Discussion of 5.16 "Shells" (WB-US) - Airing 3/3/04

[Primal Slayer]

This episode was good ofcourse, felt so sad for Fred actually being dead 🙁 but wow I wouldnt trust any one in the fang gang since they have a tendacy of trying to kill each other...

 

[DarkNova]

why did wes stab gunn? i know wes' reasons and all but they don't make it a big deal or anything so unless it comes up later it would have made the same amount of sence to just punch him really hard. Also did anyone else feel like Illyria was close to tears in the end with wesley?

 

[KarrinMurphy]

Hey--I'm new here...actually, I signed up specifically because I needed desperately to comment on this episode. To make a terrible pun, I'm, well, "shell"-shocked. :\ I've been watching "Buffy" since season two, and "Angel" since it premiered, and I have never cried so hard at any episode ever. "Shells," I think, was the most exquisitely painful episode that Joss & Co. have ever created...and for that reason, I kind of think Fred won't be coming back. For one thing, that phrase was repeated enough friggin' times that we were very much intended to "get it"--then again, I suppose that could just be to lead us off the track...heh. Ah, the joy of the Jossverse. No idea what'll happen next. I kind of hope Fred does come back. The whole bit about her soul being destroyed absolutely killed me. Throughout both shows, and especially since Buffy came back from the dead, it's just been a given that the soul is separate, and that it goes somewhere after the body is gone. The idea that Fred's soul was destroyed makes hers easily the hardest death to deal with, I think. Anyway, sorry about this rambling post. Maybe when I stop crying I'll be able to think more clearly *sniffle*

I know they made a point of saying her soul was burnt up in the fires of ressurection but isn't a soul immortal ? And wasn't it the evil doctor that said it ? Spike should know better. He was burnt to a crisp but he " got over it"

And there were some hopeful moments.

S: Long day. [sniffs] That offer still good? Send me abroad, roving agent and all?

A: Yeah, it's still good.

S: Great. [sighs] Maybe we should send Gunn... before Wes has another poke.

A: You're not leaving?
[Angel's expression was not unhappy that Spike might stay. IMHO. Maybe some grandsirey love for Spike afterall. And I mean that in a non-slasherish way. :LOL: ]

S: It's what she would have wanted. [sighs, pause then looks at Angel with sudden realization...] It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important. What's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. Least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin, Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger that Illyria. Things are gona get ugly. That's where I live.

So Spike knows where he belongs. At least for now. It's better than how Gunn feels...or Lorne...or Harmoney...or Angel...or Wes... OR ILLYRIA. All displaced persons.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

Lol

I always watch Angel pre-recorded, so I can pause if I want. Normally, I wouldn't make a post after having only seen the show intro/teaser, but this time, I've got to say
L - O - L ::rolf::
It's just there was so much discussion last week about Wesley and what to do in the event that your loved one gets turned into a demon from hell. Now it seems clear--Wesley was merely waiting to see if there was anything of Fred let. And the writers were only waiting till next episode because they didn't want to end the ep with Wes trying to chop off her head.

Of course, I'm sure the head chopping's not going to go the way Wes wants it to since, if he were able to chop off her head, it would make for a rather anticlimactic episode.

Anyhoo, back to the ep. 🙂

 

[No I am Doyle]

Hey, I have been reading alot of people's comments about how they wanted a change for Fred's character, and now they have it. Ilyria is definitely a new and interesting development. And why not let her/it become good, at least then it won't be the same thing that happened w/ Cordy. I believe that Fred is really gone for good. The resurrection consumed all that was Fred (now and forevermore) and that is something that is sad, but Amy Acker is STILL on the show, just as a new character. ::bbat::

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

They were all just empty shells...

At the very end of the ep, that was how it was: They were all emotionally drained, even the "big bad". All just empty shells.

I mean, an innocent life was at steak

You misspelled `stake' just like Andrew did. It's kinda makin' me hungry. 🙂

---------

For some strange reason, when Wesley shot Knox....I immediately smiled and bursted into a series of laughter and giggles. But as soon as Angel said "didn't you listen to what I just said" I became sad again, and pretty much stayed that way for the rest of the show. I dunno, maybe I'm just feeling guilty about feeling a moment of "Perfect Happiness" when it was such a sad episode for me.

Good.

For me the experience was slightly different. When Knox got shot, my immediate reaction was mild surprise, followed by a wry, "it figures" sort of thought when I saw who had the gun. It was disheartening because it totally destroyed everything Angel was trying to say. Then Angel said, "were you even listening?" and, all of a sudden, it was a funny moment.

-----Wesley's actions during the episode------

[Wesley] is a odd mixture of innocence and ruthlessness. He is willing to believe in truth and justice while taking measures into his own hands out of rage and grief. I always thought that actions that hurt other people motivated by real human emotions were somehow purer than those based on pragmatic concerns. Now I'm not so sure. I don't understand why I am repulsed by Wesley now, but could sympathize with him last season. He's not more corrupt (I know that this is arguable) and to me he seems a little sheltered and naive. He has justifiable reasons for some of his behavior except for stabbing Gunn.

(emphasis mine)
Please note that bad things can also be pure. 🙂 We can have 100% pure arsenic, for example, or we can have someone/thing that's "pure" evil (at least in a story). Please also note that belief systems that feature revenge as a major component are invariably much bloodier than those that favor tolerance. Just look at the Godfather trilogy. (Good movies! Screwed up belief systems.)

IMHO, Everything Wesley did (shooting Knox, stabbing Gunn, "befriending" Illyria made sense. All of it made sense. None of it was justified. Wesley even admits to this himself. He's neat like that. Most people would just rationalize it away, but not him. He admits that he did these things (I know, he was only specifically referring to shooting Knox, but I think it applies to all of the above) because he was weak. When he says he shot Knox because Knox murdered Fred, this is not justification, this is merely explanation.
-----------
And Wesley's befriending of Illyria is also done at least partly out of weakness, and it left me feeling so weird, I almost got goosebumps. I think that might have been a good time for the weird-strange off-key incindental music from last season when Connor and Cordy were daddy and mommy.

What I'm saying is: the Wesley-Illyria thing was almost equally twisted. He's basically hangin' out with the animated cadaver of his dead girlfriend because she's there. I mean. Damn. If that's not twisted, what is? Plus, it's probably torture for him too. Because, apart from a few memory fragments, she's not really there. And every second he's with her reminds him of that.
-----------
And about Illyria there at the end: She did not make any sort of promise to become good. I can't really see that particular being ever becoming good the way we typically think of it. OTOH, I'm not sure if she's evil in the same way we usually think of it either. Or at least--she's definitely not a typical demon. Not even a typical "big bad". Rather, she's a disposessed queen that now has to make her way in a strange, and bizzare world. ... (wait a 'sec, a thought is forming in my head)

Uh, that is unless it's all a trick. 🙂 Hey, go for the power, and exploit the weakness, baby. Right now, W&H is the power, and Wesley could very well be the weakness. 🙂

Whatever. Either way, Amy's still a cast member.

-----------

About Fred's soul, do you think that the doctor was lying? He had no reason to tell the truth, and maybe he thought that if the group believed that they can never save Fred they would stop trying.

IMHO, all of you that are concerned about whether or not Fred's soul is really destroyed have fallen for the bait. Whether or not Fred's soul is really destroyed is irrelevant when considering the question, "will Fred come back?" because this is a story not reality. (True having Fred's soul be burned up would make it more difficult, but not impossible. And as you already pointed out, the doctor may be lying.)

The writer's can side-step the no-soul problem and bring Fred back in any number of ways. In fact, an example has already been presented in Shells. At the very end, they bring Fred back (briefly) through the classic mechanism of flashback. Just so they can make the anguish of her death that much more bitter.

Now as to the real question: Will they bring Fred back? I think possibly they won't because it would lessen the impact of her death. OTOH, I also think a Fred comeback might be a nice series closer. (Since this is almost certainly their last season.) Basically, it's just really difficult to tell.

Regardless, I think we'll be seeing Illyria for several eps into the future, and it's something I'm looking forward to very muchly. 😀

 

[poptart]

This was a very good episode. I feel kinda weird about this, but I have to say/share this. While I was watching this episode I was very attentive and pretty much sadden by the way it was being feed to us over and over again in the episode that Fred was not coming back. So pretty much what I'm trying to say was that my attitude was either sad or just really surprised (taken back) by what I saw. This was how I felt during the whole episode.....except for one scene. It was right after Angel gave his speech to Illyria about protecting the humans. For some strange reason, when Wesley shot Knox....I immediately smiled and bursted into a series of laughter and giggles. But as soon as Angel said "didn't you listen to what I just said" I became sad again, and pretty much stayed that way for the rest of the show. I dunno, maybe I'm just feeling guilty about feeling a moment of "Perfect Happiness" when it was such a sad episode for me.

Aside, from ::devil:: Big Bad's ::devil:: weird experience, I still think today's episode was pretty good. I feel really sad for Gunn (as I'm sure many other are as well), now he's kinda in the same place Wes was during season 4. Hopefully, the AI team will be forgiving and undertsandable to Gunn and to the bad choice he made. Plus, Spike's news about him wanting to stay and fight since he felt like "something was coming" has me at least satisfied to know that Spike will be around for a little bit longer (I'm a Spike fan and all, but Wes shoting Knox mad me happier than Spike saying he wanted to stay...........weird!!!)

Also, I'm looking very forward toward the development of Illyria's character. Not to sure if she can be fully reformed or stick to that 'no-killing' plan, but it will be interesting to see. Watching Illyria fight, for some strange reason I kept finding myself asking the same question over and over again in my head, "Illyria vs Glory....who'd win????" I think that would be an interesting fight, although I'm really unsure of the outcome since I don't know if Illyria's performance today was an indication of her full potential or just a small fraction of it.

Anyway, I'm going to wait for the next episode (which I think doesn't air til April?) and see how things turn out. In the mean time I'm gonna get FF-XI and create a Spike character to hold me off til the next episode airs. Hopefully it will be enough to keep my sanity going.

i have to agree, i am not going to give my version cause everyone pretty much summed it up. i just am confused over the whole fred thing. but it did a great job of making me really want to see the next epp

great eppy, two thumbs up. 🙂



and it did sorta seem like t2 with the whole you cant kill speech

 

[Magui]

The Ratings for the exciting Angel episode of last night remained nearly on the same level as last week.

At 9 p.m., NBC's older-skewing West Wing dipped to second in the overnights behind Kingdom Hospital with a 9.9/14 followed by CBS comedies King of Queens and a repeat of Everybody Loves Raymond (7.9/11 each), Fox's The O.C. (7.1/10), the WB's soon-to-conclude Angel (3.8/ 5) and a repeat of America's Next Top Model on UPN (2.7/ 4). First in the hour among adults 18-49 was Steven King's Kingdom Hospital (5.7/14) followed by The O.C. (4.8/12), King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond (4.5/11 each), The West Wing (4.0/10), Angel (1.8/ 4) and the repeat of America's Next Top Model (1.3/ 3).

Source: MediaWeek

 

[LazyDolphin]

Amy Acker is amazing. Jaw-droppingly, tour-de-force-ingly amazing. I've always admired her take on Fred, but having never seen her in anything else I just assumed she was playing an extension of her own personality and (much like Alyson Hannigan) all of her characters would be informed by her idosyncratic speech-patterns. Boy, was I wrong! Rock on, Amy Acker!

 

[slayerpower]

This was a great episode, better than last week's! Fred death didn't really hit home until this episode. Hope they bring her back in the finale. Amy did a great job of portraying Illyria, she was kinda cool. I liked Spike's and Angel's interaction during this episode. Wes turned dark! I feel bad for Gunn. I started crying at the end. Having the last scene be the start of Fred's journey was definitely the way to make me cry.

 

[Blackarachnia]

First of all, killing Fred for good - her sould consumed into the new Fred/Illyiria hybrid - that is why we love Joss. He isn't afraid to kill of a major character - not because her contract is up but for story reasons. My grief is still so fresh but at the same time, I love what he does and I also hate it. And that is why Illyria has haunted my dreams and I have cried over fred's death so many times.

Not as gripping or as emotional as AHIW but I really enjoyed it and surprisingly, Angel had the funniest lines.

I think that Fred mixed with Illyria and now she is both and that is why she was so confused at the end. She's never felt human emotions before and now she is and can't understand them or her place in our world. I hated hearing that Fred's soul was consumed but that may mean she will come out more and more in Illyria.

Joss said at the beginning of the season that Fred was going to become much more like a slayer, like Buffy. If she is able to assert herself, Illyria could be a major ally. If there is still a huge battle coming, and Spike can't be wrong, then they will need her.

I think that Wes may have to break away from them again. If he is going to be living with Illyria and teaching her morality, that may not be something the fang gang can accept.

Over a month until we get to see the final 6. That sucks. But the anticipation will be devilishly delicious.

According to the WB:
"Angel will be taking a short break, but will be returning April 14 with 6 all-new episodes through the end of the season!"

What hypocrites. Just say it - the end of the series, the *******s!!!

 

[nerd4hire]

So true, what Lazy D said about Amy Acker. Amy Acker for the Emmy.

And what Wyrd Demon Hunter said about Wesly - also, so true. Wesley off center is just a little more interesting.

 

[Blackarachnia]

So true, what Lazy D said about Amy Acker. Amy Acker for the Emmy.

And what Wyrd Demon Hunter said about Wesly - also, so true. Wesley off center is just a little more interesting.

Ditto on both points. I started adding up what Wes had gone through and he has really been through the most. Tortured by Faith, betrayed by a fake prophecy, throat cut, almost smothered, friends abandon him, dates a woman he doesn't love but who helps him punish himself, loses Fred to Gunn, cuts off Lilah's head, finally gets Fred and then loses her.

Who can blame him for embracing the chance to be with Illyria. And I think that Fred is a major part of her - their souls or essences mixed. And now Fred is super powerful and is learning to be a good force in the world. Super cool. And Joss did say in an interview at the beginning of the season that Fred was going to become a lot more like Buffy, like a slayer. And now she is.

Really, over time, I love the ep more and more. :: party : :: party :

 

[Werewolf@Night]

I was so dissapointed with this episode. I expected so-o-o much more. A better fight, better yelling, and better stabing-your-friend-fun. But instead we got a mediocore episode. It was still enjoyable I just thought DeKnight wanted more and could've down more to this episode.

The thing that pisses me off is that Illyria is a combine of all the female big bads we have met, Evil Cordy, Darth Rosenburg, and Glory. She is like Glory because of the "emotion" thing, seems exactly like Weight of The World except Wesley is Dawn. She is like Darth Rosenburg because of the whole evil magic person with the whole "I slow time" shtick she does. She is like Evil Cordy cuz she is possesed.

I wanted Wesley to go all "Loyalty" on Gunn, and start to kill him in the bed. Grabing a pillow and trying to suffocate him like Angel did. It would break that small music bit in the end, was that the Dixie Chicks?

Knox is a peeping tom with the whole bit about fastinating over Illyria, and the whole bit about oogling at her pictures and his mom thought he was looking at porn. I'm glad he's dead just for that small "joke"

I liked Spike in this episode for like the first time this whole season. Gunn suprised me and I like this turns. I hated how they let Illyria live, and she is just roaming around and happens to find Wesley. Shouldn't Wolfram & Hart be more up tight? Whatever.

7.5/10

 

[Am_I_Evil]

i can't believe more people aren't discussing the whole Giles thing.....

the fact that because Angel is in charge of the L.A. branch of Wolfram & Hart he won't help and innocent girl who has been taken over by an old one....

i'm pretty sure that, no matter what, Giles wouldn't want to let an old one have free reign....something doesn't seem right with that....

 

[Mandy C]

IMHO, all of you that are concerned about whether or not Fred's soul is really destroyed have fallen for the bait. Whether or not Fred's soul is really destroyed is irrelevant when considering the question, "will Fred come back?" because this is a story not reality. (True having Fred's soul be burned up would make it more difficult, but not impossible. And as you already pointed out, the doctor may be lying.)

I'm not sure that "Will Fred come back?" is the main motivator behind a lot of people (at least the, um, two that I've talked to, haha) wondering about the destruction of Fred's soul. I don't think she will come back, nor do I think she necessarily should--though it would be a nice wrap-up to the series, as you said, it would also really ruin the beauty and the power of these last two episodes.

That said--I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "gone," the same idea that every character in this episode had a hard time with (notice how many times they said it? Roughly 10,000.) In the Buffyverse, we've never really had to contend with "gone," because it's been made quite clear that the soul and body are separate, that the soul goes to heaven (or hell, but I think we're all on the same page as far as where Fred would go.) Even the death of a beloved character like Tara, a character that never reappeared after her sudden death--there was some comfort to be offered in the idea that she, too, would be hanging out in the same lovely, warm place that Buffy went to. Ditto Cordelia--yes, she was in a coma and then died, but she came back to say goodbye! Characters in the Buffyverse are pretty well-assured of an afterlife, which is nice and neat. With Fred, that is simply not the case. To think that, as the Wesley and the good doctor put it, "everything she was is gone, forever"--it's a kind of ending that we've never had to deal with on "Buffy" or "Angel," shows filled with stories of resurrection and contacting the dead and vampires and heaven as a warm, comforting place to spend eternity. I think the idea that Fred, this person who is good and kind, has been utterly destroyed makes people uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable.

And yes, I understand that these are TV characters, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with on an emotional level, because it goes to the core of what humans are about. We are all creatures walking the pathway to death, something completely mysterious and unknown. Death on these two shows has never had to mean anything, because there are magic spells to bring people back, not to mention the PTB and the Senior Partners. Now we're forced to actually deal with the fact that she is, as everyone kept saying, "gone," something that those of us without the luxury of magic have to deal with and, in many cases, haven't. Fantasy shows are really supposed to be an escape, and despite their many parallels with reality, the basic mythology of these shows has always kept them escapist to a certain extent. These two episodes go to the root of that mythology and turn it upside-down: the soul can be destroyed, there is a real and permanent death. Here now are echoes of the uncertainty of death in the real world. Is the doctor lying? Maybe. Probably not. And now we get to watch the characters deal with the repercussions of what they believe to be a permanent loss.

Basically, ouch.

Anyway that's just my two cents...I'm probably way off base.

And hey--Amy Acker kicked that part's ass (Can I say that here?) She was awesome.

 

[Spikesgurl235]

Really great episode! Of course I cried at the end(when don't I cry watching angel and Buffy). The whole Fred being gone thing is really getting to me...it's sooo sad ::crying2: And does anyone know the artist and title of the song that was playing at the very end of the episode when they were showing everyone and how sad they were?

 

[Blackarachnia]

Really great episode! Of course I cried at the end(when don't I cry watching angel and Buffy). The whole Fred being gone thing is really getting to me...it's sooo sad ::crying2: And does anyone know the artist and title of the song that was playing at the very end of the episode when they were showing everyone and how sad they were?

I do. It is
A Place Called Home
by Kim Richey

Well, it's not hard to see
Anyone who looks at me
Knows I am just a rolling stone
Never landing anyplace to call my own
To call my own

Well, it seems like so long ago
But it really ain't you know
I started out a crazy kid
Miracle I made it through the things I did
The things I did

Someday I'll go where there ain't no rain or snow
"˜Til then, I travel alone
And I make my bed with the stars above my head
And dream of a place called home

I had a chance to settle down
Get a job and live in town
Work in some old factory
I never liked the foreman standing over me
Over me

Oh I'd rather walk a winding road
Rather know the things I know
See the world with my own eyes
No regrets, no looking back, no goodbyes
No goodbyes

Someday I'll go where there ain't no rain or snow
"˜Til then, I travel alone
And I make my bed with the stars above my head
And I dream of a place called home

And I cried and cried and am still finding myself tearing up during the day when I hear her say "Why can't I stay?" But I am also so excited about what Amy can do with this new Illyria/Fred hybrid.

 

[Willow03]

wow, i don't even know what to say about this episode. I really was hoping that Fred would be saved but it doesn't look like that is going to happen...🙁

ok, when Wes stabbed Gunn, that was a shock and i felt soo bad for Gunn, he feels so bad for what he did, and that scene w/ him crying in bed, yeah i got a little teary too...

i feel soo bad for Wes, i can't even imagine this for him...but i'm so mad that he agreed to help Illyria blend into the world, i still think they should kill her..i dont' feel bad for her at all!

I'm so glad that Spike and Angel are kinda sorta getting along, i love all the scenes w/ them together!
So is there no episode next week? I didn't see any previews..

 

[FaithsTruCallin]

What are you guys all talking about saying that Illyria is an evil, human killing, yata, yata, yata? Do you remember her even touching a human? She punched Harmony across a room, and threw Angel out a window... If she was an evil "Old One", she could have killed everyone in W&H, kinda like The Beast. I don't think that she wants to kill all the humans, just doesn't like that we rule the world, so she was going to try and take it back for her and her kind to rule.

And Fred, I am sorry, IS DEAD! Like Joss said after "The Body" when everyone thought Dawn would bring Joyce back... Did you watch the same episode I watched? Although I do like the idea that Illyria completly turns into Fred, and Fred is the all powerful old one. WOOOO! that would kick!