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Discussion of Angel 11.10 - Released 10/25/17 (Dark Horse)

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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The curse is ridiculous at this point and needs to be dealt with already. Regardless of Bangel/Spuffy crap. Respect your audience enough to know that with all of the things that can be accomplished in the 'verse fixing the curse should be an easy fix, its a safety measure really. And then stop with the implicit Buffy and Angel are apart due to the curse contrivances. Give them the free will to be apart as a matter of choice if you want, that is fine with me.
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
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There wouldn't be anything to gain from the Bangels - they have already bailed from the comics.

Well, not all of us. Not yet, at least, though I couldn't help interpreting the ending of the two issues this month as Dark Horse begging me to stop giving them money. :)

The curse is ridiculous at this point and needs to be dealt with already.

I doubt the writers want to give up that plot device, unfortunately. Although, I'm starting to think I might prefer them to kill Angel off rather than continue running his character into the ground.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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I doubt the writers want to give up that plot device, unfortunately. Although, I'm starting to think I might prefer them to kill Angel off rather than continue running his character into the ground.

I know what you mean but :(:(:(:(:(:(
 
Grace
Grace
I know, I know.

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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You know I recall when Dark Horse bought the rights for Angel I was super freaking excited. I naively thought it should mean more crossovers and stupidly believed it would give Bangel a shot. I regret supporting that decision. If I knew Dark Horse was just going to drive Angel to the ground I would have rather he stayed far away from the Buffy comics.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Finally read it :) My first thoughts were that this was simply comfort. Angel had been through a very emotional time with his father and Kathy (is that ring going to be important?). Angel is essentially suicidal and Illyria is comforting him as best she knows how. This is what she's learnt from Fred and Wesley, this is how she has seen humans give comfort. Is she capable of romantic love?

This season has been very poor, but this issue has made up for a lot. I loved Angel's flashback to his own childhood and the little boy he was. His talk with Kathy was very sweet, and reliving the horror of her death was quite moving. A very emotional issue and I hope they can keep this momentum till the end of the season. Actually really excited to see where it goes.

Illyria could life Angel's curse, which means he is free to love whom he chooses. This could mean bringing the two titles together for a S12. Faith is already over in SF with Buffy, so another crossover is possible. I'm looking forward to seeing Fred's reaction to all this. This season is now wide open for anything to happen.
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
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Finally read it :) My first thoughts were that this was simply comfort. Angel had been through a very emotional time with his father and Kathy (is that ring going to be important?). Angel is essentially suicidal and Illyria is comforting him as best she knows how. This is what she's learnt from Fred and Wesley, this is how she has seen humans give comfort. Is she capable of romantic love?

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure, but the fact that she and Fred have become more closely tied together over the course of the season could mean that the idea we have of Illyria and Fred as two wholly separate characters could be changing.

I also feel compelled by comments elsewhere to clarify that I do not think the Angel and Illyria kiss is character assassination for Angel (though I can understand why people would get that impression based on my comments). I do have problems with an actual pairing for the reasons that @dcai0830 outlined, but we don't know where it's going yet. The thing I was referring to as running Angel's character into the ground is this idea that he's a constant screw-up, as underlined by the teaser copy for the next issue.

I also don't understand how they can focus on Angel's love for his family but mess it up so badly when it comes to Connor. I have a serious problem with the idea of Angel writing Connor off in a sentence or two, considering all he's done and given up in the past to give Connor a better life, and now that the two of them are actually on good terms and Connor is happy.

Angel has been effectively regressed back to Amends, when another higher power stopped him from offing himself with some miracle snow. But what brought Angel back to this exceedingly low point? For what reason have we wiped out five seasons of character growth on TV and the rebuilding done in A&F 9 and 10 following the Twilight ridiculousness? It seems like the answer is "time-travel adventure, yay!" which is not enough of a reason for me.

This could mean bringing the two titles together for a S12.

Would that actually be a good thing, though? We barely got any storyline for Xander and Dawn in S11, and Giles has to have a miniseries so he can have some. Faith was deemed so incidental to the overall story that she got re-empowered in a scene we didn't even see. Combining the books would mean a bigger cast with even less time for everyone.
 

EarthLogic

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I do have problems with an actual pairing for the reasons that @dcai0830 outlined, but we don't know where it's going yet. The thing I was referring to as running Angel's character into the ground is this idea that he's a constant screw-up, as underlined by the teaser copy for the next issue.

I also don't understand how they can focus on Angel's love for his family but mess it up so badly when it comes to Connor. I have a serious problem with the idea of Angel writing Connor off in a sentence or two, considering all he's done and given up in the past to give Connor a better life, and now that the two of them are actually on good terms and Connor is happy.

Angel has been effectively regressed back to Amends, when another higher power stopped him from offing himself with some miracle snow. But what brought Angel back to this exceedingly low point? For what reason have we wiped out five seasons of character growth on TV and the rebuilding done in A&F 9 and 10 following the Twilight ridiculousness? It seems like the answer is "time-travel adventure, yay!" which is not enough of a reason for me.
I agree SO MUCH with this it almost brings me to tears.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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That's an interesting question. I'm not sure, but the fact that she and Fred have become more closely tied together over the course of the season could mean that the idea we have of Illyria and Fred as two wholly separate characters could be changing.

Yes it's going to be interesting to see how Fred reacts to this. She's always liked Angel, so I cannot see her being too upset. Fred and Illyria are essentially one person, so kissing one is the same as kissing the other.

I also feel compelled by comments elsewhere to clarify that I do not think the Angel and Illyria kiss is character assassination for Angel (though I can understand why people would get that impression based on my comments). I do have problems with an actual pairing for the reasons that @dcai0830 outlined, but we don't know where it's going yet. The thing I was referring to as running Angel's character into the ground is this idea that he's a constant screw-up, as underlined by the teaser copy for the next issue.

That teaser was uncalled for, but I think it was done for humourous purposes. It would seem stupid for the publishers to be offensive to their lead character and therefore alienating their readership. It does make me wonder what their intentions for this comic are.

I also don't understand how they can focus on Angel's love for his family but mess it up so badly when it comes to Connor. I have a serious problem with the idea of Angel writing Connor off in a sentence or two, considering all he's done and given up in the past to give Connor a better life, and now that the two of them are actually on good terms and Connor is happy.

I have a very different perception about Angel's behaviour towards Connor than most fans and I think it's quite believable that Angel would write Connor off in a sentence or two. For all intents and purposes he wrote Connor off the moment he wiped his memory.

I hadn't looked properly at the cover art for this issue, but now I see that it shows Angel with stigmata, which of course ties in with Illyria, Twilight and perhaps the writers are meaning for us to draw a inference about Angel's perceived god complex.

Would that actually be a good thing, though? We barely got any storyline for Xander and Dawn in S11, and Giles has to have a miniseries so he can have some. Faith was deemed so incidental to the overall story that she got re-empowered in a scene we didn't even see. Combining the books would mean a bigger cast with even less time for everyone.

I'm not sure it would be a 'good' thing, but it might be an interesting and compelling thing, especially if the publishers wanted to end the run of either one or both titles. I thought concetrating on 3 main characters worked perfectly for this shorter run season. I don't think Faith was sidelined at all and was an integral part of the action, putting a spotlight on her relationship with Buffy which seemed much improved.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Yes it's going to be interesting to see how Fred reacts to this. She's always liked Angel, so I cannot see her being too upset. Fred and Illyria are essentially one person, so kissing one is the same as kissing the other.

I feel like Fred moved Angel into the friend zone pretty quickly in early Season 3 and there he stayed. But I guess we shall see how she feels about the kiss.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I feel like Fred moved Angel into the friend zone pretty quickly in early Season 3 and there he stayed. But I guess we shall see how she feels about the kiss.

It's going to be interesting to see where they take this story. It could raise issues of consent, depending on how Fred feels. Even if she is happy for Illyria and Angel, she certainly wouldn't be happy with them using the body she's in, or one wouldn't think so.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Agreed

Grace

Destructo-Girl
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That teaser was uncalled for, but I think it was done for humourous purposes. It would seem stupid for the publishers to be offensive to their lead character and therefore alienating their readership. It does make me wonder what their intentions for this comic are.

Yeah, I get that it was meant to be funny. They may even mean it affectionately. But it's the kind of joke that doesn't work unless you think it's essentially true. Thus, I didn't laugh, I got annoyed.
 

Mylie

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It's been clear to me that Joss and co don't care one iota about Angel the moment they saw how good s9 of Angel and Faith was and decided to move Gage and Isaac's to the BtVS side. It seems Angel's side isn't allowed to be better than Buffy's. They have to take whatever made it good and give it to BtVS because that is the priority for them. They don't care that this happened to Angel's detriment. Not that I should have been surprised with season 8's fiasco.

I guess the only way any of this could be fixed is if someone who gets and loves the character as much as Tim Minear or David Greenwalt was brought on as the writer for next season. That is assuming we are getting another season...
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Yeah, I get that it was meant to be funny. They may even mean it affectionately. But it's the kind of joke that doesn't work unless you think it's essentially true. Thus, I didn't laugh, I got annoyed.

I don't think you can argue that Angel has not made any mistakes in this season. Or in others. The line didn't strike me as funny either, but I accept that is what they were aiming for.

It's been clear to me that Joss and co don't care one iota about Angel the moment they saw how good s9 of Angel and Faith was and decided to move Gage and Isaac's to the BtVS side. It seems Angel's side isn't allowed to be better than Buffy's. They have to take whatever made it good and give it to BtVS because that is the priority for them. They don't care that this happened to Angel's detriment. Not that I should have been surprised with season 8's fiasco.

I guess the only way any of this could be fixed is if someone who gets and loves the character as much as Tim Minear or David Greenwalt was brought on as the writer for next season. That is assuming we are getting another season...

One of the issues is that Angel fans are not buying the comics. It's a business and DH have to make business decisions. It's not about hurting Angel, it's about expanding the Buffy circulation further, because that's the comic more people are buying and seem more interested in.

Why don't Angel fans buy the comics? I love the verse, I buy the Angel comics even though I'm not a particular fan of the character so I don't understand why hardcore Angel fans aren't buying.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Why don't Angel fans buy the comics? I love the verse, I buy the Angel comics even though I'm not a particular fan of the character so I don't understand why hardcore Angel fans aren't buying.

I think it’s circular logic. Twilight pissed us off so many of us stopped buying, lowering the sales for Angel comics, and as more character regression and lack of Angel characters is shown the more readers drop out and DH cares less about the comic. I mean I liked Season 9 of Angel and Faith. But overall DH don’t seem interested in giving us the Angel characters we know and love like IDW did (Connor, Lorne, Gwen, Gunn..) Add insult to injury that they not only show but tell us Angel keeps making mistakes over and over. If you keep literally telling me that a character I love isn’t growing (despite all the growth he had in AtS) I’m going to be turned off from buying your comics.
 
Grace
Grace
Exactly!

Mylie

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@Priceless I bought After the Fall and Angel & Faith s9 in trademark paperback after I read the issues online. Because I loved them and could see myself going back to them like I do with my DVDs. I see it as watching a show on TV personally. I’ll watch to know what happens and I’ll buy it if I love it. I won’t buy a comic I haven’t read yet just like I wouldn’t buy a season of television I haven’t seen. And I certainly won’t spend money on something that not only keeps disappointing me but seems enjoying doing so. I do love things that don’t take themselves seriously but I want to be taken seriously as a reader/fan!
 

Priceless

Scooby
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I think it’s circular logic. Twilight pissed us off so many of us stopped buying, lowering the sales for Angel comics, and as more character regression and lack of Angel characters is shown the more readers drop out and DH cares less about the comic. I mean I liked Season 9 of Angel and Faith. But overall DH don’t seem interested in giving us the Angel characters we know and love like IDW did (Connor, Lorne, Gwen, Gunn..) Add insult to injury that they not only show but tell us Angel keeps making mistakes over and over. If you keep literally telling me that a character I love isn’t growing (despite all the growth he had in AtS) I’m going to be turned off from buying your comics.

I can understand that you wanted to see the old characters. I'd love to see more of Connor and Gunn etc. too. It is understandable that if you believe your favourtie character is being 'attacked' that you may decide not to carry on reading.

I am not trying to make you change your mind or think differently, but I would say from my pov that Angel making mistakes is growing. He's learning and changing through his mistakes, like Buffy. I also think this thing with Illyria (whatever it turns out to be) is the most interesting and exciting thing that's happend to Angel the comic in a long time.

@Priceless I bought After the Fall and Angel & Faith s9 in trademark paperback after I read the issues online. Because I loved them and could see myself going back to them like I do with my DVDs. I see it as watching a show on TV personally. I’ll watch to know what happens and I’ll buy it if I love it. I won’t buy a comic I haven’t read yet just like I wouldn’t buy a season of television I haven’t seen. And I certainly won’t spend money on something that not only keeps disappointing me but seems enjoying doing so. I do love things that don’t take themselves seriously but I want to be taken seriously as a reader/fan!

Money is tight, so spending it on something you may not like is a tough call. Like you, I thought the previous issues were very poor and I actually didn't understand where the story was going, but this one issue has turned the season around for me and now I cannot wait to see what happens next. If the last two issues deliver great storytelling and a satisfying conclusion I hope you will buy the season, because unfortunately it's only by spending money will DH publish these comics.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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I am not trying to make you change your mind or think differently, but I would say from my pov that Angel making mistakes is growing.

I understand where you are coming from and I think that is what the writers believe they are going with it. And let’s be honest I’ll probably keep reading it’s hard for me to stay away but I can understand the Angel fans jumping ship.
 

Grace

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I don't think you can argue that Angel has not made any mistakes in this season. Or in others. The line didn't strike me as funny either, but I accept that is what they were aiming for.

I am not trying to make you change your mind or think differently, but I would say from my pov that Angel making mistakes is growing. He's learning and changing through his mistakes, like Buffy.

I agree that Angel has made mistakes. A character who never makes mistakes is boring. But it's also tedious to have a character's growth consistently wiped out by (the same) mistakes. I thought that the time-travel adventure would allow us to see Angel finally understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to "kill" himself. So it would have a different outcome than Amends, when a higher power took the decision away from him. He would be the one to make the choice. Now, in the last two issues he might retroactively decide it was a good thing he didn't prevent his own siring, but in the clutch moment, he made the same choice he did all those years ago, which wasn't to save himself. So that's what I'm reacting to. I don't see the growth there. To me, wanting to end his own existence without a major precipitating event and not being persuaded to change his mind based on his son's life alone is not growth. But I can understand how that would make sense to you if you don't like the character. That might be the story they want to tell, but it stings when they choose one of your favorite characters to constantly send back to square one.
 

Antho

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I don’t think you can say a character is growing while he is regressing ! And I honestly think this is a fact, not just an opinion.
 
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