Discussion of 5.16 "Shells" (WB-US) - Airing 3/3/04

Hitome said:
Here is a question that has been plaguing me.

OK, so if the Sacophogus was spirited out of the Well in a manner possibly involving teleportation since the guardian didn't notice any people entering how did it get stuck in customs?
Wouldn't the magic just move it to Illyria's former temple? Unless that is now the L.A. airport or harbor I'm just not seeing customs.
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I believe the ... nah check that, I'll just fire up the episode and get the exact line
KNOX: I came to L.A. because I knew that's where [Illyria's] kingdom had been. It was supposed to teleport back to the base of its power, but the continents drifts which they do. I had others help me get it here, but then it got stuck in, wouldja believe it, customs. (takes out sheet of paper and unfolds it... holds it up so Gunn can see) But you took care of that. You signed the order to get it into the lab so you could get another brain boost. It's like I said: I'm just one small part of a great machine.

So there ya go. Apparently it teleported to some other place, possibly on a different continent. Now about Gunn getting it out of customs--you're right that does seem a bit far fetched, but let's remember--this is Wolfram & Hart. They've got their fingers in everybody's pies. So it's possible that there was some random corrupt official somewhere that W&H manipulated or influenced in some way. The slip of paper Knox holds up says "Paid" on it.
 
With Fred gone forever and the group divided, the boys, especially Wesley, can be corrupted in a more traditional ways. I for one would love to see an evil Angel (not Angelus.)
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Sigh...I still cannot believe that Fred is gone!!!
 
alvafan said:
Sigh...I still cannot believe that Fred is gone!!!
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Remember how Joss works though...when if he really loves a character, he either kills them or makes their life really...hard. Then again, nobody in the buffyverse *has* to stay dead...I'm just hoping they come up with a creative and attention grabbing way to finish out this season.
 
I'm hoping there will be a twist with Iyilla and Fred, like an alternate reality happens, one where where Fred didn;t die.
 
My best friend and I believe Fred will return on the finale. If not, we'll write fanfics where she does come back. This, I know, wont' happen, but we are hoping that Fred returns and Illyria, somehow, inhabbits Eve! That means, we still have Illyria, but we don't lose Fred.

Some one on here had a good idea. They said maybe they could do a time loop or something and prevent Fred from ever dying in the first place. I like that! I hope they do bring her back. They have to! How can they bring in a new character so late in the series?
 
BlueEyedVampire said:
My best friend and I believe Fred will return on the finale. If not, we'll write fanfics where she does come back. This, I know, wont' happen, but we are hoping that Fred returns and Illyria, somehow, inhabbits Eve! That means, we still have Illyria, but we don't lose Fred.

Some one on here had a good idea. They said maybe they could do a time loop or something and prevent Fred from ever dying in the first place. I like that! I hope they do bring her back. They have to! How can they bring in a new character so late in the series?
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They were expecting to have another season. You realize that if death's not permanent it loses its meaning don't you?
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
They were expecting to have another season. You realize that if death's not permanent it loses its meaning don't you?
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Exactly. And they went out of their way to make it clear that Illyria is stuck in Fred's body. But they will be somehow joined - I am sure of it. Fred is still in there and we will see her but she will never be back the way she was and I'm not sure I want that anymore. She is so cool this way.
 
Blackarachnia said:
Fred is still in there and we will see her but she will never be back the way she was and I'm not sure I want that anymore. She is so cool this way.
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Probably/maybe. In any case, it would be nice if they could just go ahead and have the next episode done and on the air already, wouldn't it? 🙂 Then we wouldn't have to spend so much time speculating on what was to happen we'd just know.

... Just think, there's only 6*42/60=4.2 hrs of Angel left... That's all there will ever be...

I was already expecting that this might be their last season long before the show got axed, but apparently Wheddon and co. weren't. Now that we're here, it's a little sad. 🙁
 
xtrustno1x said:
I'm not sure if I believe (or want to believe) that Fred is dead. It wouldn't surprise me, but it seems kind of...repetitive? The Cordy and Fred storylines seem to parrallel each other. I hope we're spared another female character death. I'm not being very realistic, considering Joss's track record with couples, but I have hope for Fred.
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Actually a great many things this season mirror things which occured last season. There've been discussions of that on other boards. The typical concensus is that this season is adopting as a theme the idea of those not learning from the past being doomed to repeat it. Essentially the mind wipe Angel had performed is comming back to bite everyone in the rear.

Kindred said:
As for Illyria reforming, how do we know that she is motivated by any "good thoughts" at all, as opposed to the desire to survive and look out for herself. The only reason she is "reforming" is so that Wes will help her. If you ask me, this is completely selfishly motivated.
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The only reason Spike did "good" before recently was to impress Buffy. One can learn and grow and perhaps even find redemption without even trying to.

Often times the most profound changes that one experiences, aren't by choice, they just happen. One thing leads to another, motives change and with those motives the people who possess them inevitably change as well. Even if it isn't Illyria's intention to become good it could very well be the end result (...see Spike Angel Faith and Anya for more details).

No said:
The doctor is just a (bad) man playing his part in something bigger than he. He had no real reason to lie about the destruction of Fred's soul...
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He actually has a huge reason. A restoration of Fred would most likely mean the exorcising of Illyria. Essentially, restoring Fred would likely kill his God. That's one whopper of a reason to lie.

WyrdDemonHunter said:
I was already expecting that this might be their last season long before the show got axed, but apparently Wheddon and co. weren't. Now that we're here, it's a little sad.
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Aren't we just a little of ray of melanoma causing sunshine?

All hope isn't lost, there's just been a 99.8% reduction in hope. Long live the 0.2 percent!
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Interesting
B
Blackarachnia
Intelligent and hopeful - BA
(in response to my post)
Happy said:
Aren't we just a little of ray of melanoma causing sunshine?

All hope isn't lost, there's just been a 99.8% reduction in hope. Long live the 0.2 percent!
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::rolf:: LOL

Hey, sorry, what can I say? 🙂 I sorta feel like Andy Kaufman... hope I don't get cancer like he did. 🙁

(and the ray o' sunshine continues)
 
Jacklyn said:
HAPPY!!!! I missed you!!!! Welcome back!!!! And now back to the topic before little miss mod get's in trouble....
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Actually yeah, now that someone else has mentioned it.

It is cool to see you here again, Happy. I only sort of remember you, since I've gone through long periods of no-posting, and didn't start on the board until somewhere in season seven Buffy.

Anyway, I remember some debates that we had where you won, I think. (Like with that "has Angel ever killed a human in the Damage discussion thread.) (Yeah, it's probably simplistic of me to see debates as a contest, but sometimes I do anyway. 🙂 ) It shows stamina on your part--so many people just shrug and say, "whatever" when I challenge them. 🙂

It's cool to see you posting again.
 
Happy said:
Actually a great many things this season mirror things which occured last season. There've been discussions of that on other boards. The typical concensus is that this season is adopting as a theme the idea of those not learning from the past being doomed to repeat it. Essentially the mind wipe Angel had performed is comming back to bite everyone in the rear.
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That's pretty cool. It's almost like they're continuing to resolve the theme of S-4; temptation corrupts. Are they saying corruption is hard to stop, or the Fang Gang hasn't learned their lesson yet.

It's interesting, for a moment Angel was willing to damn the world to get Fred back, much as he corrupted it to get his son's life back in S-4.
 
Exactly - the whole rejection by Andrew/Giles et al of Angel and Co because of their association with W&H...it's about Angel & Co realizing what they're really doing.
 
B
Blackarachnia
Love your comments and your sig - BA
Buffy Summers said:
Exactly - the whole rejection by Andrew/Giles et al of Angel and Co because of their association with W&H...it's about Angel & Co realizing what they're really doing.
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Exactly...again. And Joss has said that the final ep will be about what W&H are really up to and why they brought the Fang Gang aboard in the first place. But one more week until it comes back on the WB may actually kill me. What will I do when its gone forever.....
::dead:: ::dead:: ::dead::
 
::wave::

Jacklyn said:
HAPPY!!!! I missed you!!!! Welcome back!!!! And now back to the topic before little miss mod get's in trouble....
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Missed you too. Good to be back. I had some stuff going on and was pretty much message board free for a while there... the withdrawl symptoms were killing me.

WrydDemonHunter said:
It is cool to see you here again, Happy. I only sort of remember you, since I've gone through long periods of no-posting, and didn't start on the board until somewhere in season seven Buffy.

Anyway, I remember some debates that we had where you won, I think. (Like with that "has Angel ever killed a human in the Damage discussion thread.) (Yeah, it's probably simplistic of me to see debates as a contest, but sometimes I do anyway. ) It shows stamina on your part--so many people just shrug and say, "whatever" when I challenge them.

It's cool to see you posting again.
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The good old days....

Kind of had a period of no posting too. A bunch of stuff drew me away but now that things are (hopefully) settling down I'll be posting again. Hope my debating skills aren't rusty 🙂 .
 
Buffy Summers said:
Can we please turn back to Shells? 😀 Thanks
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Right there with ya (sorry).

Thing I want to know is, why do Angel and Spike try to kill Illyria with swords? I mean, didn't Wesley tell them that weapons in that vein have a nasty habit of shattering against her skin?

Also, why does Angel assume that gun fire will hurt (or slow down at least) Illyria? He's seen The Beast and Skip shrug of bullets. Now suddenly he thinks that gunfire is powerful enough to put the hurt on anything. Guess his photographic memory just isn't what it used to be.
 
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