Discussion of 5.20 'The Girl in Question' (US/WB) Airing 5th May

Stake'em & Smile said:
It was an okay episode but I do agree with you guys. It was very disappointing considering we now only have two episodes left. I was hoping for a much broader story arc. This episode belonged closer to the beginning of the season.

I absolutly love the character Illyria. It's just incredibly disappointing for me to think this is all I'm going to see of her. ::crying::

There was some stuff that cracked me up in this episode. The look on Spike's face when he opened up the bag and saw the bomb was classic. That jacket Angel wore made him look like he should be at a Nascar event. The scooter chase was classic....it reminded me of that '80s movie Lover Boy.
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Yes I agree, that was quite amusing. I believe that they are just planning on the last two being connected since they had to sign an agreement to make Moster of the Week episodes (as opposed to the sweeping stories of season 4). Otherwise we might have gotten a more in depth finish.
 
Another one of them great episodes, very comical, but also dramatical.

The Fred/Illyria scenes were touchy, but the Spangel (asexual way) scenes were even better.

I liked how they brought up, that Angel and Nina have been meeting off screen, I think this way the two of them can have a really mature kind of relationship. And I loved all the little references to the past of both shows; Jasmyne, the Mayor, Acathla, Nikki, cookie-theory.

Also I like how the finally settled the deal with Buffy.

I guess I'm pretty much alone in this, but I liked the episode overall, though IMO, they could've just filled it in with just Angel and Spike talking, 'cause that would've been more interesting.
 
Allycat said:
I guess I'm pretty much alone in this, but I liked the episode overall, though IMO, they could've just filled it in with just Angel and Spike talking, 'cause that would've been more interesting.
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I feel the same way. After reading a lot of the posts I started to feel pretty much alone in the "liking" of this episode department. I had a hoot watching it, but I do agree, for the 3rd to last episode of the series, it would have seemed better placed as maybe the 13th, or 14th episode.
 
Steven DeKnight Posts at The Bronze Beta

Steven S. DeKnight, co-writer of "The Girl in Question" with Drew Goddard, comments on some of the negative reaction to last nights episode.

Steve DeKnight says:
(Thu May 6 07:44:00 2004)
Ho ho ho. Just a quick swoop by since I see that little scamp Drew promised I'd be here. Bad, Drew, bad!

Gotta say, folks, I'm a little surprised at some of the reaction to tonight's episode. Not sure how anyone got the impression that our intent was to poke the hard core fans right in the peeper, but I can tell you that was never our intent. All we wanted to do is address the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle one last time in a light-hearted manner. And that bit at the end about movin' on? Directed at no one but the characters saying the words. We, the people actually working on the show for many long, hard years, just wanted to use our last chance to tell a fun story and to show that yes, love can make you shemp if you let it.

To address a few other random comments: Don't know what you've heard, but Sarah was never going to play an active part in this ep. Not from the conception, the breaking of the story, or the writing of it. As for Tom Lenk (Andrew), I love the guy and I'm very happy he was in the show. We had talked about Dawn doing those scenes, but Michelle wasn't available.

Not defending anything here. Just giving you the facts. And honestly, no matter what we do in these last few episodes, somebody out there's not gonna be happy. So we'll just do our best. Hate it, love it "“ it's still gonna end how it's gonna end. And if you think you're gonna miss it, imagine how we feel. Nah, on second thought, don't. It'll just make you cry.

Steve DeKnight says:
(Thu May 6 07:56:52 2004)
Arabchick rocks (yeah, I know, I'm easy).

Blade and Mrs. Blade: Guess who else was born on October 28? Although I think I just weighed the 11 ounces.

Steve DeKnight says:
(Thu May 6 08:09:41 2004)
Aria: Oh yeah, I do owe her a shirt. Tell her I'm working on picking out a nice one. And ask her if she wants it signed. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we're all Fools For Love*. Even the wicked.

Dachelle: Thanks. You think the fans would know by now that if I really intended to disrespect them, I'd do it on the radio. 😉 And no, Drew has given me nothing, NOTHING, I say, except his usual grief. I'll give him the business the next time I see him.

GothicAvenger: Thanks. It's about time I finally gave a girl everything she wants (don't tell Mere "“ she'll snap you in half). And it goes without saying that I couldn't have done it without the amazing Drew Goddard. That boy's gonna go far. With me on his back. Yee-hah!



*trademark "“ Doug Petrie

Steve DeKnight says:
(Thu May 6 08:18:17 2004)
Beanie: Hey first time poster. Better late than never. Yeah, we would have liked to have used Darla and Dru more too, but there's only so much screen time to go around these days.

Good heavens, look at the hour. I must retire, least the bags around my weary eyes blossom into full-fledged suitcases.

Poof, I say with love and affection, Poof!
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I actually jolted up when Fred came on the screen, screw Wesley I want more Fredness (and preferably with straight hair). Seeing Amy change from Fred to Illyria was great, I hope she does switch back at least once more.

Spike and Dru in the 50s was funny, would of been nice if there was a nod back to "Are you now or have you ever been?".

Where did the Dru and Darla lesbians undertones come from, Spanglness has been hinted before but this Drarla(?) is random and I don't think it was justified. Although seeing Darla and Dru writhing around after a surely steamy session was fun.

The CEO of Rome's Wolfram and Hart, she, well she certainly had her CEOs on display. Along with the rest of the italians they were all stereotypical. But nice hearing the line (paraphrasing) "Americans, always using violence to get what they want."

Andrew was same old Andrew, despite random suaveness, and I'm not a big Andrew fan so lets skip past. Would of been nice seeing Dawn in the scenes instead.

How did Buffy not here Spike when he shouted in the club, I'd say he was half way between the demon and Buffy and the demon heard him, even if his ears were bigger. Shouldn't Buffy of heard the voice (dont care if SMG wasn't in the episode).

Angel and Spike's little runaround Italy was okay, could of been better but nice to see some Angel and Spike bonding, in terms of friendship and hatred. And yeah they did seem a bit too pally even in 1894.

Is it me or is their (^) response to the negativeness "So? We dont care." Ah well.

Angel: "Having sex does not make a relationship."
Spike: "Does if you do it enough."
 
Coincidences???

I enjoyed the episode, but developed an amusing pet theory that I'm hoping might get cleared up for me somewhere along the way.

It seemed at times that the writers were paying an homage to a season 5 episode of Highlander. In episode 5.7, "Money No Object." Duncan is frustrated by his on again/off again girlfriend, Amanda's, affection for a dashing rake of an Immortal named Cory Raines (marvelously played by Nicolas Lea who gained genre fame as evil Agent Krycek on X-Files). Raines straddles the line between good and evil and generally makes a living as a bank robber.

Okay, now we have Spangel in the same situation re: Buffy and someone called the Immortal. We're also told, "He's not immortal like you're immortal." Possibly a reference to the Highlander universe?

In the flashback scenes of HL, we see a Roaring Twenties Raines and Amanda living it up in style as Bonnie and Clyde type bank robbers on a spree. They end up in a hail of bullets, and are buried by mortal authorites. Duty bound Duncan digs them up. They revive and then they do it again. The cycle repeats...This doesn't relate directly, but it's indicative of the kind of comic frustrations Spangel have in flashback with this Immortal that their old girlfriend loves and the boys just don't get!

Finally, in the HL episode, Duncan is blown up when he has to move a car bomb Raines meant to explode on a vacant street but accidentally parked on a parade route. Spangel go boom when the duffel bag bomb goes off. (In HL, Duncan finally car bombs Raines just for revenge in a very satisfying comic climax.)

They could all be coincidences--long-lived vampires and Immortals have much in common-- but there are alot of interesting similarities and the use of the name the Immortal really pulls you to believe that it is an homage.
 
Me and my brother both agree that this episode was disappointing. Granted, I missed the first couple of seconds, but I have no idea who the Immortal is and what the Capo is. Most of the episode moved by too quickly. The Wes/Illyria scenes were nice, though. I loved the '50s Dru/Spike scene. Juliet Landau looked great. The flashback scene seemed kinda pointless. Needed more Lorne, Gunn and Harmony.
B-
 
I missed the Highlander episode you're talking about, but you could have a point. They definitely do that Homage thing. There's the Knowle Rohrer-X Files one they did recently. When dream-Fred screams at the end of Soul Purpose it's a for-sure homage to Invasion of he Body Snatchers.

You know who else has a point? The people at Bronze Beta who feel betrayed by this episode.

Think of all the Spuffy, Spangel fans, and all the energy they invested in the who did Buffy really love question. It turns out all she really wanted was a good roll in the hay. She's getting one now, and she could care less about either one of them. Andrew had to have told her they were in town.

You know what else? They've gone to the "Buffy as vapid slut" well once too often. I hated it with Parker. I hated it in Him. This time though they've convinced me. I just don't care about her any more. I've lost all respect for her.

Hey, maybe that's what this episode was all about, getting people off the "Bring back Buffy" bandwagon, by destroying the integrity of her character.
 
the ultimate cameo show

Simpsons fanboy: Best... Episode... Ever.

Well at least for all us True Fans. I imagine most of the non-true fans were as perplexed as Spike was when Angel started talking about waiting for Buffy to be cookies. 🙂

And how 'bout that Andrew? 😀 Will people think I'm shallow if I say I'd like to take two beautiful blonde ladies out on a date like he did? If people do think I'm shallow, will I care? ... Of course not! I'll be shallow! ::evil:: muh hah hah hah hah ::rolf::

Yeah, we've had a million Spike/Angel banter scenes before, but so far they're still funny.

This episode does, quite well, that thing that was always supposed to be what made Buffy interesting and different: mixing comedy and drama.

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And, see? They broght Fred back again. Just to torture us with it all over. And that hasn't gotten old yet either. But why the smeg didn't someone tell her parents she was dead? That was Fred's dying wish to Wesley ya know. Presumably he was all caught up with grief and crazy because Illyria. But someone should have thought of it. Oh well.

Those poor Burkles (sp?). One day they will find out. Boy that's gonna suck. If we're lucky, us viewers won't have to see it. And her parents even think she's doing well and everything. Ok, now it's starting to hurt. Just a little. It didn't hurt when I saw Fred get hollowed out and made into a god-shell, but seeing her parents wandering around, thinking that everything's great when it's not.. that hurts. Because it means their grief will be that much worse when it eventually hits.

Oh, and then, of course, there's poor Wes.

Oh, and on another note, this should, I think, help solidify the notion that Fred's really dead. Yeah, that might sound weird, but think: if there were some part of Fred's true personality that was going to "bleed through", surely it would have done so during Illyria's performance. But it really didn't. All the things pseudo-Fred said were trite, generically Fred-type things to say--not a real thought process, just a simulation which is easy for Illyria to do since she has memory remnants of Fred left behind (she said this at the end of Shells and gave a demonstration). But that's not Fred--it's just a shadow or something. Good enough to use as source material to hold a four or five minute conversation but that's all.

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Man. Lots a memories in this ep. Definitely one to watch over again. 🙂

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P.S., follow up to some of the negative stuff:

Hope you don't mind here, Faith, I'm just using you as an example to the rest of the class. 🙂

Faith said:
At first I got confused with the numbers and thought this was the second last episode and was thinking..why why why are they wasting time on this. And i'm still thinking that.
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It's because when they wrote it, they thought they were going to have a whole nother season. Also, another poster says they had to sign a contract stating that they would not have a huge story arc this season like they did last season. That was really cruel on the networks part I think--tie the series creators' hands, then deny them another season. Sucks, don't it?

But if you relinquish the desire to have a huge, massive story arc and appreciate what's given, it's a great episode. (Just my opinion.)
 
Hm...this is one of the weaker episodes this season IMo..I didn't so much care for it...although I will say I liked the Wes/Fred/Illyria thing...quite interesting....I would have rathered if they left the Bangel or Spuffy thing open instead of closing it like this though....
 
It was okay. The whole Buffy plot was dull, but it was amusing at points, I admit. That was the most Spangel-y episode yet, I think. I know Magui liked that. lol.

I nearly cried at the end when Wes said "Be blue. Be anything... just don't be her." That was so freaking sad! I MISS FRED! whaaaahhh!

There was something creapy about the way Illyria said "As you wish..." I think she's planning on something. If she acts as Fred again, I'll scream. I miss FRED! She isn't Fred. She's an evil blue demon goddess. (Can you tell I dislike her?)

It was cool to see Fred's folks again. I always liked her mom. She was so sweet, and I loved the diaglogue about Wes. It was so funny, but sad. I was a huge Fred/Wes shipper, so It was so hard to watch!
 
The only worthwile parts of the episode:

"If you do it a lot, it is." (Spike on his relationship with Buffy)

"I saved the world from Acathla." "Buffy killed you." "Well, I gave her the signal with my eyes." "She ran you through with a sword. And I helped, so technically, I get that one!"

..... hmm. Drawing a blank now. Wonder why? Oh yeah, because there wasn't anything else.

Angel and Spike were out of character in the flashbacks. Hello, Andrew is GAY!
And Angel... just get over it. You're not getting any cookie dough soon.

Poor Spike. I felt so bad for him.
 
Everyone's talking about out of character behavior in this episode, well I've found another instance. Buffy was completely out of character in her lack of reaction to Spike. Unless Andrew didn't tell her that Spike is alive, she should have tried to meet him. After all, Spike died saving the world she saw him incinerated. Even if Buffy had no romantic feelings for Spike, she should be freaked out, frightened, and amazed to learn that he is alive. A more logical and frankly hilarious course for this episode would have been for Buffy to enter the room when Andrew, Angel, and Spike are talking and to run into Spikes arms and start crying when she sees him. Angel's reaction would be priceless and she would do the same if she thought Xander was dead and found him alive so it wouldn't answer the relationship question. Obviously this scene could never have happened since they couldn't get SMG for this episode. I just wonder if they weren't going to have her on it why make it at all? Anyway, I'm glad she couldn't appear on Angel if the producers were going to put her in an episode like this. It would have been a total waste of her time. On another note, wouldn't it have been humorous if Andrew pulled Spike aside and tried to talk to him while ignoring Angel completely. After all, Both Buffy and Angel have hinted that he has a big crush on Spike.
 
Soulgasm said:
that chase scene was so gay...that it was classic...a falkin scooter chasing a car like that??...classic...
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That scene was SO FUNNY! So was the part where Angelus said "Go ahead, I'll snatch your little wee sticks out of the air and spend the next 4-9 shoving them slowly up your arse." I'm not sure about "4-9" part becuase my TV scrwed up the sound there...

This episode was SOO DAMN FUNNY! I like the flashbacks of Darla and Drusilla all happy that they were "violated" by The Immortal; I'd really like to see what this dude looks like... it'd be funny if it was like some short geeky guy with glasses (you know, the classic "nerd").
 
I think it was... "Go ahead, I'll snatch your little wee sticks out of the air and spend the next fortnight shoving them slowly up your arse."

Anyway, this episode was good, but for me a bit disappointing as the 3rd to last episode ever. I think if they had to resolve (which i dont think they had too... leave that to our imaginations) the Spike/Angel rivalry over Buffy, that it should have been done w/ a bit more seriousness/reverence. After all both had serious love affairs with her, and clearly still have serious feelings for her. I didnt really buy that Buffy would be out w/ this Immortal character... isnt she trying to be cookies? But, maybe she took Wes' advice on relationships of "acceptable happiness". After all, she thought Spike vaporized and according to Andrew in Damage, nobody trusts Angel anymore. Oh well... I guess the things I like the least is all the build up to Buffy, and the "hair shot" even though we new SMG couldnt be in the episode. Which then took them to rome unneccessarily (cutting out more time w/ lorne, gunn, etc), as the Rome branch of W&H clearly could have handled the demon head all by itself, as they did in the end anyway.

Also as previously mentioned, Spike and Angel were way too buddy-buddy in the flashbacks. Nothing like the last flashback we saw.. where Angel was getting it on with Dru. Some one please tell me that was after 1894. Also, does anybody know when Angel got cursed by the gypsies.

On up notes, FrIllyria was excellent. Poor Wesley! Poor us. The ep was funny in places... the big-earred demon's "obscene" gesture, "it is if you do it enough times"... "concurrently." "you never let US do THAT!"... etc. and i guess there is "closure" to the buffy/angel/spike storyline.

I know there wasnt supposed to be a huge story arc this season... but isnt there one anyway w/ the senior partners? and AI's ability to stay heros and fight the good fight from w/in the belly of the beast? I'm just worried they wont have time to resolve all that w/ only two episodes left. hmmm....

CIAO,

-Helga
 
Judging by the episode alone, that had to be the funniest episode this season. I haven't felt this way about an Angel episode since Destiniy. The direction alone takes the cake. From Spike's Italy flashback to that brilliant fight scene in the pub, the fun just keep coming!

And references!! Cookie Dough! Acathla!! Spike's jacket!! What a treat for long time fans!! And I loved the stereotyped Italians. It had an air of a cartoon, which I absolutely adored. This is nothing we have ever seen before on Angel

And the Darla/Angelus/Drusilla/Spike flashback was comedy gold. Darla's comment on "good fornication" and Spike's well-timed swear made my night. Angelus's reaction to the "concurrently" was timeless as well.

I think Joss was trying to make Angel and Spike see what he wants us to see as well: That Buffy belongs to none of them. We all know Joss hates happy relationships, so Bangel and Spuffy is pretty much extinct now. We should all get over the debate.

Speaking of which, the exchanges between Angel and Spike about who was better: A parody of online fans perhaps? The fact is that they'll never come up with a proper conclusion but its still fun as hell to argue anyway. Loved it!!! This episode deserves a 8/10 just for making me laugh non-stop XDXD
 
Dear heavens, the majority of you people need to lighten up. I definitely respect your opinions on the show, but if you continue to dig too deep, you're gonna disappoint yourself. This episode wasn't the best, I'll agree. I didn't really enjoy the Illyria/Fred thing. I just thought it kinda lost some of the tragedy of losing Fred forever.

The Paris scenes, though, were hillarious. You guys need to get a sense of humor. Making William the Bloody and Angelus look bad was funny, not "not in character". It was FUNNY that it wasn't their normal characters. Yeesh. The slow motion fight was probably one of my favorites. Haha it just made my dad when you see Spike going for Angel. Heh.

On the Buffy side of things, they handled it well. It was funny how they dealt with it (her over the main objective). Andrew was brilliant. And he was NEVER gay! He was a flamboyount geek. Geez. This episode should have been earlier on in the season though. It didn't fit well as the last 3rd.
 
I still say if you want to make Dum and Dummer 3, then make it, but don't be messing with my Spike and Angel characters. All of a sudden every clown in Italy can thump on them. Hey maybe that's the secret to defeating Angel's Avengers. Attack them with Italians.

And funniest Angel ever? I can't believe I'm hearing that. Did you even see Smile Time? You're right about one thing. The episode is cartoonish.

So make a cartoon then. All of a sudden there's 2 episodes left, and I'm assuming next week I'm going to be asked to believe Angel and Spike are champions again. I just can't make that jump from Champions to Buffoons to Champions. Maybe it's just me.
 
nerd4hire said:
Think of all the Spuffy, Spangel fans, and all the energy they invested in the who did Buffy really love question. It turns out all she really wanted was a good roll in the hay. She's getting one now, and she could care less about either one of them. Andrew had to have told her they were in town.

You know what else? They've gone to the "Buffy as vapid slut" well once too often. I hated it with Parker. I hated it in Him. This time though they've convinced me. I just don't care about her any more. I've lost all respect for her.
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They did ask SMG to appear in the next episode so what I believe is Andrew never told Buffy anything. I mean he was so pissy around Angel in Destiny. I think Buffy is still "baking" as she put it and to bake you need lots of heat (metaphor for guys). I dont think she knows about Spike being alive and I think if she was in the next episode she would of come to L.A. to speak to Spike and Angel, or possibly just phone them or something. I mean she wouldn't just tralala off with the Immortal, blazing chest or not.
 
It was quite funny..LOved Fred/llyria/Wesley scenes,but some of Angel and Spike's dialogues were also v.good.I hope to see Nina in next ep,as she's apparently Angel's girlfriend now🙂 It was not abad ep but IMO it was a bit too 'unimportant' seeing as they have only 2 eps left
 
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