as human and is willing to give Illyria a chance to become good. Maybe it is a trick? I doubt it but could be wrong. Strange, he was one of my favorite characters in S4, but I find myself repusled by Wesley now. He is a odd mixture of innocence and ruthlessness. He is willing to believe in truth and justice while taking measures into his own hands out of rage and grief. I always thought that actions that hurt other people motivated by real human emotions were somehow purer than those based on pragmatic concerns. Now I'm not so sure. I don't understand why I am repulsed by Wesley now, but could sympathize with him last season. He's not more corrupt (I know that this is arguable) and to me he seems a little sheltered and naive. He has justifiable reasons for some of his behavior except for stabbing Gunn. I am interested to see how Gunn will progress this season. He has fallen as far as he can and now I think may be redeemed. No one can punish him more than he will punish himself every remaining moment of his life for one foolish act taken in ignorance and arrogance that led to Fred's death.
About Fred's soul, do you think that the doctor was lying? He had no reason to tell the truth, and maybe he thought that if the group believed that they can never save Fred they would stop trying. Besides he enjoyed causing pain and that was the way he could hurt Gunn the most.
I was very happy with Angel in this episode. He is starting to redeem himself from the corruption of W&H and his own moral disillusionment. He was willing to kill Cory to save the world, but now wants to harm as few people as possible. I think his statement about Knox was a formative moment. Maybe Angel will now become the champion for good again.
Hey--I'm new here...actually, I signed up specifically because I needed desperately to comment on this episode. To make a terrible pun, I'm, well, "shell"-shocked. :\ I've been watching "Buffy" since season two, and "Angel" since it premiered, and I have never cried so hard at any episode ever. "Shells," I think, was the most exquisitely painful episode that Joss & Co. have ever created...and for that reason, I kind of think Fred won't be coming back. For one thing, that phrase was repeated enough friggin' times that we were very much intended to "get it"--then again, I suppose that could just be to lead us off the track...heh. Ah, the joy of the Jossverse. No idea what'll happen next. I kind of hope Fred does come back. The whole bit about her soul being destroyed absolutely killed me. Throughout both shows, and especially since Buffy came back from the dead, it's just been a given that the soul is separate, and that it goes somewhere after the body is gone. The idea that Fred's soul was destroyed makes hers easily the hardest death to deal with, I think. Anyway, sorry about this rambling post. Maybe when I stop crying I'll be able to think more clearly *sniffle*
I think maybe this is going to be, like Tara's death, the time that they can't save her.
I would say this has to be one of my favorite episodes. I love Illyria - poor Amy! She gets an awesome storyline just in time for it to end. We need another season of Illyria 🙂 Amy ust did a fantastic job - so different from Fred.
The Wes-Illyria bit at the end where he tells her she can't kill anyone and he'll help - did that remind anyone else of another movie? Becuase its nagging at the back of my head but I can't place it.
I loved Spike in this ep - you could see how much he cared about Fred. Plus talking about the Jack was so funny...
I would say this has to be one of my favorite episodes. I love Illyria - poor Amy! She gets an awesome storyline just in time for it to end. We need another season of Illyria 🙂 Amy ust did a fantastic job - so different from Fred.
The Wes-Illyria bit at the end where he tells her she can't kill anyone and he'll help - did that remind anyone else of another movie? Becuase its nagging at the back of my head but I can't place it.
I loved Spike in this ep - you could see how much he cared about Fred. Plus talking about the Jack was so funny...
SlayersDestiny
Destiny
This was a good ep but I am slightly confused by some things. First of all, the paper that Gunn signed, was it a resignation letter? He will punish himself far more than Wes will ever be able to. His selfishness came at a horrible price, his friends life. Second, what is the deal with Wes? OK, I know that he is grieving, but come on. Does he even think that Fred would agree with his actions? She was the epitome of goodness and he is destroying that by his aggression. I understand his love and pain, but I dont like this side of him. He took his hatred/anger out on Gunn and Knox, so why not Spike and Angel? Angel had the ability to stop Illyria from remaining in Fred and chose not to. Good episode but too many loose ends. I am rather anxious to see just how this all pans out.
Buffy Summers said:
Oh the little bottles were hillarious. He was wonderful. I almost forgot with everything else that happened. Do you think that the Jack had deeper philisophical type synificance. Spike had the monologue last episode about the hole in the world and this episode he talked about the Jack. Both seemed random, but I don't think they were. This reminds me why I love Spike.
On another subject, I don't think Fred is comming back either. Fred and Cordy's deaths are both final even thought they were supernatural deaths I don't think either woman will be reserected. The powers killed Cordy; she was destined to die after she got the visions. Fred's death was worse though if Illyria destroyed her soul.
Another great episode. I thought Illyria was creepy. Mostly her eyes...also, she acted really weird when she and Wes were in Fred's apartment. I miss Fred so much, but it didn't get so bad for me until I saw that flashback at the end. Each character was great in this episode...even Lorne who didn't have much screen time...the way he just had to get away from it all. Harmony made me laugh a few times, which was great. Spike and Angel were great too. It was so sad to just see Wes in this episode. I'm anxious to see how Gunn does after all this. I wish we didn't have to wait all the way until April.
Buffy Summers said:
That's what has me confused. She said she won't anyone anymore. Does that mean she's going to try to be a good guy now? I find it kinda stupid that they'd kill off Fred, bring in Illyria, and then make Illyria wanna be good. Could you clear that up for me, is she gunna be a good guy?
Harmony was really good in this episode. She seems so much more respectful on Angel than she was on Buffy. I can't believe Wesley stabbed Gunn!
xtrustno1x
Kinky.
I'm not sure if I believe (or want to believe) that Fred is dead. It wouldn't surprise me, but it seems kind of...repetitive? The Cordy and Fred storylines seem to parrallel each other. I hope we're spared another female character death. I'm not being very realistic, considering Joss's track record with couples, but I have hope for Fred.
Kindred
Permanent state of confusion...
Sounds like Willow's comming over, no?
Alright, while I thought the episode was done so very well, and that Amy was absolutely amazing, I felt like something was missing. For some reason, the emotional aspect just wasn't there. I felt like I ought to have been crying, but just didn't.
As for Wesley trying to make Illyria "good". I highly doubt that even in his grief stricken state he thinks this is possible. I think it's the only thing he can see to do though. He get's to be close to what was once Fred, and probably save lots of people, and send Illyria back where she belongs.
Alright, while I thought the episode was done so very well, and that Amy was absolutely amazing, I felt like something was missing. For some reason, the emotional aspect just wasn't there. I felt like I ought to have been crying, but just didn't.
As for Wesley trying to make Illyria "good". I highly doubt that even in his grief stricken state he thinks this is possible. I think it's the only thing he can see to do though. He get's to be close to what was once Fred, and probably save lots of people, and send Illyria back where she belongs.
R
rene
Guest
so this means that freds not in heaven or hell or anything shes just gone? that was one of the best eps ever j august was amazing and this ep was sadder than the ep she actually died especially at the end when they showed her driving to LA alos spike made a good choice i like how much hes grown as a character and do you think they have or will notify freds family? they cant exactly have a funeral but what if her parents call askin to speak to her? they cant say shes in the shower or something forever
W
Willow02
Guest
This was a great episode but very sad. I'm not a cryer but when cordy died i balled. And the last part of this episode I balled. When they started showing everyone from the gang just sitting there doing nothing I lost it. I was kinda hoping that Illyria was gonna do the same thing that Fred did and she was gonna be sucked back into her little coffen thing and Fred would come back but it didn't happen 🙁 I don't think I can wait to long till the next episode. But I guess i'm gonna have to 🙁
nerd4hire
Certified Uncloneable
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2002
- Messages
- 9,102
If I was them, I'd hand the phone to Illyria, and say "It's for you". Let her explain it.
.
It had me thinking of Terminator 2 when John Connor tells the terminator he can't kill anyone. Is that it?
This episode felt strange on me. I know it affected me. I think I liked it. I don't know. I have to watch it 5 or 6 more times and think about it again. I can do that with the great ones.
So what's going to happen with Illyria now. Is she a regular. I sure hope so. She is at this moment, officially my second favourite Whedonverse character, almost at a tie with Fray.
I want a Illyria spin-off. Yeah...
First off, great episode!
Second, I think in this episode it really hit that Fred was gone.. It was so sad.. And now with walking talking Fred shell everywhere, it's like salt in the wound.
Third, IT WAS GILES! I don't think anyone expected that, and man o man is the Buffy gang giving Angel hell for taking over W&H. Does anyone think they are being a little harsh though? I mean, an innocent life was at steak and they pretty much told them oh well. I think there are some issues there.
Now this whole Illyria (sp) thing.. Could she really want to be good? She is a demon right? Of course Lorn is a demon to, but she was a major human hating killing machine, I find it hard to believe that she would just up and want to behave. But then again having Fred's memories may have done something? Maybe Fred's soul somehow, when consumed, left an imprint on Illyria? When she played back Fred's dying words to Wes, it was just gut wrenching, like wow. I wonder how the rest of the gang will take it, hearing that she wants to "abide" and "learn to walk in this world" it will be nearly unbearable to see Fred all the time but not Fred.. And seeing more Fred flashbacks really pulls at the old heart strings.. I think Fred was just one of those characters that you don't even realize how much you love till they are gone.
Wes and his fits of stress related insanity, and Gun's insecurities, make me thing that while this season is about corruption, it is also about human weakness. Without human weakness corruption would have no foot hold, and it is starting to show. Both guys are just torn up, and there was this scene of Angel, Spike, and Harm that looked like a new fang gang core group scene, and notice they are all vampires.. While the vampires suffered corruption this season it was different, they all came out of it and now are strong and all fighting for good, but the humans are the ones "consumed" and majorly damaged. That just struck me as odd.
Anyways this arc is really interesting, and I can't wait for the next episode, I think there is one more before the break right? cause they didn't show a trailer for next week here, I sure hope there is one more.. ack! Now I am worried and have to go check..
Ciao all
~ Faithy
Second, I think in this episode it really hit that Fred was gone.. It was so sad.. And now with walking talking Fred shell everywhere, it's like salt in the wound.
Third, IT WAS GILES! I don't think anyone expected that, and man o man is the Buffy gang giving Angel hell for taking over W&H. Does anyone think they are being a little harsh though? I mean, an innocent life was at steak and they pretty much told them oh well. I think there are some issues there.
Now this whole Illyria (sp) thing.. Could she really want to be good? She is a demon right? Of course Lorn is a demon to, but she was a major human hating killing machine, I find it hard to believe that she would just up and want to behave. But then again having Fred's memories may have done something? Maybe Fred's soul somehow, when consumed, left an imprint on Illyria? When she played back Fred's dying words to Wes, it was just gut wrenching, like wow. I wonder how the rest of the gang will take it, hearing that she wants to "abide" and "learn to walk in this world" it will be nearly unbearable to see Fred all the time but not Fred.. And seeing more Fred flashbacks really pulls at the old heart strings.. I think Fred was just one of those characters that you don't even realize how much you love till they are gone.
Wes and his fits of stress related insanity, and Gun's insecurities, make me thing that while this season is about corruption, it is also about human weakness. Without human weakness corruption would have no foot hold, and it is starting to show. Both guys are just torn up, and there was this scene of Angel, Spike, and Harm that looked like a new fang gang core group scene, and notice they are all vampires.. While the vampires suffered corruption this season it was different, they all came out of it and now are strong and all fighting for good, but the humans are the ones "consumed" and majorly damaged. That just struck me as odd.
Anyways this arc is really interesting, and I can't wait for the next episode, I think there is one more before the break right? cause they didn't show a trailer for next week here, I sure hope there is one more.. ack! Now I am worried and have to go check..
Ciao all
~ Faithy
Big Bad
I Kill Slayers For Fun
This was a very good episode. I feel kinda weird about this, but I have to say/share this. While I was watching this episode I was very attentive and pretty much sadden by the way it was being feed to us over and over again in the episode that Fred was not coming back. So pretty much what I'm trying to say was that my attitude was either sad or just really surprised (taken back) by what I saw. This was how I felt during the whole episode.....except for one scene. It was right after Angel gave his speech to Illyria about protecting the humans. For some strange reason, when Wesley shot Knox....I immediately smiled and bursted into a series of laughter and giggles. But as soon as Angel said "didn't you listen to what I just said" I became sad again, and pretty much stayed that way for the rest of the show. I dunno, maybe I'm just feeling guilty about feeling a moment of "Perfect Happiness" when it was such a sad episode for me.
Aside, from ::devil:: Big Bad's ::devil:: weird experience, I still think today's episode was pretty good. I feel really sad for Gunn (as I'm sure many other are as well), now he's kinda in the same place Wes was during season 4. Hopefully, the AI team will be forgiving and undertsandable to Gunn and to the bad choice he made. Plus, Spike's news about him wanting to stay and fight since he felt like "something was coming" has me at least satisfied to know that Spike will be around for a little bit longer (I'm a Spike fan and all, but Wes shoting Knox mad me happier than Spike saying he wanted to stay...........weird!!!)
Also, I'm looking very forward toward the development of Illyria's character. Not to sure if she can be fully reformed or stick to that 'no-killing' plan, but it will be interesting to see. Watching Illyria fight, for some strange reason I kept finding myself asking the same question over and over again in my head, "Illyria vs Glory....who'd win????" I think that would be an interesting fight, although I'm really unsure of the outcome since I don't know if Illyria's performance today was an indication of her full potential or just a small fraction of it.
Anyway, I'm going to wait for the next episode (which I think doesn't air til April?) and see how things turn out. In the mean time I'm gonna get FF-XI and create a Spike character to hold me off til the next episode airs. Hopefully it will be enough to keep my sanity going.
Aside, from ::devil:: Big Bad's ::devil:: weird experience, I still think today's episode was pretty good. I feel really sad for Gunn (as I'm sure many other are as well), now he's kinda in the same place Wes was during season 4. Hopefully, the AI team will be forgiving and undertsandable to Gunn and to the bad choice he made. Plus, Spike's news about him wanting to stay and fight since he felt like "something was coming" has me at least satisfied to know that Spike will be around for a little bit longer (I'm a Spike fan and all, but Wes shoting Knox mad me happier than Spike saying he wanted to stay...........weird!!!)
Also, I'm looking very forward toward the development of Illyria's character. Not to sure if she can be fully reformed or stick to that 'no-killing' plan, but it will be interesting to see. Watching Illyria fight, for some strange reason I kept finding myself asking the same question over and over again in my head, "Illyria vs Glory....who'd win????" I think that would be an interesting fight, although I'm really unsure of the outcome since I don't know if Illyria's performance today was an indication of her full potential or just a small fraction of it.
Anyway, I'm going to wait for the next episode (which I think doesn't air til April?) and see how things turn out. In the mean time I'm gonna get FF-XI and create a Spike character to hold me off til the next episode airs. Hopefully it will be enough to keep my sanity going.
Zer Decker
Townie
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2004
- Messages
- 1
Illyria Purpose
I never post before; I always read the posts over here. You are a very nice gang. I start seeing Angel since the beginning; then start seeing Buffy because I liked the emotional deepness of the former. I still like ATS more that BTVS for that reason.
The only thing I wanted to say (and provided that I don't like spoilers) is that I imagine that the major purpose of this Illyria story Arc is to have a god-strenght Ally to fight the (first-time-mentioned as entities) "Senior Partners" -The Wolf, Ram and Hart-
It strike me as logic as the series has to wrap up this season, and there has to be a final showdown between the good ones and the evil ones, the apparently last ones in the Jossverse.
I'm sad Fred is gone but still, a god is a better fighter than a simple mortal, and fighters they will need at the end. Besides, Science has no place in the Jossverse (it is exactly the opposite of what it is in reality: mith has taken its place. But in this series universe, its done so well that I suspended my disbelief from the beginning and enjoy the ride a lot!)
I never post before; I always read the posts over here. You are a very nice gang. I start seeing Angel since the beginning; then start seeing Buffy because I liked the emotional deepness of the former. I still like ATS more that BTVS for that reason.
The only thing I wanted to say (and provided that I don't like spoilers) is that I imagine that the major purpose of this Illyria story Arc is to have a god-strenght Ally to fight the (first-time-mentioned as entities) "Senior Partners" -The Wolf, Ram and Hart-
It strike me as logic as the series has to wrap up this season, and there has to be a final showdown between the good ones and the evil ones, the apparently last ones in the Jossverse.
I'm sad Fred is gone but still, a god is a better fighter than a simple mortal, and fighters they will need at the end. Besides, Science has no place in the Jossverse (it is exactly the opposite of what it is in reality: mith has taken its place. But in this series universe, its done so well that I suspended my disbelief from the beginning and enjoy the ride a lot!)