Discussion of 5.16 "Shells" (WB-US) - Airing 3/3/04

I felt so sorry for Wesley in that Epidode. They were so perfect together! I was crying so hard. I was depressed for the next three days.
 
Hitome said:
I wonder if Wesley is one of the writers'/producers' favorite characters. He certainly is great.
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He certainly is...*stares off into the distance...*

Hitome said:
Can you imagine Wesley in blue makeup scary.
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Anyone else picturing Wes as a transvestite?...Just me?...Oh...well then.....*shudders*
 
xtrustno1x said:
He certainly is...*stares off into the distance...*


?...Just me?...Oh...well then.....*shudders*
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TRANSVESTITE?! lol why transy.... cause he would make one UGLY woman ::thumb::
 
I don't know about Wes being a transvestite....anyhoo...

In October, Joss did an interview in which he said that by the end of the season, Fred would be much more like Buffy. I didn't think too much about ituntil I had an epiphany.

Buffy and all slayers have demon infused in them. It gives them strength and all their physical stuff but also helps them to strategize, etc.

And now Fred is mixed with the essence of Illyria, a demon. This comment really makes me sure that Fred is not gone; we will see mre and more of her in the next and possibly, final 6 eps.

And I cried for Fred's death and walked around in a daze for days but blaming Illyria for doing what she did is like blaming a shark for eating its prey. The ones to blame are Knox and Gunn and in a way, even Fred. She should have had a hasmat suit on; she should have known better.

So, as I grieve Fred, I also celebrate the new hybrid Fred/Illyria.
 
Even though she didn't know she'd be killing a human in regaining power, I'd think she's the type to stop at nothing to get her way, seeing that she did want to rule the world.

This whole thing can go two ways. First, it can bring Fred back by some crazy storyline, as most series tend to bring back characters. Second, Illyria will always be; Fred is gone forever. Although this sounds impossible, if they do bring Fred back, I'm hoping that she somehow keeps some of Illyria's powers, or somehow becomes stronger, as Joss had hinted about her being more like Buffy; I'd think he'd want her on the good side as being Buffy-like. That's just my crazy thought on it, of course.
 
Kathleen said:
Even though she didn't know she'd be killing a human in regaining power, I'd think she's the type to stop at nothing to get her way, seeing that she did want to rule the world.

This whole thing can go two ways. First, it can bring Fred back by some crazy storyline, as most series tend to bring back characters. Second, Illyria will always be; Fred is gone forever. Although this sounds impossible, if they do bring Fred back, I'm hoping that she somehow keeps some of Illyria's powers, or somehow becomes stronger, as Joss had hinted about her being more like Buffy; I'd think he'd want her on the good side as being Buffy-like. That's just my crazy thought on it, of course.
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I agree. With Joss, I think you can count on this change being permanent. If we do get another season (still in denial), I don't think the old Fred will ever come back. That is why they stressed it so much; Fred is gone forever. And Joss does things like that whereas other more mainstream shows are too afraid to kill off a character or make a major change unless the actor wants to leave the show. Which, again, is why, the WB is so horrible to rob us of some of the only truly original story telling left on TV.
 
How long has Joss had this planned?

A friend at another forum made this discovery in the transcript for Angel 4:20 "Sacrifice"

There have been lines left out but all the important ones are here:

FRED
(irritated) That the world we're fighting for? The right to be heartless, an uncaring shell? To be dead inside?
FRED
You're right about all of it except for one thing. What we did, I felt it. Every bit of it. And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside.
FRED
Well, I don't know about you, but... I'd take that over being a shell any day

Joss is truly an evil man but I love him for it!!!!
 
It'll be very intersting to see how Illyria copes with living in a world filled with humans. I actually felt sorry for her when she discovered her kingdom was long gone. In a very small way she somewhat reminded me of Anya when she ceased being Anyanka and had to learn to live her life as a human, and start to deal with emotions etc Ok so she was only small fry in relation to Illyria being an 'old one' but they are both demons having to live in our world. Illyria has no-one other than Wesley to teach her all that she needs to know to cope with the world and all that is in it. She chose to learn to live amongst us, when with all the power she possesses she could surely have gathered up some other 'demon type forces' and tried to destroy mankind.
 
Cordelia said:
It'll be very intersting to see how Illyria copes with living in a world filled with humans. I actually felt sorry for her when she discovered her kingdom was long gone. In a very small way she somewhat reminded me of Anya when she ceased being Anyanka and had to learn to live her life as a human,
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Good point.
The Illyria scene reminded me of Eldrad from the Doctor Who ep The Hand Of Fear. There's a hologram of a long dead leader saying, "And so, you are king, Eldrad, as was your wish. I salute you from the grave. Hail Eldrad. King.... of nothing."

But Eldrad's not like Illyria. He immediately decides his best course of action is to go back to Earth and enslave the humans.

Cordelia said:
Illyria has no-one other than Wesley to teach her all that she needs to know to cope with the world and all that is in it.
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Actually, this may not be entirely true. And, if it were false, it would only strengthen your arguement. True, there are very few Illyria follows left, but she would only need a few.

'Course, then again, Wesley killed her Qua-Hazon (sp) and Spike tortured the doctor mercilously. The doctor may or may not be dead by this point. That removes the two Illyria followers we know of, and Knox said their few and far between.
 
Speaking of stuff from Shells that reminds one of other stuff, I couldn't help thinking of Shelly's Ozymandias when I saw Illyria's temple in ruins.

What the heck, I'll post it, just so you see what I mean:

Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert ... Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works ye mighty and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

-- Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Blackarachnia said:
I don't know about Wes being a transvestite....anyhoo...

In October, Joss did an interview in which he said that by the end of the season, Fred would be much more like Buffy. I didn't think too much about ituntil I had an epiphany.

Buffy and all slayers have demon infused in them. It gives them strength and all their physical stuff but also helps them to strategize, etc.

And now Fred is mixed with the essence of Illyria, a demon. This comment really makes me sure that Fred is not gone; we will see mre and more of her in the next and possibly, final 6 eps.

And I cried for Fred's death and walked around in a daze for days but blaming Illyria for doing what she did is like blaming a shark for eating its prey. The ones to blame are Knox and Gunn and in a way, even Fred. She should have had a hasmat suit on; she should have known better.

So, as I grieve Fred, I also celebrate the new hybrid Fred/Illyria.
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I agree with everything you said. I completely blame Knox and Gunn for it. Illyria didn't know better, but I still don't like her. Every bone in me hopes Fred returns, but I'm afraid she won't. If she does, I know Wesley will be so happy, and I will be to. I love Fred and Wes together. They are/were my favorite couple.

I, also, was in a complete daze for days after Shells. I missed A Hole in the World, however, so my friend printed a transcript out for me and it makes me so sad. I can't believe she's gone, but part of me says she's coming back. Even so, I'm still writing Fred/Wes romances in Writer's Den.
 
B
Blackarachnia
Very intelligent - BA
"She had a warmth that took you in and held you, until everything cold and distant melted away. She was the most beautiful, perfect woman I ever met." Now, I hate Knox, but that really got to me. Great description of Fred.

Poor, poor Fred... I can't believe her soul was "consumed by the fires of resurrection." A fate worse than death. It just makes this whole situation even more depressing. Speaking of the depressing, the last montage was just heartbreaking. It was the first time I cried since Fred's actual death. Wes packing her things... Fiegenbaum... and then they had to throw that flashback in there just to make it all the more painful. I was just getting used to Illyria, and then they slash open the wound anew. :: broken I almost started to feel bad for Illyria, but in the end I'll never be able to like her because she's there instead of Fred. I just want Fred back! ::crying::

Has anyone else been listening to the Dixie Chicks obsessively as of late? 'cause I know I sure have
 
BlueEyedVampire said:
I agree with everything you said. I completely blame Knox and Gunn for it. Illyria didn't know better, but I still don't like her. Every bone in me hopes Fred returns, but I'm afraid she won't. If she does, I know Wesley will be so happy, and I will be to. I love Fred and Wes together. They are/were my favorite couple.

I, also, was in a complete daze for days after Shells. I missed A Hole in the World, however, so my friend printed a transcript out for me and it makes me so sad. I can't believe she's gone, but part of me says she's coming back. Even so, I'm still writing Fred/Wes romances in Writer's Den.
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You have to see A Hole in the World. It was so emotionally moving and I felt like a friend of mine had died. And I do think Fred will be back but as a part of Illyria. I share your pain and even cried for days - sometimes for no reason - over her death. But now we have the Fred/Illyria hybrid. At least we still have Amy - not like when Tara died. and it is Joss' willingness to torture us like this that makes us love him and hate him. Would ER do something like this?
 
I think amy did was wel playing llyria 🙂 i liked this eppie.. it wasnt the best but then again this season of angel has kinda fallen short of my expectations 🙁 bt i did like this eppie and i like the fact wesley is gona help her.. i dont know why exactly lol
 
Hitome said:
About Fred's soul, do you think that the doctor was lying? He had no reason to tell the truth, and maybe he thought that if the group believed that they can never save Fred they would stop trying. Besides he enjoyed causing pain and that was the way he could hurt Gunn the most.
.
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The doctor is just a (bad) man playing his part in something bigger than he. He had no real reason to lie about the destruction of Fred's soul, and didn't even change his tune as Spike pummeled him for information. They didn't show it, but Spike did say he got nothing but "screams and various fluids". The sad fact is that Fred is dead, and NOTHING on heaven or earth will change that (remember Jenny Calender's death, Joss Whedon wanted NO confusion that she may return, so he drove the point home with the snapping of a neck). This is the same situation, Fred's soul being consumed by the fires of resurrection is the ultimate cracking neck. We will just have to see what is left behind of the character so many of us have grown to love over the last few seasons, in the final six episodes of the show.
R.I.P Winifred Burkle 🙁

Blackarachnia said:
And I cried for Fred's death and walked around in a daze for days but blaming Illyria for doing what she did is like blaming a shark for eating its prey. The ones to blame are Knox and Gunn and in a way, even Fred. She should have had a hasmat suit on; she should have known better.
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It was truly sad to hear Wes say to Harmony, "She was just curious. I think I hate her a little for that."
The one thing I have always respected about the two shows is that the writers have never been afraid to kill off key characters, for reasons of story and not because of the departure of an actor/actress. There have been many sad deaths in the wild world of Buffy. Jenny, Joyce (the ONLY natural death to date), Tara, my namesake Doyle, Anya, Buffy (twice and waiting for a third, probably when mysticism is stripped from the world for 200+ years), but the two that really got me were the two most recent names scolled on the wall; Cordelia Chase and Winifred Burkle. Your welcome was one of the best episodes of Angel since the short lived days of Doyle, Angel, and Cordelia; if not only because it capture the feel of the first half of season one(especially with Linday being the known cause of the LA teams troubles once again). The "suprise" ending was enough to move even me (no easy task) and made two of the people watching the show with me cry (and one was a guy).
Fred's death, however, made me realize that the women of the LA team have had it rough, all having been invaded and violated by beings of power (even Harmony-except she was killed in season 3 of Buffy).
( Have any of you noticed the male/female ratio between the main credited characters of the two shows? Buffy's cast was almost completely female w/ the exception of Xander, and Angel is reversed; all male with the exception of Fred/ now Illyria.)

::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat::
 
Here is a question that has been plaguing me.

OK, so if the Sacophogus was spirited out of the Well in a manner possibly involving teleportation since the guardian didn't notice any people entering how did it get stuck in customs?
Wouldn't the magic just move it to Illyria's former temple? Unless that is now the L.A. airport or harbor I'm just not seeing customs.
If it was stuck in customs how would Gunn's signature get it released? If the sarcophogus wasn't claimed Knox could claim it and wouldn't need Gunn. If the U.S. gov impounded it I doubt a lawyer's signature, even that of a highly paid demonic lawyer, could release it.
I know the writers wanted to implicate Gunn, but I'm just not getting the customs bit.


WyrdDemonHunter said:
I know Wes is certainly on of my favorite characters though. 🙂
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Mine too!


WyrdDemonHunter said:
Now we get to see Amy in tight clothing! Yeah!
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::tongue:: I agree with your sentiments. Oh,I definitely agree. (lustful smile)

WyrdDemonHunter said:
I think they chose Fred because she was the least likely to get corrupted by W&H in any conventional way... so they had her get consumed by evil (if Illyria is evil in the normal sense, which remains to be seen) in a non-traditional way. 🙂
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I don't think Illyria is evil. I can't see her subservient to anything including evil.

With Fred gone forever and the group divided, the boys, especially Wesley, can be corrupted in a more traditional ways. I for one would love to see an evil Angel (not Angelus.)
 
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