Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)

[Spikefan31]

Litheran agrees: If only we had a Delorean handy; I could go back seven years and warn Joss not to go with DH. =D

I have no idea what a Delorean is, but I totally agree and if you did have one I would be all for it. 😀

Like Anya2010, I will forever hate Angel for this. 😡

Sorry to Angel fans for my anti-Angelness right now, though I suppose it's worse for them, because their hero has fallen so far. 🙁

 

[Anya2012]

I'm actually in tears, literally. Giles is and always will be my favourite. Angel can go to hell. Seriously.

 

[Kean]

Wow, I guess the U.S. is the last place to receive this issue.

My condolences to the Bangels here on the board. Looks like the end of the line. 🙁

Honestly? I sincerely doubt that. I'm not just digging my heels in and refusing to accept the reality of what Twilight!Angel has done, but the thing is, Angel is no more responsible for this than Cordy is for killing Lilah. More to the point we have all lived through season 2 before. This is annoyingly similar.

I know there will be very few who see it that way and really, Angel is as good as finished in a lot of fandom's eyes but this is still not as bad as I had envisioned.

I wonder, has the Giles/Buffy relationship deliberately been strained all this season in order to lessen the blow of his loss?

I have questions though:

-Who was the betrayer?
-What was the point? Was this whole season just to set up Fray's world?
-What remarkable thing did Faith do? Hand over the Scythe?


There is so much that is underwhelming about this issue and arc. Maybe's it's the 4 year wait but seriously, really lacking in the emotion that these events should carry.

 

[Taake]

Sorry to Angel fans for my anti-Angelness right now, though I suppose it's worse for them, because their hero has fallen so far. 🙁

I'm not that upset. It's like Kean said - it's like when Cordy killed Lilah - that didn't ruin Cordy for me and this didn't ruin Angel. Sad to see that those are the reactions though

 

[Kean]

I'm not that upset. It's like Kean said - it's like when Cordy killed Lilah - that didn't ruin Cordy for me and this didn't ruin Angel. Sad to see that those are the reactions though

I agree. The reactions of others is the worse part of this for me. Angel hasn't been ruined but I know a lot of people will disagree.

 

[Anya2012]

^^Too late, I'm already bashing Angel. Sorry Angel-fans

 

[nmcil12]

I'm not that upset. It's like Kean said - it's like when Cordy killed Lilah - that didn't ruin Cordy for me and this didn't ruin Angel. Sad to see that those are the reactions though

There are still too many questions about his choices and the entire premise of the terrifying slayer prophecy left unanswered.

It's not so much that many fans can't forgive Angel as it is the idea of how many times are we suppose to simply accept that he was being under the influence of an outside force.

 

[Kean]

There are still too many questions about his choices and the entire premise of the terrifying slayer prophecy left unanswered.

It's not so much that many fans can't forgive Angel as it is the idea of how many times are we suppose to simply accept that he was being under the influence of an outside force.

He has blood on his hands. There is no question of that. Angel's greatest flaw is hubris and it is this that started him out on this road. He spent very little time thinking of the reality and consequences of what he was doing. He was a trusting fool and next season he will have to try and redeem himself, as much as he possible can. I don't doubt that he can though.

On top of that we have the Scoobies, who in their own way, failed to consequences of their actions. They all abused their power and positions. The potentials should never have happened but the sad fact is that they couldn't have known that when they preformed the spell. It does not make Buffy and co's hands any less red. Giles himself spent a good deal of the first half of the season seeking a way to kill slayers and entangled Faith in that too.

No one is innocent in this situation. I'd just like the know what the point of putting all the characters through this was?

 

[Taake]

No one is innocent in this situation. I'd just like the know what the point of putting all the characters through this was?

Hear hear, I'm curious to see how this will all be resolved cause right now it just feels like all the characters are moving away from the place where I used to like them

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't know what Angel did that was so bad? He killed one human for what he thought was the greater good. Giles has killed humans before and he was cheered. From Angel's perspective he was doing as right a thing as Giles was when he killed Ben.

---------- Post added at 07:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 AM ----------

I'd just like the know what the point of putting all the characters through this was?

$$$ honestly.. what could any other reason be? The comics (sorry to use this word) raped the series of everything it was and for all it stood.

 

[Kean]

I don't know what Angel did that was so bad? He killed one human for what he thought was the greater good. Giles has killed humans before and he was cheered. From Angel's perspective he was doing as right a thing as Giles was when he killed Ben.

That's the thing though, it was Twilight that killed him, not Angel. In this particular incident, Angel had no say or influence at all. He was completely possessed by Twilight.

I do agree with your sentiment though. This was a collective failure.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Twilight/Angel

I am not buying it anymore.. I could tell Angel from Angelus easy enough.. but I think Angel killing Giles as Twilight is a cop out. Just like when Whedon wanted Angel to kill Jenny with his Angel face but thought fans could never forgive him so he had him wear the GRR face.. it just seems very formulaic. The whole season. When things get dicy its go for the easy 'stock' answer. Hey, it worked once, it can work again and again and again.

The only bit of question left is how the scythe gets put back together... to all accounts it should not be put back together until Fray's timeline, as the scythe 'holds' the magic and demons.

 

[Kean]

I am not buying it anymore.. I could tell Angel from Angelus easy enough.. but I think Angel killing Giles as Twilight is a cop out. Just like when Whedon wanted Angel to kill Jenny with his Angel face but thought fans could never forgive him so he had him wear the GRR face.. it just seems very formulaic. The whole season. When things get dicy its go for the easy 'stock' answer. Hey, it worked once, it can work again and again and again.

Formulaic or not, it's fact. They go to lengths in the issue to show that Twilight is something very different from Angel and Angelus.

I'm not saying it isn't boring or tiresome but canon is canon.

As much as I hate to say it, I think S8 will has become another tick in the pro-column for the show ending with The Gift.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Formulaic or not, it's fact. They go to lengths in the issue to show that Twilight is something very different from Angel and Angelus.

I know. It just really irks me. Not that Giles died and Angel did it.. or x, y and zed happens, just that we KNEW it would happen, or expected or, you know what I mean. There was no shock. You can call it canon, but I will go back to my 'its not the show, its not canon' approach. Its not season 8, its Buffy in the comics... there was no season 8 as far as I am concerned. I had hope reading the reviews of some of the issues that maybe things were working out, but.. there was no spark.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Honestly? I sincerely doubt that. I'm not just digging my heels in and refusing to accept the reality of what Twilight!Angel has done, but the thing is, Angel is no more responsible for this than Cordy is for killing Lilah. More to the point we have all lived through season 2 before. This is annoyingly similar.

But how many times can you watch your boyfriend... whether ethically responsible for his actions or not... torture and slaughter your closest friends before the spark just dies?

This apocalypse... including the deaths of Giles, almost all the Slayers, and God knows how many other people around the world... happened because they were together. They may be in love, but it's impossible to deny that their love now comes with a staggering body count attached. If that doesn't convince them both that they can never be together in this lifetime, then they really need to examine their priorities. They need to admit that there are more important things than their love. It's tragic and unfair, but Doomed Love has been a major theme in literature for centuries, and in Joss's stories more so than usual.

For the good of the world, they both need to move on. They may continue to be in love, but they can never be together again.

 

[Kean]

I know. It just really irks me. Not that Giles died and Angel did it.. or x, y and zed happens, just that we KNEW it would happen, or expected or, you know what I mean. There was no shock. You can call it canon, but I will go back to my 'its not the show, its not canon' approach. Its not season 8, its Buffy in the comics... there was no season 8 as far as I am concerned. I had hope reading the reviews of some of the issues that maybe things were working out, but.. there was no spark.

I hear you. This just hasn't quite worked out, has it? There has been parts that I have loved but ultimately this season has not quite hit the marks it showed potential for early on.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

But how many times can you watch your boyfriend... whether ethically responsible for his actions or not... torture and slaughter your closest friends before the spark just dies?

This apocalypse... including the deaths of Giles, almost all the Slayers, and God knows how many other people around the world... happened because they were together. They may be in love, but it's impossible to deny that their love now comes with a staggering body count attached. If that doesn't convince them both that they can never be together in this lifetime, then they really need to examine their priorities. They need to admit that there are more important things than their love. It's tragic and unfair, but Doomed Love has been a major theme in literature for centuries, and in Joss's stories more so than usual.

For the good of the world, they both need to move on. They may continue to be in love, but they can never be together again.

I actually agree with you (well mostly) but I don't believe that this will happen. When I say that I mean that I don't think Buffy and Angel will make the conscious decision to do that. Angel will go away, retreat from humanity and try to atone. Buffy will struggle with what has happened and the role she has played but I genuinely don't think they will decide that they must stay away from each other forever. Not when so much that went wrong because of magic. In a magicless world I can see them edging back together.

I just cannot see the characters, or Joss for that matter, putting a cap on this. Especially now that Angel is at DH. The story will continue (much as it has since he left Sunnydale), that is almost a certainty I think.

In a lot of ways the status quo has just been re-established.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

Scobro agrees: You mentioned The Chain before... the whole season should have been that.. THAT was classic Buffy. It had that... vibe

And the irony of that? Buffy wasn't even really in that issue.

 

[Litheran]

Buffy has officially jumped the...

 

[frankie]

Wow. I guess I really am done with Angel. When I read "Buffy knocks Angel down with a huge BAM, grabs the scythe and thinks 'No More' and smashes the seed." I was actually hoping for " grabs the scythe and thinks 'No More' and chops Angel's head off and then smashes the seed."😀 Haven't read the issue yet, my nearest comic shop is 2 hours away and I'm snowed In. I want to read it even though I know it'll be crap - stupid season 8.

 

[Litheran]

I don't hate Angel, but I do loathe this impostor they're tossing onto these panels and forcing into our faces. Angel and Spike are neck and neck for being my favorite vampire with a soul.

I just happen to be more like Spike (The Rebel Loser). But my Irish pride is starting to tickle and before all is said and done someone's gonna be kissing the hard side of my frakking Blarneystone. Both of them have been sandwiched between these pages not to serve the story or plot but the "perceived" wishes of shippers by Joss & Co.

I've told people this before; in the end who Buffy decides to be with doesn't matter to me as much as that the story feels right. Obviously I root for Spike but as long as he's not just relegated to odd man out at the end of the day I'd accept 🙂mad🙂 Buffy being with Angel.

I think all of us are sick and tired of having this drawn out because it doesn't satisfy anyone except the people getting paid. I'm a masculinist myself but by believing that I don't not believe in feminism; I see both sexes as having the right to be what they're meant to be.

And frankly I'm tired of Pebbles & Bam Bam (I love my pet names.) being Buffy's whipping boys.

If this is what I have to put up with to get even the pitiful excuse for Spuffy we got this season; I might start getting my Spangel on....in a totally friends way. 😛

 

[white avenger]

Okay, I haven't read the issue yet, but from what I have read here, I have this to say:

If Joss had originally planned for Issue #40 just to be an epilogue or a set up for what's coming in Season 9, he had better re-think his plans, because there's just too much left hanging here to consider this to be an end to anything.

Angel, whether as himself, Angelus, Twilight, or whatever other persona you care to give him, is responsible for, or at least directly involved in, way too much death and destruction to just walk away muttering to himself. There has to be some sort of atonement for his actions, and it should be on a scale that makes the Twelve Labors of Hercules look like a weekend project.

What is the fate of Faith and the other surviving Slayers? With all magic expelled from earth, will there still be demons and vampires to fight, or can they all just go home?

Also, if magic IS completely expelled from the world, are we then to assume that Giles is permanently dead? (Almost certainly so, and while I'm sure that a lot of Giles fans will argue, he was the logical one of the original cast to die. His original role as mentor and father figure really isn't needed anymore. It does make any future "Ripper" series highly problematical, of course)

With no magic left, what is to become of Willow? Over the course of this season, and even in the latter part of Season 7, her entire contribution to the team was her power as a witch. Without that, what does she have?

As for Spike, if Tranquility's summary is complete, when we last saw him, he was in hot pursuit of Willow's vagina demon (god, but I just realized how that must sound!) headed off toward parts unknown. Why did that particular demon not get sucked away with all of the rest? Or did it get sucked away, and Spike got sucked away right along with it?

I can't see leaving all of that hanging, and then just have another issue not addressing any or all of it before the season ends.