Discussion of 8.34 "Twilight Part 3" - Released 4/07/10 (Dark Horse)

[frankie]

My hope is that the scoobies will have to snap Angel and Buffy out of this "thrall" that seems to be effecting them. And it should be something epic, Willow drawing on some major magics to get it done.
My fear is that they will play the " hero " angle and Buffy and Angel will see what they are doing is wrong and snap themselves out of it. This is usually fine, they don't really play by destiny's rules, and Buffy is certainly not destiny's bitch, but I won't accept that this time. If they are capable of free-will then they should have broken this thrall sooner. Angel shouldn't have killed hundreds of slayers and Buffy certainly shouldn't be getting groiny with a mass murderer.
Damage control is needed. We need a great explanation of why they are doing this and that it is beyond their control. Otherwise I think I will hate these characters. 🙁 Which is saying a lot since Buffy is my favorite character and I can usually argue in favor of her over any choices she makes, but if a part of Buffy still remains in control here, and she is still letting this be done to her, i will be ashamed of her to be honest. She's better than, attraction and lust, no matter how bad the world want's her to do it's bidding.
A few issues left to do these characters some justice Joss. Please don't mess it up. 🙁

 

[LyteHouse]

Buffy giving handjobs and getting humped doggie-style just seems like a really cynical attempt to boost sales if you ask me.

The fact that I bought two copies only proves this.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

What the hell is wrong with everyone, we saw Buffy get consumed by lust before, both with Riley when they were feeding the dead kids in the dorms, and even without something encouraging her with Spike. So why should she be able to just snap out of it now?

For endangering the world by being with Angel, we don't know she knows whats happening, if she's zipping around in Space and Time she probably has no clue. Not like she hasn't endangered lives before for someone she has feelings for, she kept Spike at her house, when he could have been triggered at any stage with a house full of potentials.

And for people complaining that she's having sex with Angel who has been killing the slayers, she was having sex with the same Spike who killed 2 other Slayers and all those people.

So aside from the fact that we don't know everything yet about Twilight and this Thrawl, the things people are complaining about have happened before and are well within her character.

 

[MinwaraYana]

I would stop reading already if Faith wasn't in it.

Another problem is, I can't look at Buffy and Angel in the same way anymore. Same goes for Bangel S1-S3. Now I can't stand watching their scenes together. S8 made me hate them(for now or forever, I don't know yet). 🙁

Saying they're destined is cheating, don't you think?

 

[frankie]

What the hell is wrong with everyone, we saw Buffy get consumed by lust before, both with Riley when they were feeding the dead kids in the dorms, and even without something encouraging her with Spike. So why should she be able to just snap out of it now?

For endangering the world by being with Angel, we don't know she knows whats happening, if she's zipping around in Space and Time she probably has no clue. Not like she hasn't endangered lives before for someone she has feelings for, she kept Spike at her house, when he could have been triggered at any stage with a house full of potentials.

And for people complaining that she's having sex with Angel who has been killing the slayers, she was having sex with the same Spike who killed 2 other Slayers and all those people.

So aside from the fact that we don't know everything yet about Twilight and this Thrawl, the things people are complaining about have happened before and are well within her character.

Spike was at a time when she was lost and unhappy. She used him to feel something, but she never forgot what he was, if it had come down to it she would have stopped him.
She's also not heartless Spike had a soul and was being triggered by the first. He didn't choose to kill those people, she was trying to help him and give him a shot at redemption. And If he had touched those potentials, he would have been dust!
She's evolved as a character, and not in a stupid supergirl, x-men rip off kind away. The next step in human evolution. Christ.
If a part of her remains in control and is aware of her actions, I will be disappointed because I don't think that's within her character now. She has died for every one on this planet, she stared in the face of first evil and beat down it's army to protect human life. If she thinks it's ok to wipe them from the face of the planet now because she get's to screw Angel, then I will be done with the character. That's not Buffy. I just hope she's not in any control of her actions, no matter how small. That goes for Angel too.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Willow: "Think about it. She should be staking him right now. She did it once, to save the world. Now the world won't let her. It isn't just reacting to what they're doing... it's urging them on."

So they fell in love on their own, not because the Universe made them... but then the Universe noticed and decided to use them and their love for its own purposes.

And even though Buffy loves Angel, she is willing to kill him to save the world. She was trying to do that until the Universe took hold of her and made her have sex with him instead.

So it's not rape, because Buffy is having sex with someone she loves and would normally want to have sex with... but it's non-consensual, because Buffy would not normally want to do it under these circumstances, considering what he's done (regardless of his reasons) and what's happening right now.

But when this is over, I think it's going to be like the end of season 3, times 100. Buffy will be thoroughly sick of being destiny's bitch, and will do everything she can to rectify that situation, and Buffy and Angel will have to reluctantly agree with Cordelia's assessment... they just can't be together that way without making the world fall apart.

I think using "The Universe" as the Big Bad is kind of lame, but I suppose what we're dealing with here is just evolution, hopped up on magical steroids. Not really any goofier than stuff that happened on the TV show (albeit a lot more porny)... but it just seems a little dumber than usual there on the printed page, without the actors there to sell it, and with us having so much time to think about it.

 

[white avenger]

What the hell is wrong with everyone, we saw Buffy get consumed by lust before, both with Riley when they were feeding the dead kids in the dorms, and even without something encouraging her with Spike. So why should she be able to just snap out of it now?


And for people complaining that she's having sex with Angel who has been killing the slayers, she was having sex with the same Spike who killed 2 other Slayers and all those people.

So aside from the fact that we don't know everything yet about Twilight and this Thrall, the things people are complaining about have happened before and are well within her character.

Maybe Buffy's times with Riley in the dorm and Spike in the abandoned house, AND Angel with Darla, Cordy, and Eve are actually connected to what is happening now, preludes to the main event, so to speak.

In fact the entire chain of events from the time that Angel was cursed with his soul by the Gypsies, and the moment that Buffy was Called (remember, her becoming the Slayer was a surprise for the Watchers, hence Merrick only approached her after she actually became the Slayer rather than months or years before, as is the norm) could have been the result of manipulation by whatever is actually instigating this whole crap-fest.

Even Angel's time in hell and Buffy's time in heaven might have actually been false memories used to cover up the equivalent of turning both Buffy and Angel into sleeper agents, just waiting to be triggered.

(And, no, Miss K, that in no way invalidates Bangel, or, for that matter, Spuffy, Briley, Dangel or Cangel. The Unknown Entity merely in effect introduced the principals, then let Nature take its course. Whatever romantic or pure passionate feelings that developed did so all by themselves, from natural attraction, not from manipulation by an outside force)

 

[crabby patty]

I just find it all confusing - I must be really thick or something as i can't understand the comics well and what the hell is going on!

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Giles searched for a mystical totem to kill Buffy? What is wrong with him and are they still looking for it? Is the totem now useless?

I dont believe it. Giles could really kill Buffy...this is just horrible. Giles character gets too dark imo. I don´t like it.

I can buy him doing that. Giles does what he has to. He certainly wouldn't have liked doing it.

Who is that on the picture with the three days ago line? It looks like Dawn but i can´t tell for sure.

Me neither. Not sure if that's intentional or the artwork is that bad.

 

[white avenger]

I dont believe it. Giles could really kill Buffy...this is just horrible. Giles character gets too dark imo. I don´t like it.

.

Giles has been going steadily darker since he left in the middle of Season 6, maybe even longer. It's like he's reverting back to his "Ripper" persona, or, at least, what we know of him at that time, which wasn't particularly pleasant.

Remember, he was considering killing Dawn and DID kill Ben in Season 5, would have probably killed Willow in Season 6 if it had come down to that, and tried to kill Spike against Buffy's wishes in Season 7. He might not enjoy killing Buffy, but by Season 8, he most definitely would if, if he believed that it were necessary.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I don't agree about the Ripper comment. Ripper was more...reckless.

I still cannot believe people use his killing Ben against him. They would have been royally screwed if he didn't.

Buffyverse Fan agrees: I disagree. We're seeing him darker, but I think being Dark is the default for all field Watchers...

Yeah, look at Wesley. He wasn't always a watcher, though.

 

[VisionGuy]

I still haven't gotten this or the last issue in the mail. TFAW where art thou?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Spike was at a time when she was lost and unhappy. She used him to feel something, but she never forgot what he was, if it had come down to it she would have stopped him.
She's also not heartless Spike had a soul and was being triggered by the first. He didn't choose to kill those people, she was trying to help him and give him a shot at redemption. And If he had touched those potentials, he would have been dust!
She's evolved as a character, and not in a stupid supergirl, x-men rip off kind away. The next step in human evolution. Christ.
If a part of her remains in control and is aware of her actions, I will be disappointed because I don't think that's within her character now. She has died for every one on this planet, she stared in the face of first evil and beat down it's army to protect human life. If she thinks it's ok to wipe them from the face of the planet now because she get's to screw Angel, then I will be done with the character. That's not Buffy. I just hope she's not in any control of her actions, no matter how small. That goes for Angel too.

My comment wasn't about Spike, so I'm not gonna respond on all this as I wasn't bad mouthing Spike. I was saying we saw Buffy take a waiting to be triggered killer into her house full of potentials, forget it was Spike, she took someone who could be switched on and off by the thing that was trying to kill all the potentials, and put him right next to all the potentials, it was still reckless.

This part I just wanna change around a bit, and see something:

She's also not heartless Spike had a soul and was being triggered by the first. He didn't choose to kill those people, she was trying to help him and give him a shot at redemption.

She's also not heartless Angel had a soul and was being enthralled by Twilight. He didn't choose to kill those people, she was trying to help him and give him a shot at redemption.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

I just read this (sure as hell didn't pay for it though, thank god), and SERIOUSLY? I wasn't sure Buffy season 8 could get much worse after that stupid Harmony arc but boy was I wrong. I don't even have the patience to actually read the issues anymore...I just skim through them to get the gist of what's going on and even that is still enough to get me pissed off. I'd stop reading if it weren't so horrible that I couldn't look away...at least I stopped actually buying the issues, so that's a step.

Also, the ridiculously long and pointless Buffy/Angel sex scene was even dumber than that scene in the infamous Frank Miller comic The Dark Knight Strikes Again where Superman and Wonder Woman have super-sex that causes natural disasters. I wish I were exaggerating.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

Superstar agrees: Mr. Whedon likes comics.

If Mr. Whedon REALLY liked comics he'd realize that everyone hated The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Isn't that pretty much widely recognized as the mother of bad comics (well, aside from anything Rob Liefeld has ever touched)?

 

[frankie]

This part I just wanna change around a bit, and see something:


She's also not heartless Angel had a soul and was being enthralled by Twilight. He didn't choose to kill those people, she was trying to help him and give him a shot at redemption.

That's my point. I have no problem with this. He deserves a shot at redemption. My fear is that this thrall will be revealed to be something they can break by themselves. I'd hate to see after the damage is done that they'll just say, "we can't do this anymore, it's wrong." If it's something they have no power over, I'm good with it, they're just puppets. I know it's just conjecture at this point, but I fear they still have some free-will in there, I hope I'm proven wrong though.

 

[Superstar]

Isn't that pretty much widely recognized as the mother of bad comics (well, aside from anything Rob Liefeld has ever touched)?

Nah.
I give that crown to Final Crisis, tie-ins and it's aftermath spin-offs.

The writer admitted full out that the only reason he did it was to bring back his favorite Flash from the dead.
The rest was a freakin' DISASTER, with those spin-offs as grotesque afterbirthings of some unnamed hellbeast.

But, you're right about Liefield.
There are a lot of comics writers who stand next to Liefield in that particular line-up though.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

That's my point. I have no problem with this. He deserves a shot at redemption. My fear is that this thrall will be revealed to be something they can break by themselves. I'd hate to see after the damage is done that they'll just say, "we can't do this anymore, it's wrong." If it's something they have no power over, I'm good with it, they're just puppets. I know it's just conjecture at this point, but I fear they still have some free-will in there, I hope I'm proven wrong though.

But why should she now be able to cop on straight away? You mentioned earlier that she has evolved, but we've only seen that she has evolved physically with their new powers, nothing says she's changed mentally, and there has been loads of cases of Buffy getting caught in trawl and not breaking out of it, Riley, Spike and Dracula, she only broke out of that after drinking his blood.

 

[Kean]

I think bringing Buffy and Angel together is actually going to work against The Universe. It seems like the plan was for Buffy and Angel to just be the Universes' play things but I read up a bit on the Yin and the Yang theory and part of that is when one side of the unit is lacking or weakened(which would be Angel at this point) the other other makes up the difference, or rebalances them, so to speak. Angel is clearly entrenched in Twilight's influence but Buffy is just beginning, I don't think it has full control of her yet. I think she is gona fight back against the Universe and help Angel do it too so they can both fight against this power.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

But why should she now be able to cop on straight away? You mentioned earlier that she has evolved, but we've only seen that she has evolved physically with their new powers, nothing says she's changed mentally, and there has been loads of cases of Buffy getting caught in trawl and not breaking out of it, Riley, Spike and Dracula, she only broke out of that after drinking his blood.

I don't think Buffy is aware that she is being influenced just yet, maybe at the very end of the issue, the look on her face on the last page makes me think she is only now realising all is not right.

Once she does realise what is going on we will see Buffy pushing back against the Universe.

 

[frankie]

But why should she now be able to cop on straight away? You mentioned earlier that she has evolved, but we've only seen that she has evolved physically with their new powers, nothing says she's changed mentally, and there has been loads of cases of Buffy getting caught in trawl and not breaking out of it, Riley, Spike and Dracula, she only broke out of that after drinking his blood.

With Riley it was an outside force controlling her, she couldn't break away. With Dracula it was a slow build and then over quite quickly, before she had a chance to hurt someone. Thankfully. It could have ended up a lot worse, but again it was the blood that broke her free, which makes me think she wasn't in control of herself at all at this point, and it took something to break her free. Spike it was more about need and lust, but I don't think she set out to hurt anyone. With this, I just can't see how she wouldn't know how wrong it is. To join with someone who has killed for the entire season and will continue to do so. I honestly believe she would know it is wrong, and if the thrall still allows her some recognition of how wrong it is, and she continues on this path, i do feel it will wreck her character for me. Even if she cops on that it's wrong at some point.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think bringing Buffy and Angel together is actually going to work against The Universe. It seems like the plan was for Buffy and Angel to just be the Universes' play things but I read up a bit on the Yin and the Yang theory and part of that is when one side of the unit is lacking or weakened(which would be Angel at this point) the other other makes up the difference, or rebalances them, so to speak. Angel is clearly entrenched in Twilight's influence but Buffy is just beginning, I don't think it has full control of her yet. I think she is gona fight back against the Universe and help Angel do it too so they can both fight against this power.

I think the real Big Bad of season 8 will not be Twilight, or the Universe, but Destiny. The idea that Buffy's life isn't hers to live, but that she has to spend it dancing on the strings of someone or something else's agenda.

This is the thing that will finally get her to say "No more."