Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.36 "Last Gleaming Part 1" - Released 9/1/10 (Dark Horse)

In the issue, Buffy is obviously angry at Spike. She glares at him, she holds his shoulder roughly, she raises an eyebrow at him. I think she's angry because he didn't come to her when he came back, and then when she knew he was back she didn't go to him. Why would she if he didn't care anymore?

Assuming that Buffy was telling the entire truth about actually knowing that Spike was back, it would also be fair to assume that she knew WHERE he was, as opposed to "Somewhere in Europe, the last I heard," which is all the information that Spike had, until he got the false information that she was in Rome, happily cavorting around the Eternal City with someone who both Angel and Spike considered an enemy, and had "moved on," with that selfsame enemy. I would say that Buffy's chances of going to Spike were infinitely better than him going to her. And as for his instructions to Andrew that "he would be the one" who told Buffy that he was back, he could have simply meant that he didn't want the news of his return to be delivered second hand, the same way that he had not known that she had returned in Season 6 until he actually saw her for himself, and he might be granted a little slack on not actually getting around to it afterward, considering the getting his hands chopped off, and later Fred's body being usurped by Illyria, and finally the misinformation about Buffy and the Immortal. If Buffy THOUGHT that Spike no longer cared, Spike had what appeared to be much more tangible proof that would lead him to KNOW that she no longer cared. I think that this whole thing is the result of misinformation all around.
 
"You have my heart so what can I do?" is the cheesiest line ever in S8. It's still too weird after she found out he's Twilight and the space sex. I love the only Faith line she's said and Willow's little magic mistake. 😀

But I don't feel like it's BtVS anymore. Too many things like space, time traveling and ridiculous giant demons. 🙁
 
So Buffy knew Spike was alive all along, then? And didn't do anything? 🙁

Buffy not knowing would have made more narrative sense but would have taken too much space for exposition. With Buffy knowing already, it saves on explanations and it also allows Joss to play with the expectations of the reader - what better way to surprise your audience than by having a total anti-climax!

I was always firmly in the 'she didn't know' camp but I've warmed to the 'she knew' idea very easily. It really fits well with Spike and Buffy's story - she finds out he's back but hasn't contacted her, she's peeved and decides that if he thinks she's gonna contact him then he's got another thing coming... so they are at cross-purpose which is not a all difficult to believe for Spike and Buffy 🙂

(But from all accounts they get a fair bit of time together in the remaining issues so I'm sure they'll sort the friendship out sooner or later.)
 
Personally - when I saw the Master - my first thought was "Pure Genius". As it was a twist that I hadn't been expecting. But are we 100% sure it's the Master - and not the First Evil appearing as the Master (remember it did that in "Lessons" - the season 7 opener).

I think it IS the Master and I wanted to say because he's holding this red egg but I just noticed he isn't touching it at all, so I have no proof at all xD. So you could be right too.

The reason I say this - is that a very pissed off Buffy(but no where nearly as powerful)defeated the Master in Season 1, then she smashed his bones at the beginning of Season 2. If it was truely the Master - he would be just canon fodder for Buffy in her present condition. However - if the Master is either much more powerful, or incorporal then he could be a greater threat.

And the question raised even back then was - why did he leave bones at all? Why didn't he just dust like usual vamps? It couldn't have been because of his old age. The Turok Han dust and they're far older than "modern" vamps. I think there is more to the Master than meets the eye and him showing up again here - after he'd been seemingly killed - supports that.

Now my theory is that he isn't your usual vampire - though what he really IS, I don't know, since he was able to turn Darla who started a line of perfectly "normal" vampires. I use the term "normal" loosely - and he DID die when Buffy killed him (therefore making it possible for the First Evil to take his form) but something of him was preserved, since he left the bones and this something is now back as a fully formed and probably much more powerful Master than he was before.
 
D
Daniel Osbourne
Well, all vamps can be impersonated by The First since they're.. y'know, dead. Good point on the skeleton.
About the Master comin back from the undead, so to speak, does anyone else think that this might actually be the Master from Cordelia's Wishverse, somehow transferred into the Buffyverse in pretty much the same way that Vamp Willow was? They've been talking about interdimensional portals and rifts and such. Maybe he slipped through one of them.
 
I'm still going with my time travel theory, how else good both the Master and Sunnydale be back at the same time? Then again it's the Jossverse, you never know. Besides, Scott Allie in one of his recent interviews already confirmed it's not the First. And personally I really don't like the First, I thought Season Seven was not much better than Season Six, mostly because of the ending. So it'll be interesting to see how the Master fits into all of this, hope they don't spend much more time on the 'ships, save that for Season Nine.
 
I haven't got this issue yet and I swore to myself I wouldn't come in her and read all the awesome spoilers, but hey no sense of willpower over here cause I did anyways. The Master returns! Dun Dun Dun! It kinda makes no sense and every sense, I was really not expecting that but I saw an ad for this issue (or next issue?) that read Welcome Back To The Hellmouth and I was so sure it would be one of the Sunnydale big bads but The Master never occurred to me and I spent alot of time thinking over that one *hits self*

So Buffy's pissed at Spike. Can't at all say I blame her (then again Spike thought she had happily moved on to The Immortal so...) but I really hope they fix it. I've come to peace with them most likely never having a romantic thing but hey just friends wouldn't be horrible would it?

Also - I know Spike fans - who were harping on how Angel is unredemable now - won't like this. But in reading issue #36 - I get the feeling that ultimately that Angel's intentions are more noble and honorable than Spike's are. This issue definitely makes me question Spike intentions. And also wonder what's with the Bug Crew, and the "Bug One" Ship. What I fear is that Spike may have fallen back to dark side - in taking the group back to Sunnydale - and right in to "the Master's" waiting hands.

The issue hints that Spike is evil again!? How could that happen!? Now I'm just really scared, uber exited (did I really just use the word uber?) and a little crazy because it looks like my issue won't be coming for a good long while...
 
About the Master comin back from the undead, so to speak, does anyone else think that this might actually be the Master from Cordelia's Wishverse, somehow transferred into the Buffyverse in pretty much the same way that Vamp Willow was? They've been talking about interdimensional portals and rifts and such. Maybe he slipped through one of them.

re: the master coming back...

one thing i always liked about buffy over a lot of other supernatural action adventure series is that when you get down to it the series really does follow the "rules of folklore"...granted there are times when things get overlooked (like say shooting a vampire willow with a trank and watching her pass out) but for the most part the series "gets it right".

if you become a vampire...you don't become a vampire...you die and a demon takes up permanent residence in your old body. it may have your memories and look like you and even take on some of your personality traits...but it isn't you. when a vampire gets staked it doesn't die...its tether to the mortal coil is simply severed and it gets sent back to hell. according to old legend it takes time...but it is possible for the vampiric demon to escape hell all over again and take up residence in a different body.

buffy really didn't kill the master...she just sent him back to hell...but of course there can also be a zillion other reasons as to why hes back.

not the strongest issue...but the last page did bring a smile to my face.
 
The issue hints that Spike is evil again!? How could that happen!? Now I'm just really scared, uber exited (did I really just use the word uber?) and a little crazy because it looks like my issue won't be coming for a good long while...

It really doesn't. There is nothing to suggest that Spike is 'evil'. Spike's bug crew and how he got them will be explained in Brian Lynch's upcoming Spike series. Twangel says he doesn't trust Spike - which is pretty weird coming from a bloke who has spent the last year wearing a mask and working against Buffy and her slayers. Spike says she can't trust Angel - because, I assume, Spike knows that he is under the influence of Twilight. Spike's only agenda seems to be to help.
 
Well looks like Spike and Angel don't trust each other anymore which I find hard to believe but whatever. And no there is nothing to suggest Spike is evil other than the fact that Angel suspects Spike's got an agenda because it looks suspicious that Spike chose now to show up. And we still don't know whether Spike is still a vampire at the moment because if I remember correctly we did see him in sunlight, then again we did see him in Space too so I don't think he's a human. They mention that he's now the Keeper of Prophecies somewhere in the issue, whatever that's suppose to be.
 
Angel suspects Spike's got an agenda because it looks suspicious that Spike chose now to show up.

...which is weird, coming from the guy who did pretty much the same thing the last time that Buffy saw him back in Sunnydale The biggest difference is, Spike shows up in a cool space ship, and all Angel brought was a measly ol' amulet.

Come to think of it, Buffy sent Angel away and stayed with Spike that time, too, didn't she?
 
I FINALLY read it. Here's what I think: they all seem in character for me. Buffy clearly loves Angel even if she can't trust him, that's what love is, you don't choose rationally how you love a person. She's gonna forgive Angel because, as Sosa said, that's what Buffy is. People need second chances and she, of all people, knows that. She sends him away to fight and to avoid what would be just a scene with Spike but she's gonna expect Angel to come looking for her, she wants to be with him 'cause she's proud of what he gave up and how he wants to actually have that second chance. Now..Spike and Buffy...she wants to go right straight to business and yes, she does seem mad but not that much after all..Spike's of course disappointed by super-sex but I couldn't care less if he is or not. The important is that when Spike tells Buffy what happened she looks so upset, shocked and Willow consoling her in the background was very sweet and I guess we know Buffy's thinking about what she's done and she's gonna fight even harder to make things right. Last but not least...they're going to the Master??? Whaaaaat? Oh well, I love him so whatever they have in store for him, I'm gonna like having him around. What can I say? I liked this issue, I was prepared for much worse...and maybe next issue's gonna give me worse but I'm gonna keep hoping. My two cents.
 
Daniel Osbourne agrees: Well, all vamps can be impersonated by The First since they're.. y'know, dead. Good point on the skeleton.

Oh, d'oh. You're right, of course. I was having a stupid moment. xD
 
I loved the issue. Enormously.

I had doubts until now. It happens in showbiz: a creator loses interest to his characters and passes them to other writers who see them quite differently. Soon after season 8 has started, Joss has suddenly got several new shiny toys - "Dr. Horrible", "Dollhouse", "Cabin in the Wood". He could just keep his name on the season out of loyalty to DH and let other writers re-shape Buffy according to their vision. And, given how insanely popular Stephenie Meyer is, it was possible that new writers, especially Meltzer, who never wrote in Jossverse before, tried to reinvent Buffy and Angel as Bella and Edward on steroids.

Except, no. This is Joss, and these are still his characters. Spike's big entrance, knocking down Big Ben with his ship, was perfect. All his lines reminded me again how much I love Joss' dialogue. Faith's "man-bitch formerly known as Angel" was in character. Willow turning Angel into a frog was priceless.

Everybody except Buffy and Angel are in character. Buffy calls Angel "baby". Buffy doesn't question Angel's motives. Buffy sends Angel to protect slayers - not everybody, but only slayers. Whom he targeted.

Her personality is skewed; she's a grotesque version of the Buffy we know. In a recent interview Scott Allie said that the glow worked like a drug, "a visual representation of what was going on, the way they were infused." He added that "you should not let the characters off the hook completely for their actions. It worked like a drug, clouding your judgment, but you're still you. You should not abandon responsibility for your actions, even if you might have acted differently if not under the influence" - and I admit that the analogy with drug annoys me a bit. It's unfair, given that both Buffy and Angel aren't "taking drugs" voluntarily. Angel was manipulated into "taking drugs", believing them to be a medicine; Buffy was infused against her will. But that's technicalities. The point is that they are affected, and it's part of the plot.

The exact nature of the drug is unclear. Here's how I see it: the drug has turned Buffy into a slightly upgraded cave!Buffy - "Boy smell nice. Want boy." - but in a less obvious manner. Buffy still can make choices that override her instincts, but only in extreme situations, like when she saw her sister and her friends in mortal danger. Buffy still loves her friends. She is protective of her tribe (slayers). But her primal urge is to copulate and procreate. So that's what she and Angel do: procreate Twilight. Cavemen win.

Angel's out of the picture, but he promised to return soon. He better. So far, Bangel arc has disappointed me, because Joss missed a chance to explore a really interesting conflict here. Clash of wills, conflict of personalities. On TV, Buffy and Angel were such fascinating characters. Joss could write an awesome story about them - about love and duty, about hard decisions and impossible choices. But he pursued titillation instead of conflict, created IWRY on steroids - a story about Angel making decisions for Buffy's good. Plus, porn. What a waste. But if Angel will be back, there may be a conflict, after all. We'll see.

-- Spike's ship and the crew. So far, the most extravagant explanation I read is that Joss wanted to depict "Spike shippers" as ugly green bugs. 🙂)))) But, seriously, why alien bugs? My impression is that Joss pursued two goals: 1) to cut off any parallels to Serenity, to avoid the temptation to reinvent Firefly characters in the new setting and 2) to show that Spike has been very, very far away and had a lot of problems of his own to be well-posted on Buffy's situation.

-- Jeanty draws fantabulicious Spike's close-ups. His general plans are usually static and can't compare to Urru's fluid and dynamic style, but his close-ups have just the right balance of likeness and stylization.

-- "Full steam ahead, Bug One!" -- "I'm Bug Three." This is so Joss. Even a throwaway line contains so many layers. Apparently, the bug sees his number as a name. He doesn't want to be called Bug One. He is Bug Three and proud of it. Am I stretching or this is Joss' comment on endless debates who's number one in Buffy's heart?

-- Looks like Andrew is alive and okay again. Apparently Willow has magically healed him. Yay!

And, finally...

-- The Master. Ta-dam! The evil has a face, after all.

If I understand the situation correctly, it was The Master who was manipulating Buffy and Angel all along. Somehow his dust turned into flesh (again!) and he decided to avenge that pesky cheerleader who destroyed him, and that insolent vampire who took his beloved Darla away. Also, to create the evil Twilight dimension for fun and pleasure. Most likely The Master is still stuck in the Hellmouth like Vinnie-the-Pooh in Piglet's house, so he schemes from there, using The Seed - the ultimate magic artifact that can do anything: to pluck Angel from the apocalyptic place he was, to give him superpowers, to imprint The Master's scheming self into the dog, the stewardess, Whistler, people in the park who talked to Angel. The only thing The Seed can't do is to get The Master out.

Of course, I may be wrong - the actual Big Bad is the Universe, after all - and The Master is "the old enemy" who becomes Buffy's ally. At first sight, The Master's only line in #36 suggests that he has something Buffy needs - which indirectly supports "Big Bad Universe" theory. (But isn't Joss a master of misleads? And the line is written in "Twilight" font.)

Another indirect argument in "Big Bad Universe" favor: Spike talks about the Twilight dimension as an alive, intelligent species ("ditched at birth [...] come looking for mummy.") So, yes, maybe Joss got interested in the theory of biocosm - "Avatar" made it pretty popular - and applied it to season 8.

But let's look at the situation from the outside.

Evil has to have a face. Comic is a visual medium. An abstract Big Bad kills the intrigue. But if "Big Bad Universe" was a smoke screen to distract us from The Master, then everything falls into place. The lameness of "Big Bad Universe" suddenly makes sense - it is supposed to be lame and far-fetched, because it's not true. It's not the universe who wanted to create Twilight to redress the balance; it's a concrete person who wanted to destroy Buffy and used the laws of the Universe to reach his goal.

If this person is The Master, then the conflict becomes really juicy. Buffy isn't struggling against a nebulous concept. She fights an old enemy. Whom she killed twice (in Prophecy Girl and When She Was Bad). Who killed her twice (in Prophecy Girl and The Wish). Who hates her guts because she has ruined the Clan of Aurelius. Angel, Darla, Spike - The Master has lost them because of her. And he wants revenge. For him, it's about his family - and the girl who has destroyed it. He's a high-octane Holtz - upside down and inside out.

It's personal. It's visceral. It's exciting. It's simultaneously intimate and epic. Because such twist firmly connects season 8 with the show's mythology from all the 12 seasons of BtVS and AtS.

Of course, the question remains how The Master was brought back. Is there anybody behind him? A real puppeteer?

I doubt that Joss will introduce another Big Bad that late. Besides, Angel, the Universe and The Master - who could surpass these three?

Here's an idea about The Master's resurrection. In issue #34 we learned that space-frak created several events in the past and the future: Willow regaining her powers, Fray turning into the slayer. Could The Master's resurrection be the consequence of the space-frak? Then his primary goal was to make space-frak happen so that he could get resurrected. (It's pretty non-sensical, but time-travel doesn't make sense, period.) In any case, The Master has turned Angel into his puppet, using an old prophecy about The Twilight and appealing to Angel's ego and his desire to protect Buffy. Maybe he kept Angel in a dreamspace dimension and fed him nightmares to weaken his will and then sent him back confused and devastated.

The Master's plan goes smoothly until Spike's arrival - which is purely accidental; our Glorious Leader couldn't miss the chance to knock down Big Ben. The Master expects Angel to bring Buffy to him, like The Anointed One did in Prophecy Girl. Instead, Buffy arrives with Spike in tow. Replacing one vampire with another will most likely be the crucial factor for turning the tables in Buffy's favor (I don't see any other reason to send Angel away and deprive us from Spangel snark).

The only way to stop The Master is to break The Seed. The consequence: the end of all magic on Earth. After mucho angst, arguments and maybe fighting they'll finally break it and Buffy will get rid of the Twilight drug. She'll realise that the bestest day in her life is not-so-bestest and she'll break down (as shown in the flashback in #10).

What next? Up to this issue I was almost sure that season will end with Angel sending Buffy to hell to save the world, but, given Angel's departure, it's highly unlikely. There is a couple of interesting set-ups in the first arc, "The Long Way Home", that could echo in the last arc: Ethan Rayne's dreamspace and the kiss of true love.

And I'm sure that there will be surprises. Surprises that will make complete sense as soon as we accept them. The Master's return was a big surprise. But now, when The Master is here, the idea to bring his back seems pretty obvious from a writer's POV. The Master is the patriarch of the Aurelian clan - and he was killed off before the vampire mythology of the verse became really interesting and personalized. Most likely The Master has been growing and developing in Joss' mind as long as he was creating Angel and Darla's backstory - and finally, the creator found a way to play with a previously neglected character and give him his due.

Great idea by One True b!X - that the Twilight symbol is an upside down Sunnydale crater and the star is the Seed. Another reminder how carefully the season was plotted.

Another interesting idea - by heidishambles: that the real Anointed One is Angel, not the boy from season 1. The prophecy reads: "And there will be a time of crisis, of worlds hanging in the balance. And in this time shall come the Anointed, the Master's great warrior... The Five will die, and from their ashes the Anointed shall rise. The Brethren of Aurelius shall meet him and usher him to his immortal destiny. ...the Slayer will not know him, will not stop him, and he will lead her into hell."

"From the ashes of five" - Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, Fred, Gunn?
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Great review & interesting ideas about the close of the season.
Her personality is skewed; she's a grotesque version of the Buffy we know. In a recent interview Scott Allie said that the glow worked like a drug, "a visual representation of what was going on, the way they were infused." He added that "you should not let the characters off the hook completely for their actions. It worked like a drug, clouding your judgment, but you’re still you. You should not abandon responsibility for your actions, even if you might have acted differently if not under the influence"

I have to say I find it more than a bit hilarious that Joss would go for yet another drug metaphor story after the magic!crack debacle of S6. Seems to me the guy is totally unwilling to learn from his mistakes. Assuming Buffy and Angel are under the influence of something, the whole arc becomes nothing more than Something Blue, Band Candy or Halloween stretched way past the breaking point through silly cliffhangers and plot contrivances. Worst of all, the drug excuse gives Buffy and Angel the opportunity to not face any real consequences for their actions, something that has been Whedon's Achiles' heel for a long time, IMO.

Call me too negative, but I think Joss really, really needs to stop with that tired trick of his - having good guys going evil and then becoming good again with almost no repercussions whatsoever. If there aren't going to be any serious repercussions, what's the bloody point of the story? Randomly killing off secondary characters while letting the main ones get away with murder time and again doesn't exactly add much suspense to the story, IMO, not to mention the unfortunate moral implications.
 
Icarium - I think there will be repercussions. Big repercussions. They are epic characters. They make epic mistakes. They have epic consequences.

I don't think that Buffy can be held responsible for the current apocalypse - she was literally infused with something that woke her primal urges. Angel... I don't know. We don't know the whole picture yet. If it's part of The Master's plan to destroy Buffy, then Angel still doesn't know what's really happening. He thinks he protects Buffy.
 
Willow was hardly held to a higher standard. She was taken on holiday by Giles. She basically got a bit of a scolding and was then welcomed back with open arms by her friends. Compare her treatment to that of Faith? Who had to face actual consequences and do jail time.


Buffy and Angel have yet to meet their consequences, but they will come. And they will be BIG.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

OK, now my post makes no sense. I was replying to something lads, it's been removed. I haven't just lot it. I swear lol
 
Oh man, oh man. I'm not really sure if I should be pissed, or pleased, or what. I'm just sort of...disapointed. While Spike seems completely in character, Buffy does not.

Before I reply to everything said, I'd like to just say that I felt Buffy and Spike's interactions felt very unnatural. For Season 7, I mean, and how it was left between them. It's like Joss forgot that season ever happened. Rather, their interactions in this issue feel very Season 6 to me. Anyone else feel this way? Buffy doesn't even seem to care that he's back. No "Wow, Spike, you're alive, how did this happen?" not even a hug. Instead, it's all business. I get that Buffy's busy but come on! She expresses no surprise at all regarding his ressurection. Their interaction is disturbing in it's professionality. It's like they're business partners, not former lovers and good friends, as they were before. The issue felt rushed, and I don't like it.

I don't have the issue in front of me, but believe me, I have lots more to say regarding Angel, some things Buffy says, and the general story arc. I've been without internet so I'm having to use it in a cafe.

As Arnie says, I'll be back.
 
Everybody except Buffy and Angel are in character. Buffy calls Angel "baby".

I've read a lot of people's opinions on the OOC, both is this issue and in the season in general, and I still don't think it is fair.

I will admit that Buffy calling Angel "Baby" did slightly put me off upon first reading, as did Angel calling her "Buff". Having read the issue a couple of times again, I'm not as convinced that it is a sign of Buffy not being fully Buffy. Pet names like that are borne out of intimacy. An intimacy that Buffy and Angel hadn't been afforded...pretty much ever. The last time Buffy used an endearment when referring to Angel was when she was trying (desperately) to create a future with him. One with drawers and mirrors and overnight bags. She was planning a life with him. She said just as much during this exchange, that he was not only the love of her life but the one she wants to live her life with. So while it is something that takes a little getting used to, I don't think the use of endearments is a sign of Buffy having lost herself.

Buffy doesn't question Angel's motives.

Motives for what? Leaving with her? Staying with her? I'm slightly unclear on this point.

Buffy sends Angel to protect slayers - not everybody, but only slayers. Whom he targeted.

That's not exactly how it happened though. She sent him to go help the slayers because she says they will be the ones that will be targeted by the demons. In no way is it implied that he is not to help anyone else.

Sosa made a very good point about Buffy sending him away earlier in the thread.

Buffy's love for Angel and her forgiving nature are the reason she's giving him a second chance, like she did with all the people in her life in the past. She knows Angel can come back from this a better man, she's been in the mud herself –though less muddy than Angel's- and she came back stronger than ever. She gives Angel a second chance for redemption, because that's who Buffy is, she forgives, she believes in others' ability to make a difference, to change, to become better. Not to mention it's also what Buffy needs: she knows deep down that she can't commit to him with all the mistakes he'd recently done. She needs his redemption as much as he does.

Buffy sending Angel away to help the slayers is her demonstrating both the trust (that she says isn't there but her actions contradict. However, she has been doing that all season. She doesn't particularly trust Giles or Willow either but she continues to love them. More importantly she continues to rely on them to be part of her team.) and belief in him. She did much the same for Spike in the aftermath of SR when returned with a soul, and for Willow when she returned from England.

This is Buffy very much in character.

Angel's out of the picture, but he promised to return soon. He better. So far, Bangel arc has disappointed me, because Joss missed a chance to explore a really interesting conflict here. Clash of wills, conflict of personalities. On TV, Buffy and Angel were such fascinating characters. Joss could write an awesome story about them - about love and duty, about hard decisions and impossible choices. But he pursued titillation instead of conflict, created IWRY on steroids - a story about Angel making decisions for Buffy's good. Plus, porn. What a waste. But if Angel will be back, there may be a conflict, after all. We'll see.

Do you not thing that Joss has explored that element of their relationship already? Extensively even?

So many times I have read people remark that the Bangel story has too much duty, hard decisions and impossible conflicts. That B/A should stop lamenting their forbidden love and actually try to be together for once. Now they are doing that. It will all, more than likely, end in tears but I know I want to see this version of their story told. I already know the pain, hurt and sorrow version by heart.

Great idea by One True b!X - that the Twilight symbol is an upside down Sunnydale crater and the star is the Seed. Another reminder how carefully the season was plotted.

Oh, this is great. Reminds me of Buffy and Xander's exchange at the very beginning of the season.

Xander: I think it's a frown turned upside down...and then turned upside down again.
Buffy: So you think it's a frown.
Xander: Guy with a monocle frowning.
Buffy: You're a terrible watcher.
Xander: I'm not a watcher.
Buffy: Well, clearly!



Another interesting idea - by heidishambles: that the real Anointed One is Angel, not the boy from season 1. The prophecy reads: "And there will be a time of crisis, of worlds hanging in the balance. And in this time shall come the Anointed, the Master's great warrior... The Five will die, and from their ashes the Anointed shall rise. The Brethren of Aurelius shall meet him and usher him to his immortal destiny. ...the Slayer will not know him, will not stop him, and he will lead her into hell."

"From the ashes of five" - Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, Fred, Gunn?

Oh, this idea has real potential. Would Gunn count since his death was essentially undone?
 
Icarium - I think there will be repercussions. Big repercussions. They are epic characters. They make epic mistakes. They have epic consequences.

I don't think that Buffy can be held responsible for the current apocalypse - she was literally infused with something that woke her primal urges. Angel... I don't know. We don't know the whole picture yet. If it's part of The Master's plan to destroy Buffy, then Angel still doesn't know what's really happening. He thinks he protects Buffy.


Let's just say I will be shocked if there are any repercussions, let alone big repercussions. The Buffyverse characters have gotten so many get out of jail free cards over the years that I very much doubt the main two would really face the music any time soon. I strongly suspect Joss just wanted the big surprise of Angel being Twilight and now the priority is to come up with a semi-plausible excuse for him. Like Spike killing people in S7...but wait it was merely The First hypnotising him, so he is innocent. Basically the writers want to have their cake and eat it too. I am sick of characters going evil and then being "redeemed" with barely any consequences. Angel, Faith, Andrew, Willow, Spike, Connor, Angel again, Anya, Anya once again, Angel once more, Spike once again (not really because of the retarded plot twist with the musical control), possibly Amy, etc. The horse is long dead, the writers should stop beating him...
 
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