Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)

[EuroBirdV8]

I read all issues on a few days but i´m curious so i´m asking everybody who waited 4 or 5 years for this. Was it worth it?

Season 8 has not end yet😉

 

[SpaceLord]

I disagree with all the people that are upset about Giles death, you should rejoice. I mean now his character won't be dragged through the mud that is the comics 😀

 

[Litheran]

Season 8 has not end yet😉

Possibly the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

StarSlayer agrees: But, the love of her life? Eh, lol!

Well, I didn't say I was happy about this, but it is a fact. Buffy is still undeniabely in love with Angel.

Spike is clearly the one for her, of course, but she hasn't realized that yet 😉

Question for everyone:

There's been lots of talk throughout the fandom about Season 8 being an "adult" version of Season 2. How do you respond to this statement?

 

[zobothehobo]

There's been lots of talk throughout the fandom about Season 8 being an "adult" version of Season 2. How do you respond to this statement?

I think that's nonsense. People say that because Angel's the big bad but I think it's nonsense. I see some parallels to season 2... but the big one is Angel is the big bad. Other than that... not really seeing the season 2 in season 8.

 

[Litheran]

Well, I didn't say I was happy about this, but it is a fact. Buffy is still undeniabely in love with Angel.

Spike is clearly the one for her, of course, but she hasn't realized that yet 😉

Question for everyone:

There's been lots of talk throughout the fandom about Season 8 being an "adult" version of Season 2. How do you respond to this statement?

I think it's been a watery version of number two!

😱

Sorry, lot of pent up emotions; I guess I can sort of see it. I don't understand how they think anyone would enjoy it; but okay, enjoy tapping that well. Just make sure to test your blowout preventer...ZING!

 

[Icarium]

I disagree with all the people that are upset about Giles death, you should rejoice. I mean now his character won't be dragged through the mud that is the comics 😀

Good to see I am not the only who shares this opinion.

But season 8 has also been about Buffy, Xander, & Willow finally growing up and becoming full adults. Which means that you need to get ride of the mentor/parent figure. So think about who's was the father figure/mentor to the other three. That would be Giles. In that respect Giles death makes sense.

First, personally I don't think any of the three did any growing up in season eight. Buffy and Willow are merely repeating their mistakes from previous years and Xander only got back to being useful, the way he was back back in seasons 1-3. Second, none of the three have received any mentoring from Giles in years, unless we count his brief stint as Dumbledore for Willow in the beginning of S7.

What i don´t get is why Joss decided to let him do such horrible things? His character isn´t flawless but the Twilight arc doesn´t made sense at all.

Joss is repeating himself. Season 8's main story arc is blatant combo of BtVS S2 and AtS S4. Joss doesn't seem to able to write a story without having one of the good guys turn bad. It's getting really tiresome, IMO. The endless betrayals and whitewashing...er, I mean "redemption". Can't he for once allow for a main character to, you know, get some punishment for all the murders they are committing?

There's been lots of talk throughout the fandom about Season 8 being an "adult" version of Season 2. How do you respond to this statement?

The same way I would respond to the statement that "Twilight" is more mature than Shakespeare:

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

2maggie2 has some interesting thoughts on the latest issue.

But the key in making that make sense is to remember what Willow told us in Time of Your Life. It's not so much who dies as it is who kills them. The dramatic key was that Angel was going to kill someone major. In a season all about fantasy, Buffy's choice to relapse into her fantasy about Angel had to prove costly. Choosing Giles as the victim then follows. The last time Buffy got swept up in her romantic fog about Angel, he brutally snapped Jenny's neck. That was the first signal that the 'verse was going to play for real stakes. But it wasn't uber-tragic. Jenny was most important to Giles. Buffy, on the other hand, had used Jenny as a bit of a scapegoat in the whole Surprise/Innocence fiasco. This time, Buffy's romantic fog about Angel cost her directly.

Buffy's love life destroyed Giles' love life. Now Buffy's love life has destroyed Giles.

Too many of the characters were clinging too hard to their fantasies and illusions. Dawn smashed through hers in #25. Buffy doesn't manage it until the bitter end. It adds another layer of resonance to Giles as the sacrificial lamb of the story. He's the one Buffy had begged to lie to her back in season 2. Now those lies have killed him and Buffy has declared "no more". Now she's going to have to grow up.

Willow has never known who she is, she's been so busy spinning stories and wearing costumes. She is in a world of hurt right now.

Twilight played all the right notes in Angel's own web of self-deceit. "Reward", "destiny", "Buffy". That's why he was the one who had to play this role. Allie has confirmed that Spike could not have been seduced as Angel was. Lots of folks see this Angel as being tremendously out of character. I don't.

Giles may have thought that Buffy and Angel are the best of their kind -- but what he meant was that Buffy and Angel are the protagonists. We've just smashed the illusion that the protagonists are 'better' than the side kicks. It's the slayer and the vampire who don't think of themselves as the big heroes who are doing the yoemen like work of just trying to help.

Expect Faith, Spike, Xander and Dawn to play important roles. In the brave new world, they are the ones who are already veterans in the battle of making meaning in a hard world in an adult way.

http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/35232.html#cutid1

I'm curious to what people think of her essay. It sparked a lot of thought in me. I feel in many ways that we're right back to the uncertainty of Once More, With Feeling

where do we go from here?

Theories? What will the next season look like? Who will play a major role? What is next for Buffy?

 

[zobothehobo]

Joss doesn't seem to able to write a story without having one of the good guys turn bad.

What about seasons 1,4,5, and 7 of Buffy (3 if you don't count Faith being a good guy... I don't count her as a good guy because she's never really trusted) and seasons 1, 2, and 5 of Ats? That's 7(8)/13 possible seasons that don't have a good guy becoming a bad guy.

 

[white avenger]

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if Joss hasn't deliberately assassinated Angel's character and destroyed all faith in him by a very large portion of the fan base because of some as yet unrevealed agenda here. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be doing all of this just to please the Spuffy faction, but he absolutely MUST have known what he was doing and what the reaction would be when he had Angel willingly allow himself to be used by Twilight, to knowingly kill all of those people, to put the entire universe in jeopardy, and, finally, to kill the closest thing to a father Buffy has had during the entire series. As sadistic as Joss seems to be at times, he has never done anything yet just for the sake of doing it, and I can't see him starting now. Joss Whedon is up to something, something in all likelihood just short of stupendous, but I guess that we're going to have to wait until next season for the Big Reveal.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

As sadistic as Joss seems to be at times, he has never done anything yet just for the sake of doing it

Season six sure felt that way.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

A thought occurred to me just now;

If all magic has been destroyed, what about Dawn? She's a mystical key. Do you think she still exists? We saw everyone else but her after the seed was smashed, right?

 

[zobothehobo]

A thought occurred to me just now;

If all magic has been destroyed, what about Dawn? She's a mystical key. Do you think she still exists? We saw everyone else but her after the seed was smashed, right?

I saw an interview with someone somewhere that said Dawn's still alive.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What about seasons 1,4,5, and 7 of Buffy (3 if you don't count Faith being a good guy... I don't count her as a good guy because she's never really trusted) and seasons 1, 2, and 5 of Ats? That's 7(8)/13 possible seasons that don't have a good guy becoming a bad guy.

Actually, the biggest and best betrayal Joss wrote, imo, never aired. Having Doyle being the Big Bad of AS4 would've been epic, given he seemed to be the one guy in 200 years that Angel considered a true friend as opposed to his rivals, allies, and lovers.

Given the fact that Dark Horse explicitly said they want to turn the Buffyverse into a comic franchise in the scope of the original Marvel Universe, I strongly doubt Giles will stay dead. Marvel has what, over a dozen major heroes with over a hundred secondary ones? The current Buffyverse really only has Buffy, Faith, Spike, Connor, and Xander as heroes at the moment. Angel, Gunn & Willow are going through breakdowns, and most of the LA faction is incorporeal for one reason or another.

 

[Icarium]

What about seasons 1,4,5, and 7 of Buffy (3 if you don't count Faith being a good guy... I don't count her as a good guy because she's never really trusted) and seasons 1, 2, and 5 of Ats? That's 7(8)/13 possible seasons that don't have a good guy becoming a bad guy.

Maggie Walsh in season 4. Ben (sort of) in season 5. Anya (in the first few episodes), Spike (I know, I know, trigger but an awful lot of time is wasted on this misdirection) and later Giles and everyone who "betrayed" Buffy" in season 7.

Really, season 2 of AtS? Beige Angel anyone? Season 5 - Wesley most obviously but arguably the entire cast were compromised by working for W&H. Then Angel once again when he pretty much caused Drogyn's death. Fred turns into Illyria who is evil. Harmony betrays the group in the final episode. It's full of this trope, IMO.

As sadistic as Joss seems to be at times, he has never done anything yet just for the sake of doing it

Really? Even Xander being the culprit for the sake of the queen joke in OMWF?

 

[zobothehobo]

Maggie Walsh in season 4. Ben (sort of) in season 5. Anya (in the first few episodes), Spike (I know, I know, trigger but an awful lot of time is wasted on this misdirection) and later Giles and everyone who "betrayed" Buffy" in season 7.

I NEVER considered Maggie Walsh a "good guy." Ben didn't become the big bad, he shared his body with the big bad. Anya did not become the big bad... nor did Spike. And the betrayal of Empty places were good guys thinking they were doing the right thing (although clearly wrong)... not good guys becoming the big bad.

 

[Icarium]

I NEVER considered Maggie Walsh a "good guy."

Good for you, but the important thing is that Buffy did. So when Maggie shows her true colours, this does count as betrayal as far as Buffy is concerned. Ditto for Ben.

 

[citiegal17]

Willow has never known who she is, she's been so busy spinning stories and wearing costumes. She is in a world of hurt right now.

Did I miss a scene or something, was Willow talking about destiny or something, if so I missed that part? Willow told her to protect the seed, since Buffy didn't Willlow could be paralyzed so I don't seeing how she lied about the importance of protecting the seed. I don't think Willow deserves to be paralyzed since its Buffy who betrayed Willow in the first place, which caused the diaster. Destroying the seed was just a tempoary solution, as shown in TOYL. If Buffy hadn't betrayed herself in the first place, the world wouldn't be endangerd, and they wouldn't have to destroy the seed since Twilight couldn't give birth to itself. Willow may be insecure but who isn't, that doesn't make it okay for Buffy to betray her, just to fix a mistake she made.

 

[zobothehobo]

Good for you, but the important thing is that Buffy did. So when Maggie shows her true colours, this does count as betrayal as far as Buffy is concerned. Ditto for Ben.

So what you meant to say was that these seasons weren't good guys who became bad guys... they were bad guys Buffy thought were good guys?

 

[VisionGirl]

How did Buffy betray Willow? Did she promise Willow she wouldn't break the Seed? (I'll have to look back, but I don't think so). Also, Buffy never knew the full extent that Willow was invested in the Seed.

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

I´m more concerned about how Faith will react if she finds out. She and Giles shared a special bond throughout season 8 and now he is dead. Faith wouldn´t kill Angel that´s for sure but can she forgive him?

Well, Jeanty says that Faith does something "remarkable" in regards to forgiving Angel, so we shall see. I share your worry for Faith- she had a respectful relationship with Giles this season that i think was helping her evolve when it came to relationships. They also shared a purpose. I'm not sure where that leaves her for s9.

Given the fact that Dark Horse explicitly said they want to turn the Buffyverse into a comic franchise in the scope of the original Marvel Universe, I strongly doubt Giles will stay dead. Marvel has what, over a dozen major heroes with over a hundred secondary ones? The current Buffyverse really only has Buffy, Faith, Spike, Connor, and Xander as heroes at the moment. Angel, Gunn & Willow are going through breakdowns, and most of the LA faction is incorporeal for one reason or another.

I almost don't want to completely acknowledge Giles' death since I'm not convinced yet it's permanent. It probably is, but I want it confirmed. So, I'm kind of holding my breath.