Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" (WB-US) - Airing 5/19/04

I thought that this episode was excelent. My only complaint was that there could have been more leading up to this episode. That would have made it much more intense. Like in the end of season 3 it was like... okay, Angel and Cordy are finally going to meet, Darla's been pregnant and there's been a baby, now he's evil, Cordy's a god? wtf? you know what I mean?

It's like, the 3rd season was all great and all leading up to the end. And that just made the end so much more intense. This 2 part episode it was, by the way, there are these guys called the black thorn that if we kill it will stop the apocolypse. and we've met every one of them in one way or another. hurray!

Don't get me wrong, it was great. The end had me angry for like 1/2 of a second. Spike and Angel both knew they were going to die. It's like "We're going to die, but let's take their leaders down with us before we go". I LOVED IT! They're all dead. It leaves me with this feeling of content. Like I don't ABSOLUTLY NEED to see more. Because there is no more... i'm fine without a season 6 because I SAW THE END! now buffy.... that could have used a season 8,9, and 10. I want more Buffy. Angel... you're fine.
 
A Good End

I thought it was a good ending. Obviously, we would like more, and I think if Joss had another season, maybe he would have done some stuff differently. I have to agree with [xtrustno1x] that Spike reading poetry on his "last day" was really cool. I always thought that parts of him that died when he became a vamp would come back to him when his soul was returned... and being a poet was part of that for William. I thought that everyone's last day was appropriate. I liked that they brought up Doyle and Cordelia and Fred as Angel's "failures". I liked that Angel made some very tough choices... he's always been in the grey. Killing a good character (Drogyn) is very nasty. Killing a human with a soul who might be redeemable (Lindsy) is also pretty nasty. I think that is why Angel is prepared to give up his humanity (axing the Shanshu) and to probably die. He shed innocent blood, and bears the blood of those who died following him (Doyle, Cordelia, Fred). Whether he ends up dying or not in that final battle doesn't matter... he is prepared and deserves to die.

I like that Lorne had to walk away, but that he shot Lindsy anyway. I like Eve realizing what Angel did, and simply looking lost.

I've read a couple of posts talking about Wesley's death (for example, [Mdrio9]). I think Wesley had a good death. He had to take down an extreemly powerful wizard (Willow scale), and knew that the only chance to do it was with his own death as a distraction. Of course, even then, he failed and it was Illyria who finishes off the wizard. I like how he tells Illyria to start lying to him... What [Mdrio9] misses is that Illyria says (as Fred) "now we can be together". And [Mdrio9] says in her post "but I am glad he gets to be with Fred again". That's the saddest thing. She is lying to him and he knows it. Fred suffered an almost unimaginable thing in the Buffyverse... a "soul death". Fred's soul was consumed in the birth of Illyria. Wesley will not be seeing her again, whereever he is going. I thought that was one of the most powerful moments in the entire 5 seasons of the show.

I was very moved, and I will miss seeing Joss' intelligence on TV. I hope he's back soon.
 
C
celestial_angel
very good point on the soul death, she was lying to/for him, thats what made it so poignant, she learned to lie out of compassion for Wes
As endings go it was perfect. I lean towards Deviants post about it not being a cliffhanger. They didn't fight because they thought they could win. They fought because they knew it was the only thing you can do. The things Angel said a couple of seasons ago ring so true. "Doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done, or suffered. Or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world were how it should be, to show it what it can be.". They knew they were going to die, and they also knew that in the grand scheme of things their actions that night wouldn't make much of a difference. But still they fought. All because it was a right thing to do. I'm sad now....I think I might dive into a quart of ben & jerry's chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.
 
I will miss this show immensely. The last episode, though I was spoiled rotten, still took my breath away in its execution - reading something does not hold a candle when it is 100% reproduced in front of your eyes. The look on Illirya's face when she shows up to rejoins the Fang Gang, or Angel's Avengers... whatever, in the alley is priceless. She looks like she's been crying. It finally hit me that she somehow managed to grow attached to, if not outright love, Wesley. She was uncontrollably grieving for him. I think the Fang Gang will live because of her. Unless all these demons were endowed with Hamilton-level invulnerability (which came directly from the Senior Partners - according to him), then she'll run through most of them.

It was great that Gunn made it to the final scene of the last show. I enjoyed seeing him develop from a bit part into a mainstay. And this season allowed J. August Richards to show off his acting talents and play a role that demanded more than just fighting. I actually liked Lawyer Gunn much more than Muscle Gunn.

They should have developed this storyline more, and cut out that silly "Girl In Question" episode completely. Yes, it was funny, but if the point was to make Angel and Spike get over Buffy before the series all ended, it could've been slipped in as a meaningful conversation between the two of them - not a whole episode.

This whole episode rocked. The title is dead-on. Angel goes out with a bang - he doesn't fade away. To think that Spike decided to stick with him and fight to the end is awesome. Woudl've been nice if someone from the Buffyverse would have been there, but I guess they just wouldn't fit. While Buffy's folks seemed to be engaged in a guerilla war against eveil -spinning their wheels and complaining the whole time, Angel and his brood took evil head-on. I salute Joss Whedon for creating such a memorable piece of fiction to add to our collective consciousness.

The WB can just suck it!
 
Big sigh

Well, I hear they're talking about making movies, and that ending would sure be a good place to start, wouldn't it?

And geez, yeah, I didn't see Wesley dying, though I guess I'm not surprised. I figured it would be Lorne, the way he talked about not coming back.

And I think the 'thank you' is the WB's way of saying "Please, please, please keep watching us even though we killed your favorite show."

Willow03 said:
wow I'm in the middle of this episode...wow its soo good. I loved Angel's line "I want you Lindsey"...lol "Maybe I should rephrase that".

Wow, ok Lorne just killed Lindsey, that was a shock, I think I may have gasped..lol

omg omg. Wesley!!! I can't belive he just died! That scene between him and "Fred" was very sweet, so Illyria is finally feeling some emotions...Well atleast him and the real fred will be together now.

Ok, wow, that was such a bad ending!! Whats going to happen!! I need more!!

Ok, is angel just ending on the WB or is it totally over, because what was with that "Thank You" thing at the end.....??
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I got a bit blurry eyed myself when Fred came back. Was a good way for Wes to go, though. He went out fighting, and gets to be with his true love.
Now, someone pass the brandy, please. And a box of tissues.

xtrustno1x said:
I'm really going to miss Lorne. He's always been the "non-violent" one of the bunch, and for him to kill Lindsey execution-style blew my mind. Lorne seemed so...broken...



Who says boys can't cry?? 😛 I'm still all weepy about Wes's death. When Illyria (who I loved in this ep..) changed into Fred...I was gone. Couldn't barely see the tv through the tears. Right after the episode, I was listening to "Dust in the Wind" and realized that it seems very fitting. Bad thing is, I can't listen to that song anymore without bursting into tears...
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Crikey, you're right about Fred's soul death. I'd somehow let that slip past me in feeling for Wes.
OK, now I'm really, really, really sad. More bloody brandy, please. And hurry up with those tissues!
Stennengaard said:
I thought it was a good ending. Obviously, we would like more, and I think if Joss had another season, maybe he would have done some stuff differently. I have to agree with [xtrustno1x] that Spike reading poetry on his "last day" was really cool. I always thought that parts of him that died when he became a vamp would come back to him when his soul was returned... and being a poet was part of that for William. I thought that everyone's last day was appropriate. I liked that they brought up Doyle and Cordelia and Fred as Angel's "failures". I liked that Angel made some very tough choices... he's always been in the grey. Killing a good character (Drogyn) is very nasty. Killing a human with a soul who might be redeemable (Lindsy) is also pretty nasty. I think that is why Angel is prepared to give up his humanity (axing the Shanshu) and to probably die. He shed innocent blood, and bears the blood of those who died following him (Doyle, Cordelia, Fred). Whether he ends up dying or not in that final battle doesn't matter... he is prepared and deserves to die.

I like that Lorne had to walk away, but that he shot Lindsy anyway. I like Eve realizing what Angel did, and simply looking lost.

I've read a couple of posts talking about Wesley's death (for example, [Mdrio9]). I think Wesley had a good death. He had to take down an extreemly powerful wizard (Willow scale), and knew that the only chance to do it was with his own death as a distraction. Of course, even then, he failed and it was Illyria who finishes off the wizard. I like how he tells Illyria to start lying to him... What [Mdrio9] misses is that Illyria says (as Fred) "now we can be together". And [Mdrio9] says in her post "but I am glad he gets to be with Fred again". That's the saddest thing. She is lying to him and he knows it. Fred suffered an almost unimaginable thing in the Buffyverse... a "soul death". Fred's soul was consumed in the birth of Illyria. Wesley will not be seeing her again, whereever he is going. I thought that was one of the most powerful moments in the entire 5 seasons of the show.

I was very moved, and I will miss seeing Joss' intelligence on TV. I hope he's back soon.
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That's it then... it's over.

What a great way too end. Pitty it wasn't 2 hours. All the stories were great, gotta way all the characters' stories ended. The ending is the only thing about this episodes that's weird, but on the other hand, there couldn't've really been a better ending since Angel is about the keep on fighting.

Anyhow I'll just HAVE TO write a part two for this 😀
 
Mdrio9 said:
I loved the episode...except I wasn't too fond of the ending. The fights were awesome...each and every one. I was very surprised that Lorne shot Lindsey though. I never thought he'd do anything like that. And, he wasn't planning on meeting up in the alley, which was kind of sad too. So, I guess Lorne just went off...away. I was very sad about Wesley's death, but I am glad he gets to be with Fred again. It's all he ever wanted. I wasn't expecting a betrayal by Harmony, nor was I expecting Connor to appear for the fight against Hamilton. It all fit so perfectly...except the ending. I mean, it was cool, but I hated the abrupt and final cut-off. I really want a 6th season. It still ticks me off that the WB cancelled such a great show.
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Ahh... but Wesley doesn't get to be with Fred. Fred was destroyed in the fires of resurrection when Illyria was brought into her body. Her soul was destroyed, that means she doesn't go on to an after-life, isn't able to be brought back, and doesn't float around in the ether of our dimension. She's just gone. So really, Wesley will never be at peace. I hope I haven't made you miserable or anything 😛
 
Its a lovely sunny day outside, I put on the final episode, looked out my window and there was a massive hail storm....very appropriate!

Wes.....I thought it was going to be Gunn or Lorne that died not him. I've never been really a fan of Wes spanning from his time through Buffy to most of Angel but I did shed tears when he died. Although most of mine went to my fave Lindsey, it was hard to see the screen because I was crying that much - the poor window cleaner thought something was up when he heard me wailing!

I also had a lump in my throat when Hamilton mentioned Doyle and Cordy.

Most who know me, know that I swear quite a bit, and boy did I let out a big WTF when the credits came up!!! I just sat there for like 10 minutes afterwards (pretty much like I did with Buffy) still in tears.

Even when I was watching the theme tune come up for the last time on a new episode at the beginning. I want more dammit!!
 
So many great/bittersweet lines in this one:

Illyria: This wound is mortal. You will die in a few minutes... Would you like me to lie to you now?
Wes (fading): Yes.
(Illyria changes to Fred)

(Charles staggers up, wounded)
Spike (grimly): You're supposed to wear that red stuff on the inside, Charlie boy.

Charles: Where's Wes?
Illyria: Wesley is dead. I feel grief. I can't seem to control it. I wish to do more violence.
(Evil hosts pour into the alley)
Spike: Well, wishes are horses today, love.
 
The ending was very "WTF??"... but now the next day I guess it makes sense... They can't just win but we don't want to see them lose. I hold out that someday this will be resolved.

Lindsey's death was so perfect in a way. The way he was like, "no, angel kills me." It's so Lindsey...

Wesley... I knew in my heart it was going to happen and I thought I wasn't going to be upset, he pisses me off immensely, but the whole Fred thing... I was all upset.

And Gunn! Gunn is all brink of deathy but since it ended I can still be in denial... hehe...

Illyria was awesome but she didn't take over, which was good. ViolenceHappy!Illyria is great.

And Spike! And poetry! And he said effulgent... I was waiting for it and he said it.

And then there's, "Can I deny you three times?" Spike amuses me...

And Illyria wishing gunn luck, in her own special way.
 
Heartbreaking this episode was. I had known it would be Wes to die. It was a way of redeeming his character after all of the terrible choices he had made in the past.

Illyria and her growth as a 'human' was just incredible. The Fred scene really felt from the heart. Like Illyria gave over to her human side and the emotions came out, from the heart.

Lorne - omg. I love Lorne. I felt forlorn on him having to go out on a note like that. He looked - broken.

Spike was awesome. Loved his poetry and how they set that scene up with it looking like he wanted to spend his last day fighting. When all he really wanted was to finally be accepted.

The Angel/Harmony recomendation scene was hilarious, and right in the middle of the big Hamilton fight. I just chuckled.

It's over. I'm still stunned.
 
Hey, Ally, whenever you get around to writing your part two, let me know! I'd love to read it.

Perigon said:
Ahh... but Wesley doesn't get to be with Fred. Fred was destroyed in the fires of resurrection when Illyria was brought into her body. Her soul was destroyed, that means she doesn't go on to an after-life, isn't able to be brought back, and doesn't float around in the ether of our dimension. She's just gone. So really, Wesley will never be at peace. I hope I haven't made you miserable or anything 😛
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I'm just going to pretend you didn't say that...*sniff* Maybe it's just me, but did anyone else find Wes's death to be very...poetic? His whole previous speech about there being no perfect day for himself, his subsequent death...I'm in the mood to write some angsty death pieces...
 
why do they have to keep killing people off!? the trailer said someone was gonna die, so i thought when lindsey said he was "part of the team" and he died, i was like, ok i can live with that. even though that was JUST when i was barely starting to like em.

they need to bring back something just to show lorne happy again. his last line was straight to the audience, i was so pissed off. he looked like he was gonna go to vegas, or even back to pylea or something.

at least connor is ok now. i hated him before, but now i can get to like him, since he can grasp the concept of jokes, and sacrifice.

i was also shocked when i saw the credits, i lost track of time. this is gonna be a long withdrawal phase....
 
A Few Personal Observations

* Girl in Question wasn't necessary. The finale should have been a 3 parter.


* Spike finally finds rhymes for gleaming and effulgent

My soul is wrapped in harsh repose.
Midnight descends in raven, coloured, clothes.

But soft...behold.

the sunlight beaming,
cutting a swath
of glimmering gleam.

My heart expands.
It has grown a bulge in it.

Inspired by your beauty - effulgent.
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God, I just had a horrible thought. Is there going to be fanfic of Spike's poetry, now?

* Angel knew Lorne was going to kill Lindsey, because, after the event he told Eve Lindsey wouldn't be coming back. Lorne wouldn't have called Angel to tell him what happened to Lindsey, because he told Angel he was going to have no more contact with Angel's group. He wasn't coming for the meeting in the alley afterwards.

* Something I missed the first time I watched the ep; When Harmony is giving Hamilton a little afternoon delight, she isn't so much double-crossing Angel, as following orders. Angel told her to keep Hamilton busy.

* Buffy and the Scoobs rejected Angel, because they believed he alligned himself with the dark forces of Wolfram & Hart.

What will they be thinking now? Will they realize, they made a mistake?

* Not Fade Away has a similar ending to the old western classic Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

* Angel's last word's are:

Well, personally I kinda wanna slay the dragon...

Let's get to work
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Angel is the only TV show that can make me cry. I sobbed in A Hole in the World, Shells, and Not FAde Away.

I figured it'd be Wesley, but I didn't want to believe it. He was my all time favorite character. At first when Illyria said, "Would you like me to lie to you now?" I thought, "Oh, no way. She's using this moment to turn into Fred. How dare her." but then Wesley said, "Yes." I thought he was a pig, but then I thought about it. He just wanted Fred's face to be the last thing he saw. It's romantic, really. And the way Illyria did it was so sweet. The whole, "It won't hurt much longer. Then you'll be where I am.We can be together." I hope she was right. They need some peace.

I loved the whole thing with Spike and the poetry. At first, I thought I'd die with laughter, but then he did it and it felt right. It felt like it was him. You know?

I hated the ending. How could they leave such suspense? I want some closure!

I was wondering,was Lorne suposed to Lindsey or did he just do it? To be honest, I was sad when Lindsey died. He and Eve were so good together and I almost cried when Angel told her he wasn't coming back for her. I wanted to see them together again. They were perfect together.

I was disappointed in the whole thing with Harmony. I loved Harmony and she could have been a great help. I can't believe Joss would throw her past back at us. I liked her being a good, team player.

I knew it wouldn't happen, but I hoped for a Fred resurrection. I figured that if they did bring her back, knowing Joss Whedon, Wesley would already be dead and it would be even sadder.

I thought about a spinoff I could write for this show. It would be called "Heaven, or Something Like It" and it would take place in a heaven deminsion where Fred and Wes are and they, along with new characters, would have to fight a disturbance in this perfect place. I might put that or something like it in Writer's Den, but it needs further developement.

Will anyone write an alternate finale?
 
Oh my god. Yeah, that sums up this episode. 10/10 for me. No, make that 11/10.


I just wanted to ask you guys one question:

Could any of you get to sleep after watching this?
 
Very good. Nice ending.

-Lorne, now I hate him. I guessed that he'd be the one giving up, but killing Lindsey?
-Wesley, thought Gunn would be the one to die. Cried at his death.
-Spike, loved the poetry thing
-Harmony, so she betrayed them. Not much of a surprise.
-Illyria, nice to see she's grown.
-Angel, nice to see some bonding with Connor.

-Very beautiful scene, when Illyria changed to Fred and held Wes in her arms.
-Appropriate ending. I thought it would be the perfect fit and Joss/Jeff did it.
 
My favourite line was the one during the Angel vs. Hamilton fight, where Hamilton thinks he's done Angel in, so he starts bragging how the power of the Wolf Ram and Hart flow through his veins, and it's in his blood.

Then Angel rises to his feet, and he says to Hamilton "Now think...What's the one word you probably shouldn't have said there".

(Angel leaps on Hamilton in full vamp face, and starts sucking out Hamilton's blood).

That was great.
 
Wow! I'm having mixed feelings about the episode. I think i'm having a very hard time realizing the series is over. Next wednesday night when I'm not watching it, then I'll freak out, but right now it hasn't settled in yet.

They made the episode really about Angel himself which was great. Loved seeing Vincent again and I'm very glad that he knew that Angel was his dad. This was great because it relates back to Origin when he said that he'd learned that you have to protect your family from his father, we can now assume(well, I'm assuming) that he meant Angel. I was happy Lindsey died although like lindsey I thought it should have been Angel to kill him finally.

I was upset about the whole signing away of the Shanshu. I didn't think that Hamilton was a big enough big bad, to have a huge fight with Angel. And I was very confused b/c Hamilton first hits angel a few times and then Angel has his conversation with Harmony. In there conversation don't we see Hamilton go down the elevator, but then he comes back from Angel's office. I thought it was a robot, but that was not the case when Angel finally kills him. The whole Hamilton and Harmony thing was annoying even thought it was only for a few seconds.

Now onto Wesley. I was of course hysterical by this point. Sobbing to no end. I thought before the episode started that Wes would die, and I think that the writers did it perfectly. I was glad that he got to see "Fred" before he died. The words between the two of them were amazing. I'm so glad that he will finally be with her and be happy.

The cliffhanger was a killer. I had a feeling they would end it right before those demons attacked. Ugh, it's still killing me that we don't know what is gonna happen.The collage of clips for the Thank You at the very end was nice. It was good to see Doyle and all the characters from the past. BTW the episode will air again Tuesday May 25th at 8 P.M. wow that was long. I just had to get all my 'Angel Finale' feelings out
 
nerd4hire said:
My favourite line was the one during the Angel vs. Hamilton fight, where Hamilton thinks he's done Angel in, so he starts bragging how the power of the Wolf Ram and Hart flow through his veins, and it's in his blood.

Then Angel rises to his feet, and he says to Hamilton "Now think...What's the one word you probably shouldn't have said there".

(Angel leaps on Hamilton in full vamp face, and starts sucking out Hamilton's blood).

That was great.
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Agreed. For an instant I thought that Angel would go evil after drinking the Senior Partners power. Then I realized it was the last episode and evil Angel wasn't an option.

Well nerd4hire, I finally see why you love Illyria. She was great this episode and definitely my favorite part. Is it just me or was she a little in love with Wesley?

Speaking of Wesley, did it strike anyone else as odd and kind of suicidal that he tried to use magic against the sorcerer? I don't know I was expecting him to come in the building, say a few words, and then shoot the sorcerer in the head with a couple of exploding, high-caliber, bullets. I knew (guessed) Wesley would die somehow, but I wasn't expecting the particulars.
 
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