Discussion of Angel 5x15 - "A Hole In The World" (WB-U.S.A.) airing 2/25/04.

Old Master 3.0

Old Master 3.0

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Black Thorn
From TVGuide.com:

A Hole in the World: Angel must choose between saving one friend's life and the lives of thousands when Fred falls desperately ill after examining a mysterious sarcophagus that arrives in the lab. Angel and Spike's investigation leads them to the hiding Eve, who sheds some light on the dire situation in hopes of keeping her location concealed from the Senior Partners; and Gunn has a surprising encounter in the White Room.
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I took the liberty of starting this in Buffy Summer's stead....who did give permission to start one of these if she was ever unavailable to do so.

This thread is for discussion of this episode AFTER it airs.
 
I loved it...lots of different elements to it. And, I don't know about anyone else, but I can admit I cried..alot!
 
Well, I just finished watching the episode. I suspect most people won't agree, but I was a little disappointed. I don't know. I don't like that they killed Fred, although it does set up an interesting plot development. My main problem is that it didn't have much emotional impact for me.I'm really not sure why. Lilah's death hurt a lot more, and while I loved Lilah, I also really like Fred. She saved the world last season and is a central character and a great person. I know Angel likes hurting its characters, but was killing Fred really worth Wesley, Gunn, Angel, Lorne, and Spike's anguish conflict and development?

I also don't understand why Spike and Angel didn't just call Wesley and tell him to fly with Fred to England. Then, she could have died on the plane if they really wanted to kill her. I just feel like Spike and Angel really weren't thinking. If the "plague" would kill anyone between Fred and the well, why not bring Fred to the well?
 
Interesting...I hadn't thought about the "bringing Fred to the well" thing. I kind of get what you mean, about the emotional aspect, though. This might seem a bit sadistic, but I like anguish in my characters. It was there, but maybe not as much as I would have hoped. Still...worked me up as it was anyway, so I guess it was a job well done.

And what about Wes pulling out his gun and shooting that guy in the leg?? *starts to reminisce about S4 Wes*...
 
That was extremely sad. Great episode, but I even cried. It takes a lot to move me, and that certainly did it for me. The big moment for me was when her head fell on Wesley's arm...::crying::. Also, I didn't expect her to change into Illyria so soon. When Fred sang by the stairs, Lorne turned around, and she coughed up blood, I jumped...seriously. I hope Knox lives through his encounter with Gunn, so that Wes can make him suffer. I bet Gunn's gonna suffer a bit too. Next week's looks so good...
 
I think it looks interesting. I'd like to see what Acker does with the character of Illyria.

xtrustno1x said:
And what about Wes pulling out his gun and shooting that guy in the leg?? *starts to reminisce about S4 Wes*...
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Oh, I hope he's back. I miss the tortured, dark, kickass Wesley. He's like Wesley on happy drugs this season.
 
Definitely. Hell, I'm eager too see how all the actors portray all the emotion. Andy Hallett was great this ep. We got to see a more "kick-ass" side of Lorne. I liked it.
 
Hey this is totally unrelated, but weren't their numbers a little low. I mean if everyone between LA and Cornwall (I think the well is there) was going to died if they saved Fred that would mean almost the whole continental US and some of the U.K as well. Or maybe Illyria travels in a straight line? Would driving the demon out of Fred kill their group as well?
 
Although there were a few things that didn't go over so well, all around, I thought it was a pretty well put together episode.

Loved the stuff about the cavemen and the astronaughts, liked Spike and Angel's interactions.... (Holding hands, so cute on the level of SPANGEL).

I did shed a few tears, right when I realized she was gone, I was so shocked and sad, but I have to agree with Hitome; I thought that it should have elicited a little more emotion.... Maybe it'll hit me later, I'm still in a little shock right now.

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A few things I noticed:

Does it seem like James' dialogue coach has been MIA this season? I've been noticing that his accent isn't as good as it used to be.

Did anyone catch the comercial for King Of Queens? Julie Benz is on it. (It's on as I write this).

How about thoes big name commercials? Sponsered by Nike, extra long Nike time slot... Pizza Hut, there were a few more. Does this not suggest that Angel is still a pretty decent draw as far as demographic and networks, etc. go?

Oh... And Spangel! (Are you as happy as me Magui?)
 
Wesley on happy-drugs...I just got this *really* hilarious mental image...not good...LOL.

And, now, I've never been a huge fan of the slash genre...but I have to admit..Spangel - you gotta love it!
 
the bit with Wes shooting the guy was lame, it wasn't really the kind of thing Wes would do. Badass Wes is an extension of "ends justify the means" Wes. When he hurts civilians, it's to benefit someone else. Examples: His tactics in Pylea, stabbing the Junkie while searching for Angelus. In each case, Wes' response was for the greater good. In this case, it was not. Shooting the W&H staff member in the leg didn't aid Fred at all. In fact, how do we know that man, had he not been shot in the leg, wouldn't have discovered a way to help Fred? To me, this seemed more like Joss not having a real handle on Wes' character.
 
I have to admit..I was a bit shocked when he did it, too. It didn't *feel* like something Wes would do. Kind of pointless. But, it brought up all those memories.
 
I enjoyed the episode.
I thought it was funny when Wes shot that guy - didn't expect it but, it certinally lets you know how serious he is about something.

Looking forward to the next.🙂
 
This was the setup episode, and no-one sets things up better than Joss. I can't wait for next week. If I was dying of some terrible debilitating disease, I would hang on an extra couple of days, just to see this upcoming episode.

And I have to say it...My first reaction to the last shot: Amy Acker as Evil Goddess is sizzling hot.
 
The episode was just...whoa. I was a little blown away by it -- her death. But overall, the episode, despite the sentiment attached there for me, I thought it was a little slowpaced.

-Why didn't they end up saving her? Angel said "To hell with the world..." and then resumed his position on the bridge, standing there and doing absolutely nothing. Neither he, nor Spike did anything to try and call the thing back to the well.

-Gunn's fight with himself: A little weird. I don't think I quite understood why he was fighting himself, but that could just be my ignorance.

Okay, I thought I had more "slow-paced" events, and I probably do, but I can't think of them right now. I'm still crying about Fred's death. Wesley finally gets the girl of his dreams, only to have her die in his arms hours later. How sad is that? I really hope she is brought back -- to her original form -- before the finale.

Ugh, I know Joss is probably setting up for something, but why Fred? Why not that stupid, pathetic scientist? I'd be okay with that...
 
All right first off I fully admit that I cried, so very much during this episode.

Amy (Fred) was so amazing in this episode, that the even the word "amazing" doesn't do her justice. First off was I the only one screaming at Fred (the TV) telling her not to touch it; I really couldn't help it...I don't know what was more freaky to me the look on Lorne's face the instant she sang or Fred coughing up blood on Wes, but I was in shock.

I really loved the scene with her and all the guys (except for Knox because well lets just say I smiling ear to ear when Gunn bashed him with the metal container.) and the Lacrosse Team joke was great.

Any scene between Wes & Fred just broke my heart, that last one more then ever.

I feel bad for Gunn you knew that deal he made was going to come back and bite him in the ass big time. His little joke on Wes was cute, and evil conduit Gunn was a little sexy.

Spike & Angel were great as always, and I imagine the people that ship them loved that scene when Angel told Spike to hold his hand. I like the running discussion of "Astronauts Vs. Cavemen" . Spike was great when he kept asking questions but saying they were statements. When he went off just asking a ton of random questions was another great moment.

I was so happy when Lorne punched Eve, and then his threat to her was just great. I think I was most happy to see Lorne show his tough side.

Now I'm not happy they killed Fred, but Illyria looks so cool, and it'll be fun to see Amy in a different part.

Also someone on another board mentioned that it should have been Lorne because nobody really cares about him and I argued since I love Lorne but if it should have been anybody, it's Eve. I wouldn't have wanted it to be Knox because I liked when Gunn attacked him.

And I have a theory about the whole "Cavemen Vs. Astronauts" it could have been a parallel to what was going on "The Old Ones Vs. Humans" I don't know could just be me reading too much into it, it just seemed to make sense in my mind, and Fred's comment toward the end saying the Cavemen win or in this case The Old Ones. just something to think about
 
S
SlayersDestiny
Amen, right on the money!!! Couldnt agree with you more. Great post!
3sACharm said:
Amy (Fred) was so amazing in this episode, that the even the word "amazing" doesn't do her justice. First off was I the only one screaming at Fred (the TV) telling her not to touch it; I really couldn't help it...I don't know what was more freaky to me the look on Lorne's face the instant she sang or Fred coughing up blood on Wes, but I was in shock.
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I'm right there with you. I kept saying not to touch it but of course she gonna.

I really like this episode except for the whole Fred dieing thing but I really hope she comes back. I too cried at the end. Just breaks my heart. Poor Wesley.

I loved the Angle and Spike argument on astronauts and cavemen I was laughing so heard. But I like how they banded together after Angel wanted him to leave. I think the two of them make a great team if they just work together. Hopefully they can save Fred before its to late.

I haven't seen every Angel episode but from what i've seen, are the episodes getting more intense? It may just be me that is feeling this, I don't know.
 
Wow
This episode was, good, not the best ever (because I felt it was kinda choppy), but I really liked it anyway, Joss did an excellent job and so did the actors.
And....
aaccccccccccck!
What did Lorn see??? that is driving me nuts, cause the look on his face was like WOW!
When he read Fred I thought for sure they would show him saying something, especially after that look, and Lorn going all Bad cop on Eve was great. I have to say I was super Lorn impressed in this episode. And poor Fred, gosh I was really hoping that the her dying thing was a scare tactic, and that in the end she would be saved, but that scene with Wes, it pretty much looked like she was all the way dead. Bad Fred looked really cool, and Bad Gun was interesting, and he beat up Gun that was something you don't see every day. I was almost sad to have it confirmed that W&H now own Gun. And I actually may be the only one who totally got Wes shooting that guy in the leg. The guy was like making it no big deal and wanted to work on another case while Fred was dying, I think I would have shot him to. Remember Wes has been in love with Fred for how long? and after all it was just in the leg and the odds of a innocent person working for W&H are pretty nill. Oh and.... I can't believe I was right about Gun being the reason Fred was infected, that is so awesome, and so bad all at once. I wonder if now gun is going to have to fess up to the fang gang about his little deal, or maybe he killed Knox to cover the fact, and if that's so then I think Gun is farther gone that I thought..
Angel and Spike were great, I swear to god they are doing those scenes on purpose for the shippers, lmao all I can say is I can't wait for the next episode!
 
missed it!!!!!

my girlfriend is a huge angel fan and messed up setting the vcr tonight. i want to surprise her and get a copy of it. did anyone tape/record it that might have a vhs or even online copy i could get from them? she's really bummed she missed it.

any help is greatly appreciated!

cheers
christopher
 
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