Discussion of 8.32 "Twilight Part 1" - Released 03/02/10 (Dark Horse)

[Buffyverse Fan]

The one one thing that bugs me is Twilight. If he's really who the spoilers say he is, why would he put up with Warren designing the lair like the Enterprise?

Beggars can't be choosers, and "Twilight" took years to master "dialing a cell phone."

 

[AndrewCrossett]

My new theory regarding season 8 and current events...

* Buffy has become mystically merged with the Scythe. Buffy had the Scythe when she was picked up and dropped by the goddess. I asked Scott Allie if Buffy recovered the Scythe after she woke up in the snow with her superpowers, and he said "She did not." We haven't seen it since... nor has its absence even been mentioned, oddly enough.

* It is the Scythe, not Buffy, that is sucking up the power of dead Slayers. The Scythe is the conduit for the Slayer magic. But since Buffy is merged with the Scythe, she's getting the "benefit" of all that power.

* The Slayer magic is now actively trying to return to its normal state -- a single Slayer. The magic -- which is primarily demonic in nature -- is responsible for the increasing violence against Slayers around the world, as the magic tries to kill them all off and re-consolidate their power. Twilight is not the one directly responsible for the recent mass murdering of Slayers.

* The magic is now spinning out of control, and the only way to save the world now may be to separate it from the magic completely... the banishment of demons, vampires, and magic (including Slayer magic) as depicted in "Fray."

So the real "Big Bad" of the season is the Slayer magic itself.

I ran this theory by Scott Allie and got a "no comment," so who knows? Maybe some of it is one the mark.

 

[Spike Angelus]

Beggars can't be choosers, and "Twilight" took years to master "dialing a cell phone."

True. It just seems out of character to me though.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

My new theory regarding season 8 and current events...

* Buffy has become mystically merged with the Scythe. Buffy had the Scythe when she was picked up and dropped by the goddess. I asked Scott Allie if Buffy recovered the Scythe after she woke up in the snow with her superpowers, and he said "She did not." We haven't seen it since... nor has its absence even been mentioned, oddly enough.

* It is the Scythe, not Buffy, that is sucking up the power of dead Slayers. The Scythe is the conduit for the Slayer magic. But since Buffy is merged with the Scythe, she's getting the "benefit" of all that power.

* The Slayer magic is now actively trying to return to its normal state -- a single Slayer. The magic -- which is primarily demonic in nature -- is responsible for the increasing violence against Slayers around the world, as the magic tries to kill them all off and re-consolidate their power. Twilight is not the one directly responsible for the recent mass murdering of Slayers.

* The magic is now spinning out of control, and the only way to save the world now may be to separate it from the magic completely... the banishment of demons, vampires, and magic (including Slayer magic) as depicted in "Fray."

So the real "Big Bad" of the season is the Slayer magic itself.

I ran this theory by Scott Allie and got a "no comment," so who knows? Maybe some of it is one the mark.

I personally prefer your theory Andrew; however, I'd say the more likely scenario is that she lost the Scythe, explaining how Urkkon managed to give it to Fray... (well technically, SPike is the last person seen with it before Urkkon...)

 

[Kean]

I personally prefer your theory Andrew; however, I'd say the more likely scenario is that she lost the Scythe, explaining how Urkkon managed to give it to Fray... (well technically, SPike is the last person seen with it before Urkkon...)

Also, in the Fray book Buffy is scene as 'The Last Slayer' banishing the last of the demons to Hell, Scythe in hand.

However, the possibility of that reality no longer existing is also very much on the table.

 

[nerd4hire]

Let's assume the scythe is funneling the slayer power through itself into Buffy. OK, that has a flash of cool, however the fact would remain...it has chosen Buffy, not multiple slayers, and not Faith. The scythe would be saying Buffy is The chosen one, and is now the fulcrum of the slayer line through which power is resevoired, then one would assume, passed on.

Or, upon Buffy's death, would slayer power then have to pass back into the scythe, then pretty much wherever? Is that the theory?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Also, in the Fray book Buffy is scene as 'The Last Slayer' banishing the last of the demons to Hell, Scythe in hand.

However, the possibility of that reality no longer existing is also very much on the table.

Well in the history of the Buffyverse I've only had two theories in which I said my predictions were 99.9% sure to come true:

#1 was that Angel would return after his "death" in S2

#2 was that Angel was Twilight

Now, I'd say my #3 would be that the events of Season Eight will "fracture the Universe" (think Star Trek 2009), and result in Fray being within an Alt!Universe.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The Scythe may indeed consider Buffy the "Chosen One," but it may also have been more that she was the one nearest to it when the melding happened (possibly triggered by Buffy coming into physical contact with the goddess.)

As for how the Scythe gets back so Fray can eventually wind up with it.. what can be joined can also be un-joined. Joss is a big "Runaways" fan and wrote an arc of it. One of the characters in that comic (Nico) has a magic staff that is mystically merged with her, and which she can separate from herself when she needs to. Joss might be thinking along similar lines with Buffy and the Scythe.

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

(well technically, SPike is the last person seen with it before Urkkon...)

Brian Lynch has confirmed that was NOT the Scythe Spike was seen holding in the Illyria future-flash in AtF. It was just a homemade weapon that somewhat resembled it.

 

[nerd4hire]

The Scythe may indeed consider Buffy the "Chosen One," but it may also have been more that she was the one nearest to it when the melding happened (possibly triggered by Buffy coming into physical contact with the goddess.)

I wonder if something else needs to be factored in.

After the events of Chosen Whedon was asked on more than one occasion if they did not contradict the canon as described in Fray. Specifically multiple slayers to single slayer. Joss promised to make things line up in some future addition to said canon.

Now me, I'm hoping he did that here. For one thing it will show he still cares.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I wonder if something else needs to be factored in.

After the events of Chosen Whedon was asked on more than one occasion if they did not contradict the canon as described in Fray. Specifically multiple slayers to single slayer. Joss promised to make things line up in some future addition to said canon.

Now me, I'm hoping he did that here. For one thing it will show he still cares.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's said one of his main goals with season 8 was to show how things got from "Chosen" to "Fray."

Which is why I think the apocalypse described in "Fray" has to happen at the end of this season.

And that begs the question of how we're going to have season 9 of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" with no vampires, no Slayers, and no magic in this world. The way around that is: season 9 doesn't take place in this world.

In a recent Q&A Scott Allie mentioned that at the end of this season, "it's going to be a completely different landscape for these characters." He might have been at least partially literal about that.

 

[nerd4hire]

The continuity question I've heard asked concerning Chosen to Fray is specific. It asks how do you get from the multiple slayers of Chosen to the single slayer of Fray.

Wikipedia is also familiar with the specific question concerning the multiple slayers of Chosen to the single slayer of Fray.

However, the Buffy series finale did not match continuity set by Fray. In Fray no mention is made of the Slayer's essence being split amongst multiple women.[10] When asked about the apparent contradictions between Buffy and Fray, Whedon responded:

"No, that's actually something I hope to deal with, either in the Spike format or in another series of Fray. There's a discrepancy there that I plan to explain. I have a vision for it."[2]

Wikimedia Error

I remember that one. Whedon was talking at the time about the proposed Spike movie. This was well before any talk of a Season 8.

Wikimedia Error

So here's one...they appear to have finally answered that question, after what is it, 6 or 7 years. So are we now to believe that after long last having answered the question, they are now going to unanswer it?

---------- Post added at 11:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

Joss and the crew can be frustrating, but surely, hopefully, not that frustrating. 🙂

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The big challenge for Joss is how to get back to the one-Slayer status quo (or no-Slayer status quo of just before "Fray") without undercutting the female empowerment message that was so important to him and his fans with "Chosen." Having all those girls rewarded for their bravery and empowerment with death isn't a very good message IMO... Joss wouldn't shy away from the death, but the message of "this is what empowerment gets you" would be hard to miss. De-powering them en masse wouldn't be much better ("sorry ladies, the world just can't handle all that Girl Power. Are you ready to be weak again?")

So I'm interested (and a little nervous) to see how it's going to be handled.

 

[nerd4hire]

I kind of hope you're right about reintroducing the issue of the power of the scythe. I used to have a fanwank where you could fill a bunch of the holes in season 7 using the scythe. You could answer a lot of questions about what the First was actually up to.

Scythe Matters.

However, it's possible to make the scythe a player without unanswering the question on what happens after Buffy dies.

I'm hoping they flesh the answer out a bit, but don't completely withdraw it.

 

[Kean]

The big challenge for Joss is how to get back to the one-Slayer status quo (or no-Slayer status quo of just before "Fray") without undercutting the female empowerment message that was so important to him and his fans with "Chosen." Having all those girls rewarded for their bravery and empowerment with death isn't a very good message IMO... Joss wouldn't shy away from the death, but the message of "this is what empowerment gets you" would be hard to miss. De-powering them en masse wouldn't be much better ("sorry ladies, the world just can't handle all that Girl Power. Are you ready to be weak again?")

So I'm interested (and a little nervous) to see how it's going to be handled.

I disagree. The theme of this whole season has been "With great power comes great responsibility". The physical strenght given to the potentials does not equate to them being strong women. How they handle that power and what use they put it too is the real mark of their empowerment. We have seen with the splinter groups and even with Buffy herself that some have taken their new found strenght as a sign that they are better human beings than those physically weaker. They act above the law, above society itself. I don't for a second view that as the mark of truly strong, empowered women.

There has undoubtedly been exemplery slayers but part of that is sacrificing for the greater good, that could mean they lose their physical strenght, it doesn't mean they stop ebing strong women.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I disagree. The theme of this whole season has been "With great power comes great responsibility". The physical strenght given to the potentials does not equate to them being strong women. How they handle that power and what use they put it too is the real mark of their empowerment. We have seen with the splinter groups and even with Buffy herself that some have taken their new found strenght as a sign that they are better human beings than those physically weaker. They act above the law, above society itself. I don't for a second view that as the mark of truly strong, empowered women.

There has undoubtedly been exemplery slayers but part of that is sacrificing for the greater good, that could mean they lose their physical strenght, it doesn't mean they stop ebing strong women.

I thought it might be handled by having the Slayers lose their powers, but go on to win anyway because of their own strength and courage. That would fit nicely with Joss's humanist philosophy that true strength should come from within, not from without.

But I'm starting to wonder if there will be enough Slayers left alive to make that point, or if they'll all wind up chained up and disembowelled, or killed and stuffed in a crate, or facedown in a swamp, like the ones in #32.

If this season comes down to being all about the "greater good" and how the individual only exists to sacrifice all for the collective, I'm not gonna be a happy bunny.

 

[tommy]

I just got the latest two issues. Buffy trying hard to make eye lasers happen is the first thing that really made laugh! Then again when Xander is going through all those comic book superhero powers. Adamantium claws lol.

 

[Kean]

If this season comes down to being all about the "greater good" and how the individual only exists to sacrifice all for the collective, I'm not gonna be a happy bunny.

I find that this season is a lesson against the greater good. Buffy has spent the entire season lost in tunnel "mission" vision. Everything she has done she says she has done "for the greater good" and look where it has led her? The little choices count just as much as the big ones, every little choice that Buffy has gotten wrong has led her here. I think one of the best examples of Buffy losing what made her such a unique Slayer was that she knew that demon doesn't necessarily equal evil and human doesn't necessarily equal good yet in season 8 she has this exchange with Willow,

Willow:"Not killing is what separates us from the bad guys" Buffy:"No, not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys."

This seemingly tiny alternation to her ethos has had conscequences that she could never have imagined.

Due to the manner in which the season has progressed we may yet end up being faced with a "greater good" decision but I feel that it will be a very hard lesson that Buffy will learn from it.

 

[nmcil12]

I find that this season is a lesson against the greater good. Buffy has spent the entire season lost in tunnel "mission" vision. Everything she has done she says she has done "for the greater good" and look where it has led her? The little choices count just as much as the big ones, every little choice that Buffy has gotten wrong has led her here. I think one of the best examples of Buffy losing what made her such a unique Slayer was that she knew that demon doesn't necessarily equal evil and human doesn't necessarily equal good yet in season 8 she has this exchange with Willow,

Willow:"Not killing is what separates us from the bad guys" Buffy:"No, not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys."

This seemingly tiny alternation to her ethos has had conscequences that she could never have imagined.

Due to the manner in which the season has progressed we may yet end up being faced with a "greater good" decision but I feel that it will be a very hard lesson that Buffy will learn from it.

More than anything else, what strikes me about the season is that Buffy has big lessons coming about herself, her emotional life and her responsibilities as the prime leader.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Well, I feel really behind in the discussion, because I just finally got the chance to carefully read the latest issue.

Here are my thoughts:

A great introduction to Brad Meltzer's writing. I'm impressed with his handle on the characters and I'm excited to read more of his work as the season progresses.

I must say, I loved Jeanty's variant cover.

I think I loved this issue even more then the last one. Xander's fanboy obsessing over Buffy was adorable.

Definitely agree with everyone else regarding Dawn. It was nice to see her trying to bring them all back down to earth, for lack of a better term.

What is this "monkey's paw" reference? I feel really dumb not knowing this...and I consider myself to be pretty well-versed in popular culture.

You're getting it from the girls, Buffy. Our girls. That's where all the power's coming from.

Wow. Poor Buffy! So, her superpowers are being given to her from every Slayer who dies? Disturbing stuff.

Nice to see Faith and Giles are alright. Couldn't care less about Andrew.

"Really cool Master Plan"?

I don't know about that. Come on Joss.

Good issue overall. I thought Jeanty's drawings of Buffy were great in this issue. I especially like her expression in the panel where she says "We'll help you kick his ass" and on the following page with "Will?"

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What is this "monkey's paw" reference? I feel really dumb not knowing this...and I consider myself to be pretty well-versed in popular culture.

Well that would explain it! "The Monkey's Paw" isn't really pop culture, not our pop culture anyway. In short it's an old fable about a magic monkey's paw that grants wishes, but with every wish comes unimaginably terrible consequences.

Doctor Horrible would actually be an even better comparison to Monkey's Paw, as him getting into the Evil League of Evil through Penny's death is precisely the type of situation that would result from the Monkey's Paw.

"Really cool Master Plan"?

I don't know about that. Come on Joss.

Heh, I noted that too the first day. It does seem a little off for "Twilight." But then I thought Angel's "now I'm pissed!" line was slightly out of character too, and that was in Chosen, the S7 Finale.