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Discussion of Angel 11.11 - Released 11/22/17 (Dark Horse)

TriBel

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Bugger!! Second frame - "Are you touched - Hey come back". Tell me that's coincidence (and I'll say - I don't believe you). I knew Buffy 11 had returned to S7! and that this would slot in somewhere. I'm wondering if there's a play on Potentials - potential timelines etc? Alternatively - is there an overlap with Angel S11 and Angel S5?
 
It's weird, I never even think Angel might have been shanshued, it's like that possibility has been present in the background for so long that it feels as if it would an anticlimactic if he got it now.

But - is there a parallel with the ILY? Just slot it in casually?
 

Priceless

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But - is there a parallel with the ILY? Just slot it in casually?

If Angel had been Shanshued I think they'd make a massive deal about it. It's the whole basis of Angel's redemption arc. But then he did sign it away in S5, so it may not even be in play anymore. I think it is more likely that the nature of the world has been changed somehow, but whether this means Angel is a real boy or not, who knows?! :confused:
 

EarthLogic

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But then he did sign it away in S5, so it may not even be in play anymore.
In ATF they confirmed that the document was never filed so it is still in play. Besides you can't just sign away a prophecy - and you certainly can't do it by just writing your name on it!!

If Angel has become human he'd notice his heartbeat almost immediately, especially if he was in the middle of a fight, like he did in IWRY and ATF.
 

TriBel

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@Priceless - Lol, what can I say, I'm just that much cooler :)
Whereas I've eaten 3 Raspberry Ruffle bars :oops: and alphabetized my CD collection. (The last was a lie - I've actually picked them up off the floor and put them on their dedicated shelf. This is the my idea of organisation. I'm now going to organize my "floordrobe" by hiding everything in the washing basket. I fear I've turned into an 18 year old boy)! :(
 
Priceless
Priceless
If we've become teenage boys, I am an Oz and you are a Xander lol

Mrs Gordo

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Let's start by trying to figure out what happened between Illyria/Angel. They are fully clothed so no sex right? If they wanted to give us the impression that they had sex they would have given us more clothing in disarray wouldn't you think? I'm glad I was right about the Fred "used to have a crush" on Angel thing. I never got any non-friend vibes. But then again I never got any vibes from him and Illyria either so... idk...

My confusion continues: How are Fred and Angel in two places at once? That's not how time travel works... even in theory. What did they do to screw up time so badly??

Also - WHY is Angel so dumb in this Season?? He is 250 years old, he is a learned man, he likes reading and existentialism and he knows ancient prophecies, and enjoys music and art and poetry and has tons of books but he doesn't know what a paradox is? o_O

The art annoyed me in this issue - ALOT. Angel looked very unattractive almost goofy. Illyria sometimes looked almost bald. Angel in vampface looks TERRIFYING!

I am confused as to why Angel is letting Fred go into the fray to fight these crazy flower monster things unprotected. She has no powers. I guess he assumes Illyria will come out if she is in trouble? She is just a regular girl.

And then SERIOUSLY - the reflection better mean something. If it is a mistake then they really DON'T GIVE A SH*T right?? I mean how could this get past the editors without being recognized. As @EarthLogic says, if Angel was alive he would have known it. I have to admit @TriBel I don't understand the "touched" reference is that because of the Season 7 episode? I think that is just a colloquialism they use in Dublin right? I don't see the relation or the call back to Season 7.

I'll end with the Slay the Critics it says "Any announcements about Season 12 will be a while down the road" so there's that.

How can they possibly resolve all of this mess with just one issue left? Will any of this have any weight? If they end with a back to square one I will be very disappointed.
 
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Grace

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I feel like SUCH an idiot. I didn't even NOTICE the reflection.
 
How did FRED not freak out about it?!
 
No one over at The Forum That Cannot Be Named mentioned it either. Did you see it, @AndrewCrossett?
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Maybe the editors didn't notice either!! lol

TriBel

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That's not how time travel works... even in theory.
Not sure. I think Quantum Mechanics allows for atoms to be in two places at the same time. Interestingly, one of the guys responsible for creating the field of Quantum Mechanics was Erwin Schrödinger and I speculated a couple of weeks ago that Wes was alluding to Schrödinger's cat when Illyria came into being. That is the full extent of my knowledge of physics and it's mostly down to google.:(

I have to admit @TriBel I don't understand the "touched" reference is that because of the Season 7 episode? I think that is just a colloquialism they use in Dublin right? I don't see the relation or the call back to Season 7.

Buffy 11 was a definite call back to S7 - I argued it as soon as I realised they were dealing with hybridity. I'm not sure about Angel because I haven't read of 11 but I did speculate with Priceless and Grace that something was going on that was similar to LMPTM and it could have a very significant effect on Angel. "Touched" - it's a common phrase in the UK so not specific to Dublin but it seemed very coincidental.

I feel like SUCH an idiot. I didn't even NOTICE the reflection.
I've been asking myself this all weekend! Why didn't Grace notice it? That's what made me think I might have been seeing a spoof! I nearly messaged you.
 
How can they possibly resolve all of this mess with just one issue left?
I asked the same question about Buffy. I don't think that's resolved. I'm wondering whether 12 will be a crossover?

@Grace "I am red-faced. I am ashamed of myself..." So you should be :) If only for letting me call my sanity into question :) TBH, I don't think I noticed it first time and when I did I didn't believe it. I've been googling all weekend thinking "someone must have seen it". I'm not going mad - am I? See - I still don't trust it!
 
Grace
Grace
I am red-faced. I am ashamed of myself...

AndrewCrossett

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Sineya

I didn't notice until someone else mentioned it. I have no idea whether it was just a mistake by the writer or if it means something. I think Angel would immediately realize if he wasn't a vampire anymore, especially if he was fighting that monster plant... he'd notice he didn't have his super strength.

I think it was probably just a dumb mistake. The editor should have caught it.
 

Mrs Gordo

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I think Angel would immediately realize if he wasn't a vampire anymore, especially if he was fighting that monster plant... he'd notice he didn't have his super strength.

But - and I am stealing this idea from @Grace what if he knows and just hasn't said anything... see e.g. ATF.
 

Priceless

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Finally got my copy. Ok first thing, Angel uses the word 'tumultuous', which seems really weird coming from him. He doesn't usually speak like that does he? Did Liam or Angelus ever use the word? It could just be bad writing.

Angel tuns into a vampire when he's telling the Irish policewoman to run, so we know he is still a vampire.

We see a previous version of Fred talking about prophecies, then she talks to Angel about how unusual he his, 'dead but alive, vampire but with a soul . . . '
Fred says the three versions of Angel meeting has cracked reality 'Like a mirr...' but she doesn't get to finish the sentence with the word Mirror at the end. She believes reality is self-correcting.

The car is completely unnecessary imo, it's only reason for being is that it has a mirror for Fred to see Angel reflected in. I don't think the mirror is a mistake, not when it's mentioned and seen several times.

Now I've read it, I think 'reality correcting itself' could mean Liam, Angelus and Angel are somehow all going to be 'corrected' and made one/whole. Maybe still vampire, still with a soul and also human - his three selves becoming one.

The first 3/4 of season 11 have been awful, but the last few issues have been amazing and if they are going to take this giant leap in Angel's story (and it's a big if) then this could be one of the most epic Buffyverse comics ever. I am actually more excited for issue 12 then I have been for any Buffyverse comic ever. Hope the writers don't let me down :)
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Man now I’m excited too...

Grace

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Hope the writers don't let me down :)

I hope so too. I want to believe in your theory because it sounds so cool, but I can't remember the writers ever doing anything so subtle in the Angel comics. So I am keeping my expectations very low still. :)
 
Refresh my memory, @dcai0830. Was there anything in S9 that was pretty subtle? Like the soul pieces Angel was gathering? Maybe I'm being too harsh. S11 has just been so bad that I find it hard to give the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Priceless

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I hope so too. I want to believe in your theory because it sounds so cool, but I can't remember the writers ever doing anything so subtle in the Angel comics. So I am keeping my expectations very low still. :)

You are probably right, and I'm just getting carried away. I'm going to re-read the season and see if it gives us any more clues.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Refresh my memory, @dcai0830. Was there anything in S9 that was pretty subtle? Like the soul pieces Angel was gathering? Maybe I'm being too harsh. S11 has just been so bad that I find it hard to give the benefit of the doubt.

No, every time Angel acted weird due to the soul gathering Faith reacted so we as readers knew something was off. There were some fake outs I can recall but they were rather minor. Angel appearing to still be crazy while Spike spilling his guts re Buffy, is one I can think of but resolved quickly.

The issue is Fred didn’t react.
 

TriBel

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Fred says the three versions of Angel meeting has cracked reality 'Like a mirr...' but she doesn't get to finish the sentence with the word Mirror at the end. She believes reality is self-correcting.

The car is completely unnecessary imo, it's only reason for being is that it has a mirror for Fred to see Angel reflected in. I don't think the mirror is a mistake, not when it's mentioned and seen several times.

Now I've read it, I think 'reality correcting itself' could mean Liam, Angelus and Angel are somehow all going to be 'corrected' and made one/whole. Maybe still vampire, still with a soul and also human - his three selves becoming one.

I'd go along with that. I never thought the mirror was a mistake. There's several ways in which it could be done - the first is obviously mystical and involves prophecy (I think I alluded to this above). The second is more straightforward and would be something akin to what Spike underwent in LMPTM. Personally, I think Angel/Angelus is/are repressing knowledge from an earlier event (in the same way Spike repressed knowledge of killing his mother). Once the repression was lifted and Spike was able to "apologise" to his mum, his "reality" corrected and fundamentally altered his relationship with Buffy and his concept of self. There's nothing to say something similar can't happen with Angel. The mirror is important not just in relation to vampire lore but also in terms of psychoanalysis (think of it as the mental image Angel has of himself is not a "true" image - new knowledge about himself would correct the image). The future-anterior dynamics of certain forms of repression aren't too far removed from the dynamics of prophecy (as Wes and Knox talk about them in S5). As I recall, mirrors/the scrying dish featured strongly in the first or second comic of the season. I can't reconcile the three essences (vampire/soul/human) at a literal level without recourse to Trinitarianism, which takes me perilously close to the concept of God (I know you don't like me banging about Angel being elevated to the Pantheon). I can reconcile them in Touched but that wasn’t literal. So I think it's likely we'll see a change in Angel but not necessarily Shanshu. Repressed knowledge coming to consciousness would unify Liam/Angel and Angelus psychically and may well impact the "perfect happiness" clause by changing what constitutes perfect happiness.

I can't hang any significance onto tumultuous except for the fact that it comes together with the term Whirlwind in Homer's Iliad. I haven't followed Angel's S11 journey well enough to say whether it's Homeric or not. In fact, I haven't read Homer recently and I could be over-reaching. Ironically - if I'd stayed away from this and concentrated more on the damned Searchers (which utilises the Odyssey) I'd likely have learned more.

As far as I can see the whole season has been over-determined in the way that a dream is (and I'm not saying it is a dream). It's definitely using devices such as condensation and displacement – defence mechanisms associated with the return of the repressed. The Fellini ASA NISI MASA reference iin #1 is a bit of a giveaway (perhaps it’s simply a red herring). Fellini’s Dolce Vita is referenced in relation to Dru and Spike "The Girl in Question" and in the comics. Whether it’s pig Latin for Anima as is claimed, I don’t know – I’m not familiar enough with Jung to formulate an argument. There is a precedent though, I’m sure Xander uses Pig Latin in After Life and, apparently, it’s used in The I in Team.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Preston’s new vid review is up. I tweeted him about the rear view mirror, so cool of him to give me a shout out. :)

But more importantly, he thinks it’s not a mistake. The more I think about it the less I think it’s a mistake because:

- the name of the volume is Dark Reflections, can’t be a coincidence
- Fred talks about reality cracking like a mir... clearly she was going to say mirror.
- Fred’s talk about Angel, Angelus, Liam and how they affect reality.
- and I think as mentioned up stream, no point in having a car in the comic when Fred could have gone into a building, the car was there for the mirror.

I love his point about the Flower Monster being a metaphor for screwing with time. The more you try to fix and help the worse it gets.

And finally, I didn’t realize on first read that Illyria said she brought them back after they went cruising through time... so that they fact that they see their past selves shows they screwed up time. So now I understand that the paradox would be them never taking the trip at all. But they did take the trip because they are there... again with the time traveling making my head hurts. It’s all very back to the future-y.
 

Grace

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OK, all of your combined powers have convinced me. I have raised my expectations. This means you are all to blame if I am disappointed. :) :) :)
 

Mrs Gordo

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OK, all of your combined powers have convinced me. I have raised my expectations. This means you are all to blame if I am disappointed. :) :) :)

You can reserve the right to “I told you so” if we are wrong. :)
 
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