Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.36 "Last Gleaming Part 1" - Released 9/1/10 (Dark Horse)

I just got mine today and I'm confused, as always.

What is the seed? Where did Spike get this ship thing? Is Angel still human?
 
Is it just my imagination, or are we seeing in Season 8 a sort of "one upmanship" on Spike by Angel?

Spike always knocks the "Welcome To Sunnydale" sign over when he arrives, so Angel knocks over the much bigger "O" in the Hollywood sign.

In Season 7, Spike only talks to incorporeal images of people who are dead, but in Season 8, Angel gets to talk to real people and dogs.

In Season 7, Spike with considerable difficulty, killed one demon who popped out of the past, but in Season 8, Angel is killing monsters left and right, seemingly without even really trying that hard.

Spike was (arguably) Buffy's only equal as a fighter, so now Buffy and Angel are the only two with super powers.

Buffy and Spike tear a house down with their sex antics in "Smashed,", so Buffy and Angel rip a hole in the interdimensional barrier with theirs.

The "best day of his life" for Spike was when he just held Buffy in his arms and watched her sleep, and Buffy would only say that she was "there with him," but the "bestest day in her life" is with Angel while they're doing their version of "Smashed."

In Season 7, Spike kills a few innocent victims while under whereas in Season 8, Angel kills, or is responsible for, the deaths of of literally hundreds, if not thousands.

Spike helps Buffy's little band of Potentials fight the Bringers and the Ubervamps, so Angel is helping Buffy fight gigantic super powerful interdenominational monsters.

In "Chosen," Spike's scent is on Buffy, and Angel seems to be only irritated and suspicious about it, but in Season 8, Angel's scent is so strong on her that she has to shower in order to not be offensive to Spike.

Buffy sends Angel off to form a "second front," which is never needed, in "Chosen," but in Season 8, Angel, for all effects and purposes, IS the second front, and it is integral to Buffy's battle plan.

Of course, as a POSSIBLE plus on Spike's side,

Angel showed up at the last minute with a little bitty amulet, whereas Spike shows up in the Buffyverse version of the Beatles' yellow submarine (crewed by giant beetles, I might add), but so far we don't really know just how important it will be in the upcoming battle.

In Season 7, Buffy only accuses Angel of acting childish, whereas in Season 8 he admits that he's immature.

As I say, it may just be my imagination, those might all just be a whole lot of coincidences, but here's something to consider:

In Season 7, Spike died protecting the world. Carry my theory to its logical conclusion, and we might be seeing Angel die to save the universe.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I love this post. Great observations as always! :)
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
Interesting...
In Season 7, Spike died protecting the world. Carry my theory to its logical conclusion, and we might be seeing Angel die to save the universe
Click to expand...

This is actualy what I'm hoping will happen. If redemption is possible for Angel after all he's done, I think this might be the way to it. I think it would be very powerful if Angel sacrificed himself to save the universe.
 
white avenger said:
Is it just my imagination, or are we seeing in Season 8 a sort of "one upmanship" on Spike by Angel?

Spike always knocks the "Welcome To Sunnydale" sign over when he arrives, so Angel knocks over the much bigger "O" in the Hollywood sign.

In Season 7, Spike only talks to incorporeal images of people who are dead, but in Season 8, Angel gets to talk to real people and dogs.

In Season 7, Spike with considerable difficulty, killed one demon who popped out of the past, but in Season 8, Angel is killing monsters left and right, seemingly without even really trying that hard.

Spike was (arguably) Buffy's only equal as a fighter, so now Buffy and Angel are the only two with super powers.

Buffy and Spike tear a house down with their sex antics in "Smashed,", so Buffy and Angel rip a hole in the interdimensional barrier with theirs.

The "best day of his life" for Spike was when he just held Buffy in his arms and watched her sleep, and Buffy would only say that she was "there with him," but the "bestest day in her life" is with Angel while they're doing their version of "Smashed."

In Season 7, Spike kills a few innocent victims while under whereas in Season 8, Angel kills, or is responsible for, the deaths of of literally hundreds, if not thousands.

Spike helps Buffy's little band of Potentials fight the Bringers and the Ubervamps, so Angel is helping Buffy fight gigantic super powerful interdenominational monsters.

In "Chosen," Spike's scent is on Buffy, and Angel seems to be only irritated and suspicious about it, but in Season 8, Angel's scent is so strong on her that she has to shower in order to not be offensive to Spike.

Buffy sends Angel off to form a "second front," which is never needed, in "Chosen," but in Season 8, Angel, for all effects and purposes, IS the second front, and it is integral to Buffy's battle plan.

Of course, as a POSSIBLE plus on Spike's side,

Angel showed up at the last minute with a little bitty amulet, whereas Spike shows up in the Buffyverse version of the Beatles' yellow submarine (crewed by giant beetles, I might add), but so far we don't really know just how important it will be in the upcoming battle.

In Season 7, Buffy only accuses Angel of acting childish, whereas in Season 8 he admits that he's immature.

As I say, it may just be my imagination, those might all just be a whole lot of coincidences, but here's something to consider:

In Season 7, Spike died protecting the world. Carry my theory to its logical conclusion, and we might be seeing Angel die to save the universe.
Click to expand...

A few key differences between Spike in season 7 and Angel in season 8 is that Spike didn't willingly kill anyone the trigger and the First forced him to, Angel did kill all those people willingly. Another difference is Spike gave damm about the people he killed and took responsibilty for it, Angel hasn't really taken any responsibility for his actions instead blames governments, the universe, demons, humans, the slayers, Buffy, but not himself. Spike is not a big picture thinker and would not rationalize the murder of the slayers he died to save along with the world. Angel isn't the second front like he was in Chosen, Buffy sent Angel away because he was a source of conflict for the group, and a distraction and she thought he had damage to make up for hardly the same thing. Spike showed up in a time need, but at least space ship was not from the same source Angel's amulet was, which the evil corporation of W&H, Spike never sold him sell out for his ship, which makes it different the source isn't from a compromised source at least from what we know right now. Angel is responsible for the demons, Spike wasn't responsible for the ubervampes the First was.I agree with a few of the similiarites you made here, but some of them really are very different than what happened in season 7.
 
citiegal17 said:
.I agree with a few of the similarities you made here, but some of them really are very different than what happened in season 7.
Click to expand...

I was only pointing out the similarities between the actions themselves and the almost "anything you can do, I can do better" way that what Angel has done compares to what Spike did, not motivation, attitude, rationalization, or interpretation of "the big picture." Angel will always justify his actions as being "for the greater good," or "in his/her best interest." It always seems to me that Angel's "big picture" is mostly whatever he decides that it should be.
 
white avenger said:
I was only pointing out the similarities between the actions themselves and the almost "anything you can do, I can do better" way that what Angel has done compares to what Spike did, not motivation, attitude, rationalization, or interpretation of "the big picture." Angel will always justify his actions as being "for the greater good," or "in his/her best interest." It always seems to me that Angel's "big picture" is mostly whatever he decides that it should be.
Click to expand...

He's not always wrong, though, just sometimes misguided.
 
The Spike-Buffy meeting was so weirdly, completely understated that it sent me scurrying to this board and the Internet to see if I missed the part where Buffy found out about him. But no, that's apparently just the way they did it. There was a good discussion in 8.31 "Turbulence" about a writer's note that Buffy found out 'off-panel.' I totally agree with the gist, that it was far too significant a moment to skip over.

But it's not even as weird as Spike showing up in a bug-run ship with no explanation whatsoever. Again, I thought I'd missed something, but again, they just didn't bother to explain it until a later series. So far, it's just a 'deus ex machina' to conveniently transport people from Tibet to Sunnydale.

Still, for what this part does include, I thought it was pretty good. If I can hear the actors' voices saying the dialogue, it rings true to me. Not too much battle scenes, and the demons are very cool; they're clearly enjoying not being on a budget with the hell critters. And it had several funny moments, like Willow's 'oops' fly-by frog spell on Angel, and Spike's "Jusst keep talking" to the earnest woman advocating vampire rights.

I can see that, with the backstories, Angel and Spike are being set up to oppose each other, which is their favorite situation!

And the Master's back. Does no bad guy ever stay dead in this series?
 
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