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Discussion of Angel 11.12 - Released 12/20/17 (Dark Horse)

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Corinna Bechko has answered the first 10 questions from the q/a in the forum that shall not be named.

Q&A

Nothing all that earth shattering really... mostly vague non-committal answers. Meh.
 

Mrs Gordo

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You know, I just thought of something. I can't believe we went all the way back in time to see Liam and his sister and his dad and hang out in Galloway and we STILL don't know what Liam's last name was. That could've been one good thing we got from s11 and we couldn't even get that. lol.
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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i can't believe i expected something more out of it. also am i the only one who didn't like the drawing?? ugh
angel and faith were much better team...than these three stooges from hell sorry(not sorry)
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Ok. So usually I am the first one to defend the comics, i really like what they did with buffy and angel( after the fall was just genius i think it had the feeling of an original tv show in it). but this. i can’t accept it!

first of all the time travel was executed poorly. there must’ve been more consequences than what we got in final issue. i mean butterfly effect anyone? it can’t be THAT easy. there was all this culmination and then… nothing happened. literally. they kind of got a way with murder.

also Illyria? as i remember she was genderless god king. and when she came back in angel and faith her behavior was like of one. but here she is…so human? idk maybe that was the effect of sharing body with Fred? but she never before addresed to herself as a goddess. and i really hate that everyone in her past was speaking english haha sorry. and the original Illyria…wasn’t it supposed to be a fierce old one? wtf was that anyway?

the scene with angel and illyria…well that was so forced and unnatural and out of character for BOTH of them. such a cheap soap opera trick i hate it.

then the drawing format was so…child like comics. after angel and faith it was really hard to get used to their new faces. and anyway this partnership…seemed odd. at the end of season 10 angel and faith were partners yet again! why the hell would angel just leave magic town like this? it just seems not right in terms of plot and character development.

i really don’t understand what was the point of this whole arc? what it was supposed to achieve anyway? how is it relevant to all that was happening in the comics universe? they’ve traveled through time and in the end got to fight with giant flower eh what? also i think fred would’ve been agains this whole thing from the beginning. i mean she is the scientist she is aware of string theory and how time works she should’ve said from the beginning what a bad idea it is.
 
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thetopher

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So, Angel has a vision of impending doom and so he and Illyria go on a time-travel jaunt to find out about what in Angel's past points to the nature of the danger...

But the 'twist' is that the time-travel itself actually causes the danger...and also resolves it (throwing clothes at a plant monster...dear muppet-y Odin).

I mean, a tale told in twelve acts that has absolutely no consequence?

Were the writers told 'don't advance any of these three characters in any meaningful way, And these are the only ones you're allowed to use. Oh and they can't leave modern day Dublin. Oh and throw in a half-baked love triangle thing. yeah? Oh it'll be fine just throw in lots of red herring imagery and make 'em hold out for that big reveal in issue 12, we still get their money!'

This twist has been done to death; the whole 'time travel to prevent actually causes' thing is now lame. When I can honestly say that Star Trek: Voyager did this trope better then you know how low Angel's has sunk.

This season's start was slow but intriguing, then had a moderately fun few issues in the middle and then kinda...trailed off at the end. I guess now all that vague symbolism was because of the incredible simple twist and they wanted to try and keep people guessing. Pfft!

The one major thing about this season is that Angel came out of looking really kinda bad; a lot of his self-justification and complete lack of intellect when dealing with problems almost soured me on the character...Bring back the guy from A&F S9 or better yet the show/AtF.

I have my (many) issues with BS11 but at least it wasn't a big waste of time like this. I now officially think that bringing back Fred was a bad idea (a little bit like my opinion of Giles actually) since the writers have NO CLUE what to do with her. God what a waste.
 
badsister
badsister
same....so sad

Mrs Gordo

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I mean, a tale told in twelve acts that has absolutely no consequence?
Were the writers told 'don't advance any of these three characters in any meaningful way, And these are the only ones you're allowed to use. Oh and they can't leave modern day Dublin. Oh and throw in a half-baked love triangle thing. yeah? Oh it'll be fine just throw in lots of red herring imagery and make 'em hold out for that big reveal in issue 12, we still get their money!'
I really think that you are kinda right on the marching orders. Not sure if you read the Q/A linked above but CB essentially says: "I took my marching orders from higher up, as it were. The broad outline was that this should be a “time travel road trip” so that’s where I started. Furthermore, there needed to be some developments between Fred and Illyria as they came to respect each other more, but with the caveat that they both relate to Angel differently. So together, those concepts produced the story that you’re reading!"

The more and more I hear about s12, I tend to wonder if s11 Angel was just about showcasing Illyria's time travel abilities so that they could be used in s12's time travel adventures? With a side order of Angel having sexy time with Fredyria and coming to vague realization about his past that I still haven't quite formulated.

The one major thing about this season is that Angel came out of looking really kinda bad; a lot of his self-justification and complete lack of intellect when dealing with problems almost soured me on the character...Bring back the guy from A&F S9 or better yet the show/AtF.
Agreed. I've gotten to the point where, I sometimes don't even recognize him. His trying to end his own existence is probably the stupidest crap ever. Connor doesn't exist, Buffy probably dies (Harvest/Prophecy Girl), the physicist Rainy potentially ends the world, Fred stays in Pylea, hell maybe the Nazi's win the war (idk how important what he did in Why We Fight was to the bigger effort...). Either way that he just doesn't seem to consider any of this seriously. It is incredibly frustrating. I too miss Angel (from the show, from atf, from s9 even). I'm hopeful that Christos will do a better job with him than this author who clearly didn't have a firm grasp on this character.

On a different note, I have come around to the idea of Angel/Fred - as in I will tolerate it and I'm not going to flip out if its canon - whatever. It doesn't mean I'm a proponent of it, mind you. But in reviewing this author's Q/A again I was struck with her reading on Angel/Fred's relationship in the show. She is asked whether Fred has feelings for Angel in the comics and she answers: "Oh, definitely. She certainly did when she first met him, and I think that it’s pretty hard to completely exorcise something like that. And in my experience that’s particularly true after a long separation. We tend to remember strong emotions and forget the more mundane ones, and I bet that’s true for Fred as well." But Fred had a crush on Angel because he rescued her. It was never developed into a relationship. I never got the impression that she "fell in love" with him. Yet the author says "it's pretty hard to completely exorcise something like that." Except it kinda did - fizzle out - Angel and Fred were platonic friends for nearly 3 years. Good friends with absolutely no romance (save one decoy kiss). I would think the strong emotion she would remember from Angel was him as a good friend not the "school girl crush" she had on him. Maybe I'm diminishing Fred's feelings for Angel. I'd be interested to see if any of you all felt that Fred's feelings for Angel were more developed than what my impression is of them. I just can't shake the feeling that this author basically watched beginning of S3 Fred and then just kinda ran with it. Like the author said: 'Ok got it girl lived in cave and had a crush on Angel' and off she went.
 
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Mylie
Mylie
I'm the opposite. The more I think about Angel/Fred, the more against it I am!

thetopher

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I really think that you are kinda right on the marching orders. Not sure if you read the Q/A linked above but CB essentially says: "I took my marching orders from higher up, as it were. The broad outline was that this should be a “time travel road trip” so that’s where I started. Furthermore, there needed to be some developments between Fred and Illyria as they came to respect each other more, but with the caveat that they both relate to Angel differently. So together, those concepts produced the story that you’re reading!"
Huh, how about that.
Well that's the difference between good and bad writers I guess; what they do within their parameters. There is a ton of scope with 'time travel road trip' to do pretty much anything from Angelus' past; plenty of rich material to draw upon. Angel and Angelus facing off should've been...more than what we got.
I think that going back to Illyria's primordial earth was a great idea but it was too unfocused and ooc for Illyria ; she didn't have a good enough reason- not good enough to KILL HERSELF (yep, definite emo 'I hate myself!)

The pirate stuff -whilst enjoyable- was so silly that it fell apart at the end; they could've had Darla & Angelus or the massive demon-bug threat but not both. The result is that one half of the Whirlwind kinda got made the butt of the joke.
Angel's origin- however- was where it all just went bad; so many missed opportunities; I know little more about Liam that I hadn't already gleaned from the show. And all that other stuff...:mad:

And the kicker was the reason- a total red herring which made the whole jaunt completely redundant.

Agreed. I've gotten to the point where, I sometimes don't even rcognize him. His trying to end his own existence is probably the stupidest crap ever. Connor doesn't exist, Buffy probably dies (Harvest/Prophecy Girl)
Yes, Angel- in this issue- was willing to do something that would lead to the deaths of the two people he loves more than anything. And it was so badly written.

Right now I'm calling that Illria's time travel has debilitating/mind-warping effects; (Fred is immune because Illyria) poor Angel had his brains temporarily scrambled for the entire season; he's that ooc.

the physicist Rainy potentially ends the world
Heh, I forgot about this but true. World ends in frozen time mid-Buffy S5...

Fred stays in Pylea
I wanted Fred to get angry with him when he said 'oh, you would've gotten out eventually', he completely forgets how one of the biggest trauma's of her life affected her.

hell maybe the Nazi's win the war (idk how important what he did in Why We Fight was to the bigger effort...).
Forgot about that. Now I've got an image of Angel holding the American flag and kicking Nazi's. :D

Either way that he just doesn't seem to consider any of this seriously. It is incredibly frustrating.
There's actually a way to write it that makes sense to Angel's character I think, but what we got was terrible and idiotic.

On a different note, I have come around to the idea of Angel/Fred
Honestly Fred should be hung-up on Wesley or Gunn more than anything to do with Angel; Angel was an unreciprocated crush- not that intense because there is no feedback and Fred isn't a creepy stalker type.

The Frangel thing *shudder* doesn't work from her side and definitely not from his; she is the kid sister (the other kid sister given that Faith is also a kid sister) and I even think that Kathy was drawn to look a little like Fred.
 

Mrs Gordo

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The Frangel thing *shudder* doesn't work from her side and definitely not from his;
you know that's the other (of the long list) thing that frustrates me is - what the heck does Angel feel about the Fred or Illyria thing? Illyria kisses him after they fight (they potentially had sex but again the writer is "leaving that up to interpretation...." = cop out). And then Fred tells him at the end she was kinda OK with it. Angel doesn't look mortified at Fred's admission so I assume he's cool with her having feelings for him but why are we left in the dark about what he thinks about this? Why is it all about what Illyria or Fred think? Does Angel have feelings for Fred? Are they strong? Is he falling in love? Isn't this his comic? Why don't I know anything about his side of this thruple aside from - he may or may not have gotten laid and he seems cool with that.

Also - we just don't care about the curse anymore? Is there no concern that Fredyria is going to trigger the curse? If the curse isn't an issue anymore I wish someone would clarify that for me because last I checked he is still a vampire "cursed with a soul."
 
badsister
badsister
at least he's getting some

thetopher

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you know that's the other (of the long list) thing that frustrates me is - what the heck does Angel feel about the Fred or Illyria thing?
To me he looked mortified and incredibly awkward around Fred after the...kiss slahs snuggling (because dammit nobody puts their clothes on AFTER sex and then goes back to sleep, nobody does this.) and clearly wants to just be friends since that's what he was concerned about.

I have no clue how he feels about Illyria but again I think that- in a moment of weakness- he made a mistake. Y'know, like he did with Darla in 'Reprise' but not as bad. A moment of feeling lonely rather than perfect despair.
...It's sad that I'm having to interpret something that the writers clearly give that much mind to.
 

RomanticSoul

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Geez people, just ignore the comics dreck entirely and the verse is a much better place. It ends with AtS S5 and all is well.
 

thetopher

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Geez people, just ignore the comics dreck entirely and the verse is a much better place. It ends with AtS S5 and all is well.
Some of us just enjoy the torment too much. :p

In all seriousness I stopped really caring about ALL the Buffyverse around Buffy S10 and that includes the fate of the characters I love. I truly don't care but I enjoy reading/ reviewing the drek that comes of it.
I suppose that's a sliver lining; for example one ship is just badly written in the comics- so badly I wonder how anybody could be invested in the characters involved.
 

VCA

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I just finished reading the season and I have serious mixed emotions.

On one end, I am very disappointed in the creative team's use of Angelus and Darla.

They're known to be these huge baddies in the Buffyverse (especially back in the 1700s), yet all we get is this super short fight scene between them and Angel + Fred/Illyria and then they get tossed out of the plot line with Illyria's time travelling. There was literally so much potential to raise the stakes of the story by keeping Angelus and Darla in the plot for a longer time so that they could have the opportunity to mess up Angel's plans while also exploring the contrasts between Angelus and Angel's morals.

BUT at the same time, I thought the entire concept of revisiting the past was really intriguing.

For instance, I enjoyed all the segments where we got to look at Angel's time as a human and the bottled-up emotions he has regarding his family. This especially gave me some serious feels:

RCO005.jpg

It was also nice to see more of Illyria's compassionate side and then comparing that to her past as an evil egg-looking-god-self.

Anyway, I'm in a weird limbo where I love/hate this season. I liked the topics and themes that were explored, but so much more could've been done to make it better 🙃
 

TriBel

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I just finished reading the season and I have serious mixed emotions.

On one end, I am very disappointed in the creative team's use of Angelus and Darla.

They're known to be these huge baddies in the Buffyverse (especially back in the 1700s), yet all we get is this super short fight scene between them and Angel + Fred/Illyria and then they get tossed out of the plot line with Illyria's time travelling. There was literally so much potential to raise the stakes of the story by keeping Angelus and Darla in the plot for a longer time so that they could have the opportunity to mess up Angel's plans while also exploring the contrasts between Angelus and Angel's morals.

BUT at the same time, I thought the entire concept of revisiting the past was really intriguing.

For instance, I enjoyed all the segments where we got to look at Angel's time as a human and the bottled-up emotions he has regarding his family. This especially gave me some serious feels:

View attachment 11235

It was also nice to see more of Illyria's compassionate side and then comparing that to her past as an evil egg-looking-god-self.

Anyway, I'm in a weird limbo where I love/hate this season. I liked the topics and themes that were explored, but so much more could've been done to make it better 🙃
I'm in the minority inasmuch as I liked the season. I think the scenes you show above are central and could have a massive impact on Angel. Check out Fred's "famous last words" remark in #1 and Angel's father's and Kathy's last words (in #10?).
 
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The Bronze

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Well what a massive pile of trash this season was. Angel being in Dublin causes a rift, for some dodgy reason. Angel throwing garments from the past closes the rift, even though he's still there. All the messing around with the timeline changes nothing or introduces a new demon species and changes nothing else? Guess we find out next season.

Angel and Ilyria have one kiss or fully clothed sex? Then Angel's acting like he's about to propose to her and asking Fred's blessing. Fred likes the idea of watching Angel bang her body snatcher from the inside?

The only take aways from this season appear to be that Angel's IQ is decreasing significantly with age. Expect to see him in a care home in the near future. Fred & Ilyria are merging into one super boring character.
 
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